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| Discussion > 'Give Way' at motorway slip roads | |
| Thread Author: LHM | Replies: 90 |
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Thu 20 Mar 03 15:44
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - LHM
  
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Hi, After a couple of 'incidents' this morning, I was left wondering where the responsibility lies for the safe merging of traffic joining a busy motorway. 'Officially', there is a 'give way' marking at the end of the slip road - so it might be argued that it is the sole responsibility for the joining driver to match his/her speed to that of the road being joined. I always do my best to accommodate joining traffic when I'm in lane 1, but sometimes it's very difficult when the road is busy. How, then, do you cope with a joining vehicle (usually bigger!)which just forces its way onto the motorway? Can the driver in lane 1 ever be deemed at fault for a 'coming together' in this way? |
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Thu 20 Mar 03 16:00
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - jd
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LHM, Technically, the drivers on the motorway have priority and this means they may or may not be able to move over (to lane 2) to accomodate joining traffic. It is up to the vehicle joining to adjust his speed and timing so that he shouldn't need to stop or cause any vehicle on the motorway to take avoiding action. To cope with a vehicle 'pushing' onto the motorway I would suggest earlier observation before the sliproad joins and a keen anticipation of what 'might' happen. Also, it is crucial to be aware of where your escape route is whenever you are driving past a joing sliproad, for exactly the event you have described. So really, the only way to cope is for first-class observation and awareness. Bit of a boring reply I suppose.......... JD |
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Thu 20 Mar 03 16:11
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - No Do$h
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A policy I adopt is to start monitoring the middle and outer lanes for gaps as I pass the off slip. If it appears a vehicle joining the Mway may come too close, I can then move across. If it is really busy, I tend to move into the middle lane at the earliest safe opportunity after the off-slip (as to all intents and purposes I am "overtaking" traffic joining the Mway), returning to the left lane once safe to do so. From an insurance and police point of view, I doubt you would have much luck with the argument that the joining motorist was responsible. Chances are that you have full sight of them but they only have limited sight of you, putting the onus for avoiding action on you. Always safest to assume that no other motorist can see you and drive accordingly. It's no comfort to lie in a hospital bed, dealing with letters from the insurers that have written off your pride and joy, knowing you were "in the right". |
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Thu 20 Mar 03 16:39
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - Wally Zebon
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I can't believe the answers I'm seeing here. As mentioned, it is a GIVE WAY. If the joining vehicle cannot safely join the motorway, it should wait until it can, even if that means coming to a stop. A question relating to this is frequently seen on the online theory tests found on the internet. A slip road is basically an angled T junction (although with no right turn). I do appreciate that it's not much fun knowing you were in the right whilst lying in a hospital bed, but at the same time, you were "in the right"! |
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Thu 20 Mar 03 16:46
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - No Do$h
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Whilst I agree with you wholeheartedly Wally, the problem is that most accidents involve someone in the wrong and someone in the right. If the person "in the right" sees the other and fails to take appropriate action, they too are in the wrong. Blimey, if we all drove on the basis that we were in the right so didn't need to take avoiding action, the roads would be jammed with smashed cars. Taking your comments one step further, what would you do if a motorist pulled out of a side road into your path? Would you take avoiding action or would you smack into them without any attempt to avoid it? Bringing the analogy closer to the slip-road scenario, you see a motorist about to exit a side road and you don't think they've seen you. What do you do then? Anyway, I thought you had an Audi, the thinking :o) |
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Thu 20 Mar 03 16:47
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - No Do$h
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Ooops..... >> >> Anyway, I thought you had an Audi, the thinking man's BMW..... >> >> :o) >> >> >> >> |
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Thu 20 Mar 03 16:56
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - Blue {P}
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I nearly had a similar incindet, except I was the one who was "in the wrong". I was joining a virtually empty dual carriageway (National Speed Limit) from the slip road, and I was up to about 50 mph when a car in the inside lane didn't move over but flew up towards me at 70+. They didn't move over despite the fact that I was indicating well in advance of joining and there was *nobody* else on the road. I know they had no requirement to move over legally, but when they had every opportunity and it wouldn't have caused a problem for them, I thought it was a bit bad coming up so quickly in the left hand lane, as it was I saw them just in time to swerve back into the slip road and onto the rumble strip, then thank god they budged over a little and I could mange to get in onto the road. I know that technically it was my fault, I was at a giveway, but when the road was empty, you don't expect someone to deliberately try and force you off the road by refusing to move into a totally empty lane. and like I've said, he must have been moving quickly 'cos he caught me up very rapidly. Blue |
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Thu 20 Mar 03 17:13
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - No Do$h
