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must admit I do wonder who is buying the type of cars I listed (530D, 320CDI, D5) Theres alot for sale and prices seem to have fallen through the floor.....
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I asked why there are so few old cars on the road now, do they not last as long, they dont rust any more so where are they? He said only a small persentage of cars pass the 10 year point.......
There are in fact more old cars on our roads than ever. The average age of cars on our roads has never been as high as now; see snippets below.
The report commissioned by the SMMT from analysts Frost and Sullivan is called 'The Importance of the UK Aftermarket to the UK economy' and states: 'The average age of UK cars is 7.8 years – well below the European average of 9.4 years – but will rise to 8.1 years by 2022.
The average age of a car at scrappage in 2015 reached 13.9 years, which is on a par with the 2014 performance. The lowest scrappage age, 13 years, was recorded in 2009, a result of government’s scrappage scheme.
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I asked why there are so few old cars on the road now, do they not last as long, they dont rust any more so where are they? He said only a small persentage of cars pass the 10 year point.......
There are in fact more old cars on our roads than ever. The average age of cars on our roads has never been as high as now; see snippets below.
The report commissioned by the SMMT from analysts Frost and Sullivan is called 'The Importance of the UK Aftermarket to the UK economy' and states: 'The average age of UK cars is 7.8 years – well below the European average of 9.4 years – but will rise to 8.1 years by 2022.
The average age of a car at scrappage in 2015 reached 13.9 years, which is on a par with the 2014 performance. The lowest scrappage age, 13 years, was recorded in 2009, a result of government’s scrappage scheme.
The average scrappage age of 14 years has remained remarkably constant for around half a century - the improved longeveity has been matched by changes in the economic write-off rate.
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Older diesels will dwindle in number over time, as will older petrol cars too. Newer engines of both types are cleaner and more efficient but with the rapidly improvements in battery technology that we've seen recently, electric vehicles are likely to take an increasing market share.
Older diesels will eventually become such a small part of the vehicle population that nobody will worry too much about their emissions as long as they're not pouring out black smoke.
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I think the rest of the world are living on finance on instagram facebook and snapchat in cloud cookoo land
I run older vehicles from the 90s and I dont get any this waffle that people talk about on these forums . I dont reconse all the problems on here I fix them myself in my own workshop and take good care of them
I dont spend much money on them and they look after me
This is just a thing that people like to look flash and are just above their station
Poeple in the industry just want you to buy new and guess what . Everybody is dumb enough to buy into it
I love my cars but I dont spend money on them and I have got more money than you because of it !
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Oh dear, There is so much wrong with the last post. JEREMYH is clearly stuck totally in the 90's, or should it be in the 'I've got loads a money' eighties.
Personally I don't use much of the said social media sites but do appreciate the benefits if used in moderation.
I also enjoy the comfort, efficiency and Safety features new cars bring. I I also own a nineties Alfa Romeo that brings me great pleasure. But when I drive it I appreciate the progress that has been made in car design.
Live and let live I say, but if we all did the same thing life would be pretty dull and I'm not sure there would be enough 90's cars to go round (thank goodness).
One last point sir, you have no idea how much money I have or anyone else on this forum for that matter - And to be honest I don't care, I am happy with my lot, surely that's all that counts.
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You may the exeption to the rule
I have a perfect measure of the money on here because
They keep asking about finance .This means they dont have money
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I used to buy cheaper cars that I could afford to pay outright for. I hated being in debt.
Three and a half years ago my husband of 28 years was diagnosed with terminal cancer and died. It changed the fundamental way I looked at life. I realised that life turned on a sixpence and there were no guarantees that you would make tomorrow, never mind old bones or retirement.
So I decided to do all the things that I had planned for our retirement now. Not to wait until I was old or (perhaps) too sick to do them. If that means taking out a loan to buy a sports car then fine. I travel. A lot. I have a house that if it all goes tits-up I can sell and downsize.
I want to live now, today not squirrel it all away and pay it to some care home.
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I used to buy cheaper cars that I could afford to pay outright for. I hated being in debt.
Three and a half years ago my husband of 28 years was diagnosed with terminal cancer and died. It changed the fundamental way I looked at life. I realised that life turned on a sixpence and there were no guarantees that you would make tomorrow, never mind old bones or retirement.
