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I think this topic has been done almost to death over the years. Basically the message is that a car - like any other machine - is meant to be used regularly. If it often sits idle, or just does short journeys, not often reaching full working temperature, it will need more frequent TLC to prevent deterioration. At the other end of the scale some cars will almost thrive on several hundred miles a week provided oil and filter are changed often enough.
Of course if you are looking to find an oldish car in showroom condition, low mileage may be more important. Those cars are not usually bought as daily drivers. But the price of a car usually reflects the apparent miles left in it, and little else.
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Sorry for bringing up a topic which has been "done almost to death", but it was fairly new to me, hence my question.
Thought provoking responses, not least the fairly obvious but nonetheless easily ignorable fact that a higher mileage, well serviced car is likely to be a better bet than a neglected low mileage example.
Many thanks.
Edited by argybargy on 15/01/2018 at 09:34
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Despite the "done to death" comments, it is never a bad thing to be reminded of the basics.
Particularly those who are, shall we say, relatively new the world of car ownership/buying.
The general consensus is a correct one....and each vehicle should be judged on its own merits..or otherwise.
Irrelevant of mileage, if the vehicle has had proven good care and maintenance then it's worth consideration...but I do agree that one should not be led into overpaying simply because of low mileage.
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The 'all the wear takes place during the cold start phase' is misleading. There will be just as many such phases in a car making two journeys of 5 miles a day as one making two journeys of 30miles a day, so I prefer low mileage oldsters to high mileage youngsters. I bought my Audi A8 at 8yrs old with only 49,000m - in four years it has cost me only an oil change and some roll bar bushes so far.
The best recipe for longevity is regular use ( at least once every two weeks if possible) and annual attention to maintenance and rust prevention. A cool dry garage also helps. Change the oil every 10-12,000m or five years. Annual oil change, so fiercely advocated by the garage trade, is completely unnecessary these days - my TR7 has had only four changes in the last 20yrs and is still in perfect working order at nearly 38yrs old. So is our Focus at 17yrs old - it takes nearly two years to do 12,000m these days.
A car is basically a machine - it either works or it doesn't. If it does, don't mend it. I am typing this listening to my 150yr old clock ticking away.......
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Sorry John but while I agree with some of what you say scrimping on a £50-£100 annual oil change is ill advised on any modern car. I’ve seen the results and many cars have been ruined by infrequent oil changes. It doesn’t save money, every penny saved is lost in added depreciation without proof of annual servicing and oil changes.
I was offered a very tidy 57 plate Renault Clio 1.2 recently by a young(ish) lass but while she’d kept it spotless inside and out she hadn’t serviced it in years believing the MOT to be all she required. The engine was close to seizure with oil like treacle clogging its arteries so I passed on it and I pity the poor soul who does buy it.
For those who read our ramblings but rarely post themselves I feel I have to point out the error in your thinking. Oil should be changed every year on any car but I’ll agree (in part) that I can understand why a rarely used classic like your TR7 could be an exception though I would personally change it for all the cost that’s involved. Oil degrades over time and moisture builds up along with particles of unburnt fuel and metal from engine wear, this all conspires to cause damage.
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Oil degrades over time and moisture builds up along with particles of unburnt fuel and metal from engine wear, this all conspires to cause damage.
I hesitate to disagree with our 'resident' guru SLO - and we are all running the risk of provoking a reply from Skidpan - but (as I think John F has said before) oil sitting in a cold dark sump will not degrade over time, nor will moisture 'build up'. With the important proviso that the rarely-driven car is always driven far enough to get its oil fully warmed through, and therefore relatively free of moisture. Moisture is the product of combustion, and we want it to leave via the exhaust, not to be mixed with lukewarm oil.
Cars which depart from this recommended behaviour can well end up like the Clio that SLO describes.
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and we are all running the risk of provoking a reply from Skidpan -
Not going to react to the flamebaiting above but I will instead reply based on personal experiece.