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Blue, a classic example of what I was describing. There's a section of dual carriageway near here which runs through the edges of the New Forest and through farm and forestry land for about 6 miles before there is a junction (Blackwater on the Bournemouth Spur Road for those that know it). The junction is just over a rise and you only get about 10 seconds warning at 70. The onslip is VERY short, preceded by a very tight 180 degree run-in and visibility is hindered by gorse growing on the edges of the slip. Without fail there is an accident on this stretch every rush hour, caused by motorists failing to move out into the outside lane or by someone on the slip accelerating into the back of a stationary vehicle at the end of the slip. Despite this, nobody seems to modify their behaviour and you will see the same stoney-faced individuals hammering along the inside lane at 80mph with "They have to give way, not me" written all over them. Trouble is, when "they" do give way, they get shunted into the traffic by the bloke behind who thinks they shouldn't have stopped..... |
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Thu 20 Mar 03 19:42
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - Godfrey H {P}
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| All this advance observation stuff is all very well but how do you cope with the nutter in a BMW joining the motorway at ( I kid you not) 125 mph? |
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Thu 20 Mar 03 20:21
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - No Do$h
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Not a nice one Godfrey. As previoulsy mentioned, you should always be aware of an escape route. Assuming I have already moved out to the middle lane, my personal reaction would be to (a) slow and drop back into the inner lane, giving said nutter a route out to "his" lane on the right, (b) stay in same lane if inner lane not clear and again, drop back as rapidly as is safe to do or (c) move into the outside lane for the same reason (i.e. giving the Beemer a safe corridor). I know it's frustrating, but it's their funeral, not yours. The decision on which way to go is going to be based on your continued observation of the available space in each lane. I can't stress enough that motorway on-slips are amongst the most dangerous places on UK roads, hence most accidents being at or immediately past them. I have to hold my hand up to feelings of sheer rage and frustration when I see people drive like this and I have been known to do the indefensible and "block" those determined to mimic a low-flying tomahawk, but since my daughter was born 3and a half years ago, I grew up in one heck of a hurry. I want to see her grow up and that is always in the back of my mind if the red mist descends when I'm on the road. I'm not an IAM driver, just have many 100s of 1000s if accident free miles (and a fair few track days) under my belt so folks, feel free to correct me on this one. |
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Thu 20 Mar 03 20:29
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - Dave_TD {P}
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>> I can't stress enough that motorway on-slips are amongst the most dangerous places on UK roads, hence most accidents being at or immediately past them. ???? Where are the figures to prove that? As far as I was aware, mile-for-mile motorways are several times safer places to drive than any other type of road. It's just that because of the higher speeds involved, and the less stimulating environment, minor errors tend to develop much more quickly into major situations and any impacts tend to be a lot harder. What really worries me is that we have all of these motorists who scrape through a driving test, rarely drive anywhere other than to and from work or the shops, but think they are "good" drivers, being let loose on fast-flowing, busy motorways at all... |
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Thu 20 Mar 03 20:51
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - Obsolete
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DTD: I don't know for sure - no figures - but my prejudice is that problem drivers on motorways are the 'expert' drivers who have excellent car control honed over many years, but take unnecessary risks and lack patience. I guess a newby coming across one of these could easily contribute to a crash due to being intimidated and lacking experience. (I speak from past experience.) Just occurred to me that it has become popular in job interviews to do those vile psychometric personality tests. I wonder if these are any good at predicting driving style and hence degree of insurance risk? |
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Thu 20 Mar 03 20:56
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - Dave_TD {P}
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>> Just occurred to me that it has become popular in job >> interviews to do those vile psychometric personality tests. I wonder if >> these are any good at predicting driving style and hence degree >> of insurance risk? Good question! Seeing as everyone has their own idea of what makes a "good" driver, I would imagine it would be quite hard to interpret those test results impartially though. Hmmm. You've got me thinking now! This motorway thread and the other current one have both really got me on my high horse today, must be something to do with being off ill! |
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Thu 20 Mar 03 22:25
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - Dave_TD {P}
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Leif - Try this: www.roadragetest.co.uk/ It was the closest I could find! |
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Thu 20 Mar 03 22:32
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - HF
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Hmm, I don't think I like my results on that, DTD! HF |
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Thu 20 Mar 03 22:36
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - Dave_TD {P}
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Actually HF, I reckon that deserves a thread all of its own! So i'll start one here: www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?f=2&t=11562 |
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Thu 20 Mar 03 20:57
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - No Do$h
