Mitsubishi ASX - Caught in a temporary speed limit - any way out? | Legal matters | Back Room Forum

Tue 4 Jul 2017 13:15

Mitsubishi ASX - Caught in a temporary speed limit - any way out? - Chezney

Hi all,
I live near Glastonbury festival and during this time they changed the limit through a local village from 50mph to 30mph. The first time I went on this road this festival season I got to the end of the land I come out of and was greeted by the usual two 50mph signs at the end of the road, not covered, no other speed limit signs (I have a photo of this just after I noticed/got caught by the mobile camera. I pulled on to the main road and saw the officer in a layby, thought it was odd, then noticed a plethora of 30 signs after him which raised my suspicions. I went back and checked for signage and took a photo of the 50 signs. On my second run a noticed a single (on the left side of the road) temporary 30 sign rotated about 45 degrees, between the lane I pulled out of and where the officer was. Busy road, I didn't get a photo of this. Got the notice through 12 days after the offence, 44mph in a '30' zone.

Is this going to be worth fighting?

Thanks in advance!

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Tue 4 Jul 2017 13:23

Mitsubishi ASX - Caught in a temporary speed limit - any way out? - RobJP

If it was 'adequately signposted', and if it was properly set up (i.e. legally done through the council, notified, etc.) then no, no chance at all.

By not taking a picture of the 'dubious' signpost positioning you've greatly weakened any case you might, possibly have had, because you've got no evidence that the sign was 'rotated', and thus not visible.

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Tue 4 Jul 2017 13:48

Mitsubishi ASX - Caught in a temporary speed limit - any way out? - gordonbennet

I have every sympathy, we've got so used to seeing myriad signs all over the place that they now almost a blur, worse are the yellow warning signs for impending works/diversions/temp limits which are ideally placed (sarc) where you're travelling at speed and with special congratulations to Wales here for having both languages, helpful, and with so much writing you haven't a hope in hell of reading them.*

As said without a pic of the actual first and presumably only sign, you are going to struggle here.

It might be worth posting on the local faceache group to see if other s got caught locally, if there are others it might be worth trying to get someone important to take it up with the authorities, though you will have limited time if you are going to have to accept the fixed penalty.

off topic for a mo, sorry, quick rant but it is pertinent cos three guesses who's most likely to be going there this Sunday.:-)

*They've stuck some yellow info signs on the A4094 going from Abergavenny down to Pontypool (a route i use around once a week), masses of writing in both languages and at points where you will be at speed, but luckily was able to spot the date, 9th July and guessed correctly it's the annual bike race which causes mayhem for miles around.

www.velothon.com/events/velothon-wales/the-event/c...x

map there for anyone likely to be affected

Edited by gordonbennet on 04/07/2017 at 13:50

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Tue 4 Jul 2017 14:16

Mitsubishi ASX - Caught in a temporary speed limit - any way out? - Chezney

Would a single sign, even if visible, been sufficient to indicate a change in speed limit?

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Tue 4 Jul 2017 14:58

Mitsubishi ASX - Caught in a temporary speed limit - any way out? - RobJP

Would a single sign, even if visible, been sufficient to indicate a change in speed limit?

Yes.

As long as the legal process had been gone through, and a sign was up, it is YOUR responsibility to comply with it. There is an 'out' IF the sign was not visible, (as you claim), but without some evidence to back up that claim, it's going to be laughed out of court, if it came to that.

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Tue 4 Jul 2017 17:07

Mitsubishi ASX - Caught in a temporary speed limit - any way out? - Dwight Van Driver

Musing of a very old traffic plod .........

By law any restriction has to be signed.

IN this case a temporary traffic order was made under Sect 16a Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 - temporay event speed limit and one should view this as it should set out chapter and verse what is involved in defined length (start and finish for signing) and may contain items on signing requirement.

A speed restriction has to be signed in accordance with signs stipulated in Traffic SIgns General Directions 2002.

Traffic Signs Manual No 3 (Regulationary Signs 2008) is the bible to LA as to how signing has to be done. Chapter 14 deals with speed limits.(This of interest to poster and should be read)

1.16 sight line of sign whole face should be preserved (Not in this case as 45 degree mentioned)

2.1 SIgning as prescribed -

14.7 both sides of road (unless exeption in Traffic Order ?)