So I decided to do all the things that I had planned for our retirement now. Not to wait until I was old or (perhaps) too sick to do them. If that means taking out a loan to buy a sports car then fine. I travel. A lot. I have a house that if it all goes tits-up I can sell and downsize.
I want to live now, today not squirrel it all away and pay it to some care home.
Good on you - I've been through two life-threatening health issues and the time spent lying in a hospital bed was a trigger for getting my life into perspective and doing all the things now before it's too late - I regard gifts to my son and his family as "advances on their inheritance"
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But to be fair, Jeremy has a very valid point, in that I believe about 80% of new cars on the road are borrowed or leased. This can only be sustained while interest rates are almost zero, as soon as they inevitably rise, the economics of car ownership will have to shift again, as the 3 year PCP becomes more expensive. I know of people with next to no income driving brand new cars around here, it's bizarre!
Back onto the subject of diesels, I expect some kind of scrappage scheme for the early diesels up to about Euro 4, to get them off the road a bit quicker, Later, less polluting stuff may escape, but the huge complexity of maintaining all the emission technology on them will make them non cost effective to own after a few years, as mentioned above. It's a great shame for what is the most efficient ICE design.
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Im sticking my neck out here but I dont think anything much will happen to old Diesels. No scrappage no dramatic jump in tax but they may well be kept out of city centres. Polution from diesel is only an issue in cities where it gets trapped , for the other 90% of us its not really an issue. My local council has an air quality monotoring station 25m from a very big junction that has hundreds of vehicles standing waiting to get through, but the NOx and particulate levels are low even at peak hour traffic. Nox reacts with other thing in the atmasphere and is gone in a short period of time, it does not build up. Also there is growing concern over petrol that could be even worse.
https://www.transportenvironment.org/press/new-petrol-engines-cause-more-air-pollution-dirty-diesels
I stood on a pedestrian foot bridge yesterday watching the traffic on a trunk road and this thread came to mind. Few old cars passed, an oldTransit van, a Sharan and half a dozen very old camper vans. There were no "ordinary " cars like Astras, Focuss or run of the mill stuff. but then maybe old cars are just used for local stuff.
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I also enjoy the comfort, efficiency and Safety features new cars bring. I I also own a nineties Alfa Romeo that brings me great pleasure. But when I drive it I appreciate the progress that has been made in car design.
I'm not sure how you 'enjoy' the Safety features of a car. The only time safety features come into play, there is usually little enjoyment.
And certainly progress has been made in car design, but not all of it for the better. Since the millennium every car maker has felt it necessary to make cars fatter, higher and therefore heavier. Most roads have not become wider to accommodate this, and some owners find difficulty in keeping off the centre line. And as for country lanes (which I use quite often) these mini-juggernauts are just a ***** nuisance.
But on topic, older cars can be perfectly serviceable if they are looked after. Many owners stop doing that when the car is perceived to have little 'value'.
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But on topic, older cars can be perfectly serviceable if they are looked after. Many owners stop doing that when the car is perceived to have little 'value'.
That's it, really.
If your ancient Passat 1.9TDi is worth £500, are you really going to spend £300 on getting the cambelt, tensioners and waterpump done on it, or are you going to just cross your fingers and keep on running it.
More to the point, most people running at that end of the market do not have the spare £300 to get that work done.
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I do get your points, both of you.
What is wrong in getting a new car via leasing/hp if you can afford the payments?
A lot of people want hassle free motoring and don't want to spend every weekend tinkering with an old wreck just to keep it on the road.
I do agree that a lot of people with catch a serious cold with leasing or pcp, i.e. Over mileage, vehicle neglect or simply being unaware or unwilling to take out GAP insurance in case of total loss.
My reply to the post was really to do with your boasting that you have more money than other people.
Lots of folk buy old wrecks because they have no choice.
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Nothing will happen to them. Pre EU4 diesels are mostly older than 12 years already. Cars like 2000-2005 530d and Volvo D5 are already in the £1k-£4K price bracket depending on mileage and condition.
Yes, there is s strong demand for them, as there always is in this price range but over the next few years they will dwindle down to scrap value and disappear from our roads as old cars always do.
A heck of a lot of cars like this end up in Eastern Europe btw - either still on the road or for parts.