Myself and dad bought new Golfs a few months apart. Both kept them about 7 years. I did 113,000 miles in mine and did 60,000 miles in his. Apart from the usual service items mine needed new bearings in the diff (cost £350 inc a clutch while it was in bits - daft not to after 100,000 miles) and dads needed nothing. Mine did most of its miles on trips over 35 miles, dads was used mostly locally.
Which would you have bought?
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Oil degrades over time and moisture builds up along with particles of unburnt fuel and metal from engine wear, this all conspires to cause damage.
I hesitate to disagree with our 'resident' guru SLO - and we are all running the risk of provoking a reply from Skidpan - but (as I think John F has said before) oil sitting in a cold dark sump will not degrade over time, nor will moisture 'build up'. With the important proviso that the rarely-driven car is always driven far enough to get its oil fully warmed through, and therefore relatively free of moisture. Moisture is the product of combustion, and we want it to leave via the exhaust, not to be mixed with lukewarm oil.
Cars which depart from this recommended behaviour can well end up like the Clio that SLO describes.
Oil in a sump won't deteriorate from UV light but will still deteriorate from oxidation.
Moisture is also the product of condensation from the natural moisture content of ambient air.
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<< Oil in a sump won't deteriorate from UV light but will still deteriorate from oxidation. Moisture is also the product of condensation from the natural moisture content of ambient air. >>
There isn't any 'ambient air' in the closed sump of an idle engine, and the small amount of enclosed oxygen will soon disappear, if it does react with the oil once that is cold. A cold closed sump is chemically similar to the container the oil is sold in. BUT of course the more the oil gets churned round in a hot engine, the more it is exposed to hot combustion products. Hence the need for regular changes of oil.
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“I hesitate to disagree with our 'resident' guru SLO - and we are all running the risk of provoking a reply from Skidpan - but (as I think John F has said before) oil sitting in a cold dark sump will not degrade over time, nor will moisture 'build up'. ”
Feel free to disagree with me, I’ll not be upset I promise. But oil once out of its container and in an engine which is then used at all even on very low annual mileage will degrade. In fact pop the filler cap of many low mileage town runners and you’ll often see emulsified oil which happens when the moisture builds up as the oil never reaches full operating temperature. But yes, leave it in the container or in an engine that never runs and it will last I guess.
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My old sprinter motor home has done 191,258 miles and it starts first time, purrs up the motorway at 70mph with ease, accelerates briskly to overtake when someone gets in the way and returns 35mpg.
It is powered by the legendary 2.9 five cylinder engine otherwise known as the 'million miler'.
At the end of the day it is all down to care and maintenance. If it doesn't get any, it won't last long!!
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But yes, leave it in the container or in an engine that never runs and it will last I guess.
There is specific storage oil to put in engines that never run, its normally quite thick to stop it running off components and contains additives specific to storage. When I have built engines in the past that will stand a while before running I have coated the crank journals and cam journals with Graphogen (thick paste that will not run anywhere) and the bores with Torco assembly fluid which is sticky and easier to get a full coverage with on the bores than Graphogen. Never had a single issue. On my own engines that I know will run within a few weeks I have used Torco everywhere, less messy than Graphogen.
When I bought the crate Zetec for the Caterham the sump was filled with a thick green gloop that Ford had put there 6 years earlier. The instructions were to drain the sump, change the filter and refill with Ford spec 5w30. To ensure all the gloop was out after about 50 miles I drained the oil again and changed the filter, only about £16 for 5 litres of Ford spec oil so cheap insurance.
One chap on another forum ignored the instructions on Fords data sheet and that of the seller (he got his from the same seller as I did) and insited it was fine to simply use the oil in the sump. The daft part was he had to remove the sump to fit a raised one to suit his car, he then put the thick gloop back. He did about 30 miles before the engine blew. He blamed everone including Ford, the chap who he bought the riased sump off etc, every one but the idiot who had ignored all the advice. He ended up fitting a used one off ebay.
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Many thanks for subsequent posts: a fascinating discussion.
Haynes has it right for me: "Frequent oil and filter changes are the most important preventative maintenance procedures which can be undertaken by the DIY owner".
