We had a 118D for 5 1/2 very happy years. It was a 2008 08 car, 143 PS and never left us wanting more. Averaged about 47 mpg over the years we had it. Might not sound great but it was 8 mpg better than a Mondeo with 13 less PS so we saw it as a massive improvement.

Before we bought it we tried the 120D just to make sure we bought the right car. We did not find a great deal of difference in normal driving (certainly not £2000 worth) but it should be noted that the cars have very different gearing. The 118D is much longer geared not only in top but all the intermediates which can resulty in dropping 2 gears instead of the one you might have to drop in the 120D, no deal breaker for us and once you are in the right gear the 118D goes well enough, you soon learn which gear is needed for the occational overtake. But this means that the 118D is a much more relaxed cruiser which is a feature you soon learn to enjoy. At motorway speeds there is no need to drop gears to change lane etc, 6th is just fine.

Ours was on 17" wheels with standard suspension and the ride was fine. But we had 16" wheels with winter tyres and it must be said the car felt much nicer with those on so I would recommend 16" wheels to any buyer.

With all these cars condition and history is vital. Don't be tempted to buy cheap, it will cost £ssssss extra in the long term.

What is your budget? Any 10 year old car is a potential money pit but at that age it won't have a DPF. Still has a DMF though and if its the original expect a big bill soon.

Edited by skidpan on 12/01/2017 at 09:27

Thanks for that guys ( and ladies )

We would be buying an 06/07 car for about £5k. My wife just wants something a bit more stylish an dlikes the beamers

However, after seeing your comments I am beginning to wonder

What about a used 3 series vs C Class vs A4

Skidpan... please read the thing starting from section 7. 7.1. For light duty vehicles (cars and light vans)

OK, I have read it again.

7.7.1 refers to light duty vehicles (cars and light vans) because that is what Directives referred to relate to.

BUT

7.3 clearly states "These regulations give effect to this derogation for category N1 class I, N2 and N3 vehicles"

and

7.4 states "...offers two possibilities for end of series derogation in respect of category N (goods) vehicles:...."

No mention of M class passenger vehicles at all.

On page 5 it gives the definitions of a category N vehicle but not of a category M vehicle.

So like I said before its nothing to do with passenger vehicles (M2, M2 and M3) its only light commercials (N1, N2 and N3).

I could go on giving examples of Category N only references but surely the above are sufficient.

You're wrong on this skidpan.

Afraid not.

The document is clear.

No point discussing further.

Even your beloved Honda cannot manipulate the law for their own requirements.

There is a point in discussing further skidpan as this question will pop up regularly and you'll continue to give flawed inaccurate answers based on this.

What worries me is you continue to tell potential buyers that some cars did not have a DPF when the law clearly required them to have one.

I will say it again, the document clearly states that the exemptions are only for N1, N2 and N3 vehicles. I spent years reading and modifying legal documents (not motor industry) for specific needs and if any company had tried to claim that such a docuemnt included M1 vehicles they would have lost.

Any class M1 passenger vehicle registered from 01 January 2011 onwards not fitted with a DPF should be removed from the road.

SLO76

Please stop posting links to irrelevant documents.

The one above was published in March 2012, 15 months after the final implementation date for Euro 5.

Your 2nd quote is for low volume production vehicles such as Morgans and Caterhams so odes not apply to mainstream cars.

Need I say more.

And where in the following does it mention anything regarding low volume manufacturers? "You may apply for an extra 12 months in which to register vehicles that do not comply with any new standard as shown on the calendar above. Derogation will be for up to 10% of the total number of the manufacturer’s vehicles registered during the previous 12 months of the into-force date of the new standard. Vehicles must be manufactured before the into force date of the new standard. Where 10% would be less than 50, 50 vehicles may be derogated."

Perhaps if you read the document you would have spotted that the section you quote has a heading

"For Car National type approval (Low-volume approved category M1 vehicles (cars) exempted from the requirements of ECWVTA)"

10% of Morgan sales in the UK would probably be 25 cars or less thus I can understand why there is a allowance, would probably amount to 50 as stated above.

For the record there are threads on the Civic forum relating to removing DPF on UK 2.2 CDT's as early as 08 plate. If the engine was never fitted with a DPF why would thay be having problems and wanting it out of the way. Surely the experts on the site would be saying there is no DPF if that is a fact.

I will repeat myself once more then simply give up if others cannot understand the simple text in the link below that was posted by SLO76.

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2011/427/pdfs/uksiem_2...f

Below is a slection of clauses but I would suggest anyone reads the full document to show I have carried out no selective editing.

2. Purpose of the Instrument

2.1. These Regulations define the conditions under which goods vehicles in categories N1 Class 1, N2 and N3 may be regarded as end of series vehicles and consequently be entitled to an exemption from compliance with new emissions standards for 12 months after those standards are introduced

2.2. For category N1 class 1 vehicles the relevant date from which new emissions standards took effect was 1 January 2011, and for classes N2 and N3 vehicles the relevant date is 31 December 2013

Please find where there is any mention of passenger vehicles category M in the above clause, it only goods vehicles in cetegory N.

4.2. In the case of category N1 class 1 vehicles (car-derived vans) that have been type-approved to the Euro 4 emission standard, the derogation is from the Euro 5 standard that took effect on 1 January 2011. For categories N2 and N3 vehicles (heavy goods vehicles) that have been type-approved to the Euro V standard, the derogation is against the requirements of the Euro VI standard that will take effect after 31 December 2013

All category N again.