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A lot of people want hassle free motoring and don't want to spend every weekend tinkering with an old wreck just to keep it on the road. .... Lots of folk buy old wrecks because they have no choice.
If a car is genuinely 'an old wreck' then no, it probably isn't worth fixing. My point is that cars can be prevented from becoming an old wreck by relatively low-cost maintenance, little and often. I'm sure some owners spend more than they need on PCPs and the like.
Take your point about those who can't afford anything more than the fuel to drive an old banger.
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There's some of us who find the latest car offerings of no attraction whatsoever, nothing to do with how much money we may or may not have, i can't think of anything mainstream for sale new here that i would want as an all expenses gift and that's without considering all the electronic faff that i've spent my life avoiding and blowed if i'm going to buy into now.
As said above, we're not all the same, and long may that be allowed.
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I love cars but boy do I hate losing money on them so after a few painful lessons in my 20's with daft pricey and surprisingly troublesome motors I switched to bangernomics. The idea is to buy and run a car over a year or more with no loss or as little as possible.
Before hierarchy demanded a new panzerwagen to accommodate her and junior and something capable of fulfilling her typical female need to look down on everyone I was happily pottering around in a series of cheap motors all bought for less than £2k (some as low as £300) and sold more often than not for a profit after I tired of them and this despite being perfectly financially able to buy new.
I find it liberating running a good cheap car. While I now find myself having to strategically park our CRV and having a fit if I see even the slightest scuff, I park and drive a heap without worry and I've yet to be let down by one.
Depreciation is the biggest cost faced by most motorists but it can with a little knowhow and an open mind be completely eliminated.
The real point I'm on about despite the rambling is that you can't judge a persons financial position by the car they drive. I know multi millionaires who drive bangers and I know people two steps from the poor house running brand new BMW's on PCP's.
Edited by SLO76 on 30/03/2017 at 20:39
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This is my point I can look after them well at a fraction of the cost of linning the pockets of the banks.
I have a y reg toyota Privia D4D 260 K on the clock I do mega miles in it ,it never lets me down
I have a lovely 1996 blue saab 900 convertible shinny and gleaming with nice grey leather seats love this car and would not drive anything else at weekends . Everybody says what a nice car it is They dont say that when I have a new car on hire for work !
I run vans for my business old ones ! As already self promoted by myself on here I run the C15 van doing the highest miles in the UK now So we know our stuff when it comes to old gear .
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SLO76 a man after my own heart lol. I have always run what others would call bangers and fixed them myself but I always knew that the day would arrive when a car that I have would be DIY not fixable and I'm nearly there! Currently I run an 05 Galaxy TDI. had it over 2 yrs bought with 120K now with 150K, its sailed through MOTs and has never let me down apart from some minor niggles. My next car to continue my trend would logically be around 08 and thats where i think I will struggle to DIY much so what to do......
IMO many many people kid themselves that older cars are unrelaible and will cost a fortune to repair. Its not been my experience at all. More to do with looks and image methinks!
PS as the OP here, some good info in the thread, thanks!
Edited by Matt@ on 30/03/2017 at 21:33
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"My next car to continue my trend would logically be around 08 and thats where i think I will struggle to DIY much so what to do......"
I'd say there's still plenty of scope for cheapo motoring as long as you keep it simple. Modern diesels are a nightmare for budget motoring but there's plenty of pretty much bulletproof normally asperated petrol engined metal around that should keep the bangernomics flame a burning for many years to come.
Honda, Toyota and especially Mazda who've shunned downsizing and turbocharging all build motors I'd have total faith in at 10yrs and 100k plus.
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Subaru too for the long haul, specially if AWD is your thing, designed to be worked on not just built, well apart from spark plug changes which are a PITA.
Toyota have disappointed me in two ways, one they saddled Avensis with an electric parking brake, two even on my 2005 Landcruiser they've removed the auto gearbox dipstick, unforgiveable, and and number three, why are they beating all their latest designs (especially Lexus) with the ugly stick.
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Subaru too for the long haul, specially if AWD is your thing, designed to be worked on not just built, well apart from spark plug changes which are a PITA.
Toyota have disappointed me in two ways, one they saddled Avensis with an electric parking brake, two even on my 2005 Landcruiser they've removed the auto gearbox dipstick, unforgiveable, and and number three, why are they beating all their latest designs (especially Lexus) with the ugly stick.
