Ahh, you may be missing the point slightly. The hybrids don't have gearboxes, driveshafts, clutch assemblies, etc. They charge a battery, and that battery sends power to electric motors at the wheels. So they save weight through not having all those components, and, whilst they have energy conversion losses, those losses are comparable to the losses that you would get through mechanical driven systems.

The Toyota Hybrid's have all those components, the generator and motor is built into the transmission housing.

And I don't see why a vehicle requiring a large heavy battery (heavy whether it is full or empty) will be more efficient than one with a fuel tank, which at least gets lighter as the content falls. And the energy is converted twice (with losses) instead of just once.

Ahh, you may be missing the point slightly. The hybrids don't have gearboxes, driveshafts, clutch assemblies, etc. They charge a battery, and that battery sends power to electric motors at the wheels. So they save weight through not having all those components, and, whilst they have energy conversion losses, those losses are comparable to the losses that you would get through mechanical driven systems.

I think you may be getting confused between hybrids and electric cars Rob, hybrids have all the same mechanical stuff as a normal car, plus the electric gubbins on top of that. So with the exception of the original (and brilliant) honda insight, hybrids are heavier than the comparable 'normal' car.

As for weight, the renault zoe is 1.5 tons, whereas our new honda jazz is nearly 400 kgs lighter despite offering more interior space and a bigger boot.

Self driving vehicles capable of making normal progress are years away, you won't recognise the country you live in by the time they happen if they ever do on normal roads where pedestrians and the ever more important cyclists have access.

Electric will be pushed more and more, though ultimately reliable continuous recharging will limit take up, unless they can make wireless charging over some distance possible or there is a fast apower pack replacement network up to the speed and efficiency of traditional fuel supplies, eg 10 mins max for a power pack swap 24/7.

Hybrids, especially Toyota, have proved themselves to be remarkably reliable long term, if they could design something that didn't hurt your eyes when you look at it they could wipe the floor with the competition, maybe someone like BMW will steal their thunder and do it instead.

I wonder if badge image will continue to have such an effect on car purchases in 20 years or so?

Did you see the news that they are not doing so well on sales? The president of Toyota said he understands the current product line up is 'boring' and hinted that they are going to start making some changes. I do hope it won't be more cars like the C-HR that is pig ugly.

Hardly surprised they can't sell them, or Lexus for that matter, how a company as conservative as Toyota passed off some of the recent designs for manufacture i shall never understand, clever cars don't need to look geeky.

Neither do you send someone down to the local accessory shop to buy unsold garish spoilers to nail on the front of what should be quietly handsome Lexus badged executive expresses.

Agree about the CHR, i've seen a few on the road now, and no it just doesn't work, Hilux is probably the neatest current vehicle together with Auris estate.

They can still do it. Camry for USA and Japan are good looking cars.

Edited by gordonbennet on 11/05/2017 at 17:49

Technically, yes, it is possible. It's called induction charging

Rob - as the expert - how much of the energy transmitted from the induction charger is captured, and how much escapes ?

Ha ! I'm certainly not an expert at all, I just know a little about it, mainly because it's also used for implanted medical devices - used with induction charging, the risk of infection is virtually eliminated, as there is no need for a physical connection between the implanted device and the charging system, so no need to break the skin.

As some of my work involves those medical devices, I need to have a passing knowledge of what's going on. But that's as far as it goes.

Solar panels to recharge car batteries are not really an option - save for maintaining low power drains - security, low level aircon etc.

A Nissan Leaf has a 24 or 30 KWh battery.

Yes, but that's good for over 100 miles - allegedly. So far today, despite the rain and cloud, my 14 panel array (admittedly a larger than average roof) has generated 5 kWh - plenty for a low mileage pensioner's trip to Sainsbury's. If you don't use the car every day, and lots of us retirees don't, it's a viable option, especially as progress will eventually produce better results.

Overhead cables are the answer, like trolley buses.

You'd just need a small battery pack for overtaking;)

"Power cables laid under all motorways and major A roads...."

Great idea - once installed. But can you imagine the chaos with all those brainless contractors digging up the motorways in their usual haphazard way and taking twice as long as budgeted. By the time they'd finished, someone would have invented new technology which made the cables obsolete.

Nothing in pipeline, it's already happened. Do you not find it more than coincidence that the lpg price tracks with unleaded. It used to be much cheaper then the taxman realised

In the last 12 months its been noticeably less than half the price of unleaded, and considerably less if you happen to be in one of the really cheap areas, a year or two ago and it was well over half the price of unleaded and i was worried it was on the way to 2/3rds.