14.1 IF not lawfully placed may be unenforceable.

All in all some points that could possibly be used in argument signing defective (may be nit picking I know?????) but these with as stated photo to provide visual submission as opposed to verbal would have enhanced any appeal.

The presence of Plod at scene does not imply lawfullness as it would be a miracle if they had inspected the traffic order before enforcing or even fully aware of Chaper 3 but it is prudent on them to ensure signing lawful before issuing FPN..

Back to nodding....zzzzzzzzz

dvd

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Tue 4 Jul 2017 23:21

Mitsubishi ASX - Caught in a temporary speed limit - any way out? - Chezney

Thanks for all the information guys. Is there any way I can check if the speed limit change was done lawfully?

Thanks

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Wed 5 Jul 2017 01:07

Mitsubishi ASX - Caught in a temporary speed limit - any way out? - RobJP

Yes. You ask the county council.

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Wed 5 Jul 2017 11:35

Mitsubishi ASX - Caught in a temporary speed limit - any way out? - skidpan

I live near Glastonbury festival and during this time they changed the limit through a local village from 50mph to 30mph.

Why don't you just accept that you broke the limit and pay the fine. Its there for a reason you know.

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Wed 5 Jul 2017 12:11

Mitsubishi ASX - Caught in a temporary speed limit - any way out? - Vitesse6

I live near Glastonbury festival and during this time they changed the limit through a local village from 50mph to 30mph.

Why don't you just accept that you broke the limit and pay the fine. Its there for a reason you know.

Why don't you read and understand the original post. There looks to be an element of doubt as to the legality of the speed limit signs.

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Wed 5 Jul 2017 12:33

Mitsubishi ASX - Caught in a temporary speed limit - any way out? - skidpan

I live near Glastonbury festival and during this time they changed the limit through a local village from 50mph to 30mph.

Why don't you just accept that you broke the limit and pay the fine. Its there for a reason you know.

Why don't you read and understand the original post. There looks to be an element of doubt as to the legality of the speed limit signs.

I have read the original post and its obvious to me that the OP is looking for a way out. He has no proof.

If he takes it further he will hopefully get a higher fine and more points for wasting court time.

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Wed 5 Jul 2017 12:39

Mitsubishi ASX - Caught in a temporary speed limit - any way out? - RobJP

Why don't you read and understand the original post. There looks to be an element of doubt as to the legality of the speed limit signs.

I don't think there is much doubt as to the legality of the signs. The OP could - IF they had taken pictures of the 'dubiously-placed' sign, have helped their case. But they didn't, so there is absolutely nothing to back up their assertion that the sign was not visible.

If this case goes to court, the OP will almost certainly lose - as things stand currently. Yes, it's possible that the temporary limit was not properly notified, and thus might not be valid. But all the time the OP is finding that information out, the clock is ticking.

It ticks long enough, they get a summons regardless.

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Wed 5 Jul 2017 18:11

Mitsubishi ASX - Caught in a temporary speed limit - any way out? - Falkirk Bairn

Locally a bridge over a railway had a weight limit put on it.

The bridge was strong enough to support a heavy lorry but was introduced to stop HGVs using the road which passed lots of houses. Over time dozens of lorries caught & the drivers fined.

Then, 5/6 years later an astute lawyer spotted an error in the paperwork. The signs were right, The road number was wrong - numbers transposed .............100+ drivers got their fines back.

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Wed 5 Jul 2017 20:47

Mitsubishi ASX - Caught in a temporary speed limit - any way out? - TedCrilly

Yes I believe it could be, but you need the help of a legal professional. Not the views and opinions from unqualified and anonymous individuals.

The first thing to determine is if a TRO (traffic regulation order) was put in place by the local roads authority and that its was valid at the time. If its a minor road probably the local council. The TRO in effect makes the reduced limit or any other alterations to road conditions a legality eg, parking, weight limits etc. Its a complicated procedure and for it to be valid its got to be done by the book, councils are lazy and cash strapped, it very rarely happens.

If the TRO was not valid and you can convince the magistrates the signs were not easily visible you have a strong case.......but hey....this just my opinion :)

Don't be put off, this place is not a font of free and more importantly RELIABLE legal advice!

Find a solicitor clued up on motoring law and have a chat with him/him, you might even get it for free.

Edited by TedCrilly on 05/07/2017 at 20:49

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Wed 5 Jul 2017 21:55

Mitsubishi ASX - Caught in a temporary speed limit - any way out? - Middleman

"Find a solicitor clued up on motoring law and have a chat with him/him, you might even get it for free."