7.1. For light duty vehicles (cars and light vans), Directive 70/220/EEC as last amended by Directive 2002/80/EC prescribed emission standards for vehicles at the level of Euro 4. This directive has been superseded by Regulation EC No 715/2007 that introduces the Euro 5 and Euro 6 emissions limits. Article 10 of Regulation EC No 715/2007 requires that new vehicles in N1 Class 1 shall comply with the Euro 5 emission limits from 1 January 2011. For heavier duty goods vehicles in categories N2 and N3, the relevant directives 2005/55/EC, 2005/78/EC, and 2006/51/EC will be superseded by Regulation EC No 595/2009 that requires that new vehicles shall comply with the emission limits of Euro VI after 31 December 2013.

7.2. Where a manufacturer has not placed on the market all vehicles complying with a previous emission standard (Euro 4 or Euro V) by the date from which the new limits (Euro 5 and Euro VI) apply, paragraph B of Annex XII of the framework Directive 2007/46/EC on vehicle type-approval permits Member States to apply “end of series” derogations to enable those vehicles to continue to be registered and to enter into service for up to 12 months from the date of implementation of a new standard. The purpose of this provision is to ease to the management of stock in the transition to new emissions standards.

7.3. These regulations give effect to this derogation for category N1 class I, N2 and N3 vehicles to prevent costs which vehicle manufacturers would incur road if remaining stocks of Euro 4 and Euro V vehicles could not be registered for use. Fuller details are given in the attached Regulatory Impact Assessment.

7.1 refers to light duty vehicles simply because that is what the directives are dealing with.

But

7.3 clearly states that the delay in implementing Euro 5 for end of run vehicles is for N1 class 1, N2 and N3, again absolutely no mention of category M vehicles.

7.4. Paragraph B of Annex XII of Directive 2007/46/EC offers two possibilities for end of series derogation in respect of category N (goods) vehicles:

This clause discusses the alternatives but its clearly only refering to category N (goods) vehicles

On pages 8 to 20 there are many regerences makde the category N vehicles but none is made to Category M vehicles.

Please read the full linked document and enlighten me where its relevant to a Honda Civic which is in Category M1.

When we bought the wifes previous car mid 2010 we wanted another diesel to replace the C-Max but did not want a DPF due to her 5 mile commute across town. We were very flexible on brands and even considered petrols to avoid the DPF but all had issues for us.

We even visited the Honda showroom having been totally underwealmed with a test drive a Civic 2.2 diesel in 2007 (mainly because of the stupid tyres and stupid test drive route - 3 miles of speed humps in a 4 mile drive!!!!!). Said we did not want a DPF and all he could offer were (well) used Civics, FRV's and (I think) CRV's.

So based on that, the document you linked to and the fact that local garages were pre-registering Euro 4 diesels by the bucket load late in 2010 I feel 100% confident that whilst vans had a dispensation cars did not.

In my opinion none should have had a dispensation, polution kills so why make a law and then allow manufacturers to ignore it.

I have carried out another google and found the following document.

www.dft.gov.uk/vca/legislation/end-of-series-derog...p

Its a process for manufacturers to apply for approval to carry on selling vehicles made to the previous standard after the introduction of the new standard.

But in simple terms it would have been of no use to Honda if they wished to continue selling Euro 4 Civic diesels after January 2011 on couple of counts.

1 "This is so that manufacturers facing economic or technical difficulties in complying with the incoming standards have extra time to sell off any stocks made to the previous standards."

Don't think Honda would qualify for either reason.

2 "Vehicles manufactured three months before the legislation comes into force"

Would Honda have made sufficient Civics before the end of September 2010 to place them into stock and continue selling late them into 2011 or even into 2012 - up to the introduction of the new model. I thought they minimised new vehicle stock these days - surely the days of cars standing up to their axles in water for months or even years have long gone.

Totally disgusting, if true.

Its surely a slurr on Honda's supossed excellent company reputation and makes the whole approval process a joke.

But why would our local Honda dealer tell me back in 2010 there were no new ones available.

Bet not may owners know their shiny new 2011 Civic was built in 2009.

I know for a fact Kia did not do this with the Ceed and Ford did not do it with the Focus/Mondeo so why should Honda have been allowed to do it. Euro 5 compliant Ceeds, Focus and Mondeo's started being produced July/August 2010 and the Euro 4 ones were being actively marketed into December. The dealer we bought or Ceed from in September 2010 had one Euro 4 CRDi on stock which was pre-registered late December, we consdiered it back in August but the colour was on our hate list.

Were they waiting until the technology had been perfected and wanted to learn from others mistakes?

Honda as a company have a history of technological inovation. They have never sat back and waited before so why on earth would they in this instance.

Certainly from the clever positioning of the DPF in our CRV

Other makes have positioned the DPF in a location that allows it to reach the high temepratures easily, the Kia Ceed is one example, my BMW 1 series was another. At the other extreme is the PSA 1.6 TDCi which needs the Eolys tank to enable regens because the DPF is virtually under the floor, possibly 3 feet from the turbo. Blame the fact that the engine was designed with the exhaust at the front for that, no space for the DPF next to the turbo.

The Civic's 1.8 normally aspirated engine was reliable but it was a bit lacking in midrange pull compared to VAG's excellent 1.4 turbo and couldn't come close on emissions or economy.

We had one on fleet in about 2006, it was when the new range was introduced. The user/chooser decided on that model because the emissions were very low for a petrol (at the time) resulting in lower BIK than many diesels, how things change. I only took it out once after it became a pool car. It was very disapointing, at first I thought it was a 1400 but at least it had sensible wheels/tyres and a relatively decent ride.