I'm quite happy if its tracks unleaded and stays about half price, if it was too cheap lots of people would jump on the bandwagon and that would ruin it.

EV with range extenders could be the way to go. A mate has a BMW i3. Most of time just driven around his home county, batteries providing all the power he needs. Longer journeys with the 9 litre fuel tank are possible. Extra fuel is carried in case of emergencies in the boot. Recently 475 miles was covered in a day

Actually in front boot.

Worth remembering the late great Colin Chapman whose car manufacturing philosophy was "simplify and add lightness".

Lotus didn't always screw their cars together very well but when on song performed excellently.

Just to note that 300kg of L-ion batteries delivers about the same energy as 6kg of petrol, and that hybrid drive trains are a model of complexity.

Electric may become the motive power of choice one day but at the moment are way behind.

Amen to that!

Far too many cars these days are too big and too heavy, far more than necessary. I read a short piece by (the equally great) Gordon Murray this morning in April's top gear magazine, basically complaining, rightly so in my opinion, about manufacturers focusing solely on performance 'targets', instead of how the car drives and feels. Weight is of course, a major factor in Gordon's design ethos, and pointed out a few eye openers. 1st of these being that the bugatti veyron needed an extra 565bhp to exceed the top speed of the F1 and weighed 750kg more!. Also, the fact that porsches much lauded 'hypercar', the 918, has a lower power to weight ratio than the F1!.

Back in the real world though, a few years ago when looking into our next new car, i was quite taken by the nissan note, particularly its low kerbweight. Unfortunately, my Wife has the final say (it is her motability car), and she went for the vauxhall meriva, which weighed over 300kg more than the nissan despite offering very little extra interior space!. We just recently took delivery of our latest car, a honda jazz (cvt), amongst the things which appealed to me was the kerbweight of just under 1100kg. Now the closest polo to our jazz is the 1.2tsi 90 dsg7, it weighs 40kgs more despite being smaller and having much less interior space. Of course, the winner in the 'svelte' supermini category is the mazda 2 at over 100kg less than the jazz, but the smaller interior and boot coupled with the lower seat height put us off.

Gordon Murray has been working on the T25 microcar (and its T.27 electric version) for several years, the first prototype being unveiled in 2010. Examples of both cars have been around since 2010. The car was supposed to have been launched last year but still we only see occasional mentions of it in the motoring press.

In about the same timeframe the Tesla Model S has gone from a concept prototype (2009) to selling over 150,000 cars by last autum.

Dont get me started on the T25!. It is such a crying shame that such a brilliant piece of design is not now in production. But such is the value of image over everything else car related these days that no manufacturer is willing to take on the T25 (it looks funny). very low weight, very safe, brilliant packaging, brilliant handling (due to the very low centre of gravity). I quite like the smart fortwo, but the T25 is light years ahead of it in every way that matters.

In a way it puts me in mind of the brilliant fiat ecobasic concept from back in about 2000. A very cleverly designed and basic 'green' car, before the term really started to be thought of and used. Around 750kg in weight, a full 4 seater and powered by a 1.2 turbo diesel, it would have been classed as a 3l in the EU fuel consuption (ie, 3l of fuel per 100km, or around 90mpg). A large portion of the car would have been made out of recycledmaterials, and the body panels were colour impregnated plastic (so no paint), fiat said they could produce and sell it at a profit, for around £4k. But of course, it looked funny, people wouldnt buy it!.

Hey ho, rant over!

"Just to note that 300kg of L-ion batteries delivers about the same energy as 6kg of petrol, and that hybrid drive trains are a model of complexity."

And very reliable - much more so that ic cars - If made by Toyota...

Edited by madf on 15/05/2017 at 16:01

next car trend is a horse and cart

The Murray T.25 / T.27 is indeed an interesting concept and I quite like the look of it. But in the end it's a microcar, smaller than a Smart. As an engineering solution it might be brilliant, but is it aiming at a non-existent market sector?

A microcar, in the past, was something essentially tiny, with a tiny engine which offerd all the crash protection of an empty crisp packet. These days, it refers to small, usually French runabouts with 2 cylinder petrol or diesel engines mated to a cvt gearbox. And they dont offer anything like the same level 0f protection in a crash as most of us now expect in a car. So to refer to the T25/T27 as such is both extremely innacurate on the whole, and insulting to Gordon Murray's design genius. The T25/T27 has been proven to offer b segment levels of crash protection (like a fiesta, or polo). it is smaller than a smart car because it has been more inteligently designed, not because it is aimed at a different market. It offers 50% more seating capacity along with crash protection levels at least as good as the fortwo, so there is no reason it couldnt steal sales from it. If that is, a car company were brave enough to give it a go.