Indeed. One thing you can rely on: you did not say if you were stopped at the time or what the "notice" you have received is. If you were not stopped at the time the notice will be a Notice of Intended Prosecution (NIP) and it will be accompanied by a Section 172 request for driver's details. You must respond to this (within 28 days) regardless of any issues you may have with the speeding allegation.Failure to do so constitutes a separate and unrelated offence for which the penalty is a hefty fine, six points and insurance grief for a number of years.

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Thu 6 Jul 2017 01:09

Mitsubishi ASX - Caught in a temporary speed limit - any way out? - Avant

"Is this going to be worth fighting?"

I really don't think so. With all the extra traffic going to and from the festival, driving along a road that most won't know, there seems to be a pretty good reason for lowering the speed limit during the time of the festival.

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Thu 6 Jul 2017 08:09

Mitsubishi ASX - Caught in a temporary speed limit - any way out? - TedCrilly

Obviously someone thought a reduced limit was justified at the time, otherwise an attempt wouldn't have been made to impose one.

It has nothing to do with the nature of the road itself. The question is if the temporary limit was imposed in accordance with the correct legal requirements and if the OP could be reasonably be expected to see the signage and have time enough to react. If it went to court those behind the TRO would have to prove it was in order and those behind the signage would have to prove it was sited reasonably. Easy? Hard?....Worth all the effort given the nature of the offence? This is bread and butter stuff!

Don't get me wrong, I have little time for those who break 'permanent' speed limits, temporary ones are a different matter.

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Thu 6 Jul 2017 08:41

Mitsubishi ASX - Caught in a temporary speed limit - any way out? - gordonbennet

Don't get me wrong, I have little time for those who break 'permanent' speed limits, temporary ones are a different matter.

That appears to be the general view out there, though not so sure many feel as you about the permanent ones either.

It might have been completed now (i'm on hol this week) but for the past few weeks there have been night time closures of the A45 between Northampton and Wellingborough, with 40mph order signs all along the unattended temporary surface during the day, i am one of the very few who sticks to 40 along that dualled section, 70/80 appear to be the speed of some with 60 or so the majority, unless there happens to be a police car travelling in which case everyone does 40..

I did wonder if the limit was legally binding, because the camera van that regularly sits on the bridge at Billing doing no good at all, could have made a killing had they sited it on the bridge near Doddington/Earls Barton.

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Thu 6 Jul 2017 19:31

Mitsubishi ASX - Caught in a temporary speed limit - any way out? - TedCrilly

Sorry should have said.....temporary limits that have not been imposed both legally and correctly.

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Thu 20 Jul 2017 15:48

Mitsubishi ASX - Caught in a temporary speed limit - any way out? - concrete

All the rhetoric about 'you broke the law, so pay up' seems misplaced. The law is there to be upheld by both parties involved. Those observing it and those enforcing it. If a legal traffic order specifies a limit on a certain section of road and also the signage to indicate that limit and make it abundantly clear is also specified, then that is what should be in place. Otherwise how does a motorist know, without doubt, that a traffic order is in place? It is encumbant upon the police to ensure the order is complied with in every detail, otherwise the order is unenforceable. DVD pointed out quite succinctly the process involved and as a ex traffic police officer I will follow his advice above others.( Nice to see you responding again DVD).

The arguments regarding the observance of speed limits are irrelevant to this situation. The OP clearly uses that road, with a 50mph limit, regularly. If a temporary order reduces that to 30mph it is wholly reasonable this is made extremely visible, so complying with the order and the law. If the OP did 44mph and the order is not complied with correctly then he is innocent of the offence of speeding. QED.

Personally I would be checking the details with the County Council Engineers office to see the signage requirements under the order. I would also request the camera footage from the speed camera as this may also indicate what and where the signage was. With this and what photographs you have taken you may well be able to mount a defence. As ever there are no guarantees that you will win, and the prevalent attitude is that the magistrate will usually back the police if any doubt exists. It is now up to the OP to decide if it is worth the effort. If good evidence exists for the defence then I would challenge the NIP and go to court. As GB pointed out a local Facebook enquiry may turn up others who have suffered too and may have some photographoc evidence to assist you. Good luck. Let us know what happens.

Cheers Concrete

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