Whatever else I personally might have neglected or handed over to a professional because I lack the equipment to carry out the job, I've always made sure oil is changed regularly.
Its perhaps the first advice I would give to anyone new to the road and aspiring to do their own maintenance, regardless of mileage.
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“I hesitate to disagree with our 'resident' guru SLO - and we are all running the risk of provoking a reply from Skidpan - but (as I think John F has said before) oil sitting in a cold dark sump will not degrade over time, nor will moisture 'build up'. ”
Feel free to disagree with me, I’ll not be upset I promise. But oil once out of its container and in an engine which is then used at all even on very low annual mileage will degrade. In fact pop the filler cap of many low mileage town runners and you’ll often see emulsified oil which happens when the moisture builds up as the oil never reaches full operating temperature. But yes, leave it in the container or in an engine that never runs and it will last I guess.
Yes, of course it does. I have never seen mayonnaise on the TR7 filler cap. I should have added that when it does get driven and the engine gets warm, it's driven hard. Never letting an engine go much above 2000rpm is not good. Occasional 'Italian tune-ups' should be part of everyone's maintenance schedule! You will be pleased to know that I intend to change the oil this summer, even though it has done less than 5000m since its last change in April 2013. No top-up has been required.
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Change the oil every 10-12,000m or five years. Annual oil change, so fiercely advocated by the garage trade, is completely unnecessary these days - my TR7 has had only four changes in the last 20yrs and is still in perfect working order at nearly 38yrs old. So is our Focus at 17yrs old - it takes nearly two years to do 12,000m these days.
That regime is acceptable on an engine like your TR7, but I would not want to leave it that long on a modern turbocharged petrol chain cam engine with tiny sump and variable valve timing.
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Occasional 'Italian tune-ups' should be part of everyone's maintenance schedule!
Back in the days of carburettors, chokes and clockwork ignition even I used to give the car a good thrashing every couple of weeks if it had not been on a good long run (even then it was no bad idea) but with modern cars with fully mapped fueling and ignition I have yet to see a fouled plug. When I stripped a Mondeo Zetec with 63,000 miles the pistons tops and combustion chambers were pretty much like new. Even on a Mondeo Zetec of undetermined mileage (it had had one cam belt change for certain so if the Ford schedule had been followed it had done over 100,000 miles) it was still pretty clean but the facts that a couple of lifters and cam lobes were quite worn showed it had done some serious miles.
All an italian tune up does is waste fuel on a modern petrol, on a modern diesel it produces more soot to block the DPF.
Drive normally and follow the service intervals, its all a modern car needs.
That regime is acceptable on an engine like your TR7
Even on a less than classic classic like I TR7 I would never allow the oil to stay in 5 years. It does not need mega expensive POA synthetic, any good mineral is perfect and will cost well under £20 for a change.
Edited by skidpan on 16/01/2018 at 11:55
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Occasional 'Italian tune-ups' should be part of everyone's maintenance schedule!
Back in the days of carburettors, chokes and clockwork ignition even I used to give the car a good thrashing every couple of weeks if it had not been on a good long run (even then it was no bad idea) but with modern cars with fully mapped fueling and ignition I have yet to see a fouled plug. When I stripped a Mondeo Zetec with 63,000 miles the pistons tops and combustion chambers were pretty much like new. Even on a Mondeo Zetec of undetermined mileage (it had had one cam belt change for certain so if the Ford schedule had been followed it had done over 100,000 miles) it was still pretty clean but the facts that a couple of lifters and cam lobes were quite worn showed it had done some serious miles.
All an italian tune up does is waste fuel on a modern petrol, on a modern diesel it produces more soot to block the DPF.
Drive normally and follow the service intervals, its all a modern car needs..
Assuming that "italian tune-up" doesn't mean trying to bounce the revs off the rev limiter, I'd agree with John that an occasional one does every car good, especially those driven gently the rest of the time, for whatever reason.
I've found it a good policy with my two diesels once they got over their first 1,000 miles, mind you they get one anyway as I use full throttle during overtakes on single carriageway to minimise the time on the wrong side.
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