If ever there was an exampe of pointless engineering it is the electronic parking brake. Was pulling a lever that much of a chore? Almost guaranteed to go wrong at some point and totally agree regards Toyota's styling. They make good motors but imagine if they looked good too. Less money on daft electronic fripperies and hire a good design team Toyota.
Edited by SLO76 on 30/03/2017 at 22:54
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Want to throw away a shed load of money? Buy a new car.
Want to do the opposite? Buy the opposite.
A work colleague used to do the former, now does the latter. Mortgage paid off, now has more money to donate to good causes, that at one time he gave to gin palace car dealerships.
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I need a big estate but dont want the fuel cost of petrol!
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I need a big estate but dont want the fuel cost of petrol!
Skoda Superb 1.4 tsi ?
Economy:- www.spritmonitor.de/en/detail/720963.html
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Depends on your mileage? Bangernomics doesn't work NOW in high mileage circumstances as repair bills on modern cars outway savings on the purchse price. The older diesels that used to last are now getting too old (pre DPF VAG pd engines were great!! - 10 year DPF engines , good luck!)
Buying "carefully" does work. Last of an old model nearly new can be cost effective long term. I always aim for less than £100/month capital cost (Last car was 18month old Skoda Superb 1.9pd - kept for 10 years now 190k miles , cost £8200 - latest Skoda Superb 1.4tsi cost just over £10k at 14months old)
I've got some very sad costings going back many years as I've had longish commutes since 1989!! I live in Yorkshire so I've honed my tightness skills!
Edited by Big John on 30/03/2017 at 23:41
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Let's not forget the malevolent effect "Road Tax" has on the market. We used to have a 2.5 litre xtrail. 2003 cost about 300 quid a year. If it was a 2005 say this shoots up to 500 quid a year. When your car is only worth a few thousand 500 quid is large percentage to find every year. So you chop it in or scrap it in favour of something cheaper. Despite it having years of life left in it. I expect old diesels to go the same way.
Very green I'm sure. But that's what's driving the lack of older vehicles..imo. Stupid government policies pandering to the green lobby. Better to get us all in cheaply made tin boxes with asthmatic weedy engines and owing finance companies for the privilege.
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... When your car is only worth a few thousand 500 quid is large percentage to find every year. So you chop it in or scrap it in favour of something cheaper. Despite it having years of life left in it. I expect old diesels to go the same way.
So you spend several thousand with a part-ex, to save a few measly hundred a year? That's a no-brainer (literally, unless the part-ex has other problems of course).
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Let's not forget the malevolent effect "Road Tax" has on the market. We used to have a 2.5 litre xtrail. 2003 cost about 300 quid a year. If it was a 2005 say this shoots up to 500 quid a year. When your car is only worth a few thousand 500 quid is large percentage to find every year. So you chop it in or scrap it in favour of something cheaper. Despite it having years of life left in it. I expect old diesels to go the same way.
Very green I'm sure. But that's what's driving the lack of older vehicles..imo. Stupid government policies pandering to the green lobby. Better to get us all in cheaply made tin boxes with asthmatic weedy engines and owing finance companies for the privilege.
That £500 step is ridiculous. It means that a lot of perfectly good cars will be ignored that could be used. I can't believe that many people who buy a car with higher emissions and thirst will be driving 20-30k a year, so it wouldn't make much difference to the environment in the grand scheme of things, compared to other transport that has already been discussed on here countless times.
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I've got some very sad costings going back many years as I've had longish commutes since 1989!! I live in Yorkshire so I've honed my tightness skills!
LOL Come up to Scotland Big John and we will show you how to do that properly.
I agree than running a newish car need not be as costly as some claim and in the odd ocasion it can be very cheap. A golf bought at big discount monthes after the new model was on sale sold after two years for £200 less than it cost. A Mazda MX5 bought as a terminated lease at 18 months, sold after 4 years for £400 less and I could have sold half a dozen of them such was the demand. So it can be done with some wise buying and a dolop af good luck.
Running a 1997 car, now 20 years old, is a totaly different proposition to buying a 2017 car now and keeping it till 2037. One report on this site of a £1200 bill to replace a NOx sensor and fitting it is a job beyond most of us DIY mechanics.
I like new cars, its something that gives me pleasure. I ran mew cars even when I was spending my weekends repairing and servicing older cars for family and friends, it helped pay for my new cars and I quite enjoyed it but I dont any more so I dont do it.
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I ran mew cars
Very small jaguars? :-)
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I ran mew cars
Very small jaguars? :-)
LOL Like it a lot 72 dudes
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LOL Come up to Scotland Big John and we will show you how to do that properly.
Quite a lot of my team at work are Scottish - The Scottish/Yorkshire combo certainly helps our negotiation skills!!
As for the future of old diesels - the pre DPF ones are getting old now. Early DPF cars had varible quality implementations - some where the DPF was way down the exhaust (too cool!).Recent DPF implementations much more reliable as they are close coupled to the engine (better for active regens) however as the engine gets old ash production will increase filling the DPF quicker between expensive replacements.
The latest diesels have much more complex/water cooled EGR valves and some now have SCR(adblue). Effectively you have many £1000's of parts(&labour to replace) integrated with the exhaust (on any car try undoing exhaust bolts after a few years!!) - this will get expensive as the years advance. Cars that can't achieve passive regens now perform more active regens - which can hit the mpg and start polluting sump oil with diesel as the engine wears, causing more wear - etc.....
Currently most petrols just have a catalytic converter - but beware the GPF is coming our way this year on some versions (will just be passive regen though)
My old 2003 Superb diesel still going strong with it's new owner
Edited by Big John on 31/03/2017 at 21:31
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Agree, you need something pre DPF preferably without a DMF to make the economics of bangernomics stand up on a diesel but it's still possible. I ran a 53 plate Mitsubishi Carisma 1.9 DiD for a year and over 15,000. Cost me £700, spent in total £370 on repairs, a service and an Mot and flogged it for £1,000 to a fella who's added another 12k or so so far without a hitch.
But yes for bangernomics to make sense on more modern motors you really need to avoid any unnecessary tech and that largely means sticking to normally asperated petrol and avoiding premium brands with inflated parts prices and lower availability of aftermarket bits and bobs.
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My current car is a Eu4 diesel with a DPF and a DMF. It has 196217 miles on the clock as of this morning. Both are original.
There are certain cars which are prone to early DMF failure but many go for serious miles unless they are driven by someone who can't drive! (Which is often the reason for "premature" failure).
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My current car is a Eu4 diesel with a DPF and a DMF. It has 196217 miles on the clock as of this morning. Both are original.
There are certain cars which are prone to early DMF failure but many go for serious miles unless they are driven by someone who can't drive! (Which is often the reason for "premature" failure).
Largely agree and I've never personally had any issue with either however it is very commonplace, often at surprisingly low mileages. You also have no knowledge of how the car was driven by its last owner/owners and at this budget end of the spectrum it's best to avoid any unnecessary complexity. I agree that a well driven and cared for modern diesel bought from new or nearly new could still run to extremely high mileages, I see them regularly as taxis. In fact I was in a four year old skoda Superb 2.0 TDi with over 250k the other night that the owner said hadn't seen any major work and it felt very tight from the passenger seat.
But speak to other drivers with Mondeo's, Pug 407's and Insignias and you'll hear of plenty of woe regarding failed turbochargers, knackered DMF's, often before 70k on the Ford and DPF problems particularly on the big Fiat engined Vauxhall.
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All I can say to that is my 7 yeard old 407SW diesel auto is doing very well thanks, with no bills other than normal servicing and tyres. I plan on keeping it for a few more years yet.
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All I can say to that is my 7 year old 407SW diesel auto is doing very well thanks, with no bills other than normal servicing and tyres. I plan on keeping it for a few more years yet.
Ditto my 2008 207SW diesel. No doubt some do go wrong, but mine hasn't so far. But in its defence, it has no DPF.
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Cant say Im so pesemistic about DPF life, things are getting better and inproving all the time. On my previous car the DPF was like a silencer box under the car but my current car has a combined DPF and catalyst bolted straight on to the cylinder head so it will run hotter and regenerate more readily. Im not absolutly sure but it also looks as if the gas feeding the EGR valve comes out after the DPF so it will be clean with no soot. Will this last longer? time will tell. Some of the DPF cleaning systems look pretty good now at removing the ash build up, expensive at £600 but then a friend just spent more than that replacing the timming belt on a sporty Clio. I live in hope.
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