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Hi DTD. I agree that mile for mile our motorways are very safe indeed when compared to pretty much any other class of road. My comment is based on personal observation and conversations with traffic officers who cover some of the South's motorways. They pointed out pretty much what you just put, which is that the higher speeds involved tend to exacerbate minor errors. The problem specifically with onslips is the alarming disparity in traffic speeds. A classic is the M3 southbound /M27 Westbound interchange, where commuter traffic from London/Reading/Basingstoke has hammered down the congested M3 at 90+ and comes screaming along into local traffic doing 55 in the inside lane. What inevitably happens is that the M3 traffic heads straight out onto the outside lane, still doing 90+, whipping across 3 lanes of slower moving traffic, with disasterous consequences on most days. On the other side of the coin you have onslips like the one at Winchester north, where urban traffic joins the same London commuter traffic, only this time you have artics doing 56, cars doing 80 and cars doing 90+ in the respective lanes, with a steady stream of local traffic desperately trying to merge, not always with too much success. Onslips only make up a minute proportion of our motorways but account for by far the largest number of motorway accidents, hence my comment. |
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Thu 20 Mar 03 21:04
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - Obsolete
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| ND: The slip road at - I think - Winchester South on the M3 is a nightmare. Here a 2 lane motorway becomes 3 lanes. High speed cars scream down the slip road all bunched up and then fight to get into lane 3. I'd forgotten how manic these "I've got to get to 100 mph in lane 3" people can get. |
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Thu 20 Mar 03 21:14
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - No Do$h
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All in all a pretty nasty piece of motorway, isn't it! |
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Thu 20 Mar 03 21:42
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - Obsolete
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| Yup. They could improve the design by making the transition from 2 to 3 lanes a decent way before the slip road. Course it might not be as easy as that! |
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Thu 20 Mar 03 21:56
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - No Do$h
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Leif, do you remember how it was before they built that section up to two lanes? The Hockley traffic lights and Spitfire bridge? Believe me, what we have today is an improvement. I think they went as far as they could with the junctions/lanes taking into account the environmental impact on the south downs and a nearby SSI. It was all pre-swampy, but it still got a lot of punishment in the press. It's still a pig of a junction, mind. |
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Thu 20 Mar 03 22:43
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - Obsolete
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| I only took and passed my test 5 years ago despite age so I don't remember. Did I really suggest they should have removed even more of a SSI? I have been there recording rare fungi on numerous occasions. |
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Fri 21 Mar 03 00:07
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - Tim
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County and Highways have been reviewing this junction's layout for sometime to try and alleviate some of the tailbacks into the city and trailing back on the A34 southbound. One consideration IIRC was to try and figure out a way of letting the A34 flow directly onto the M3. Two junctions that people join motorways particularly slowly are those on the M3 either side of what's left of Twyford Down. People seem to think they have a preordained right to join the motorway at 35mph no matter what the conditions! |
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Thu 20 Mar 03 21:28
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - clariman
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I seem to recall that there is a motorway sliproad that joins the motorway in the outside lane. I think it may be the M5 somewhere. Anyone got any more details, possibly a link to a photo or something? clariman |
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Fri 21 Mar 03 07:40
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - SteveH42
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>> I seem to recall that there is a motorway sliproad that >> joins the motorway in the outside lane. M60, Bredbury junction. Something like Jct24 - it'll be obvious from Multimap but I haven't the time to check at the moment. You join as an extra lane and the inside lane ends a few hundred yards afterwards. It's not usually a problem until you get the idiots who potter down the (much longer than usual) sliproad at 35, or the drivers already on the motorway who'd rather undertake you than give you chance to pull in and let them past. |
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Fri 21 Mar 03 03:04
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - Godfrey H {P}
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The problem was I was already in the inner lane with no escape route due to traffic already overtaking me. Adding to the problem I had no time to plan for his antics as due to the nature of the slip road giving a limited view of joining traffic. Now the design of the slip road was perfectly safe for traffic joing at 70 mph but this guy was doing 125 mph and he was going to join the motorway at that speed no matter what (absolutely typical of some BMW drivers - dons nomex suit and ducks for cover ). All I could do was brake hard and pray that the guy behind me was awake |
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Thu 20 Mar 03 16:48
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - Steve S
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"I do appreciate that it's not much fun knowing you were in the right whilst lying in a hospital bed," Or on your tombstone. I didn't see anyone argue that it was Give Way. I did see some sensible advice about approaching a slip road. |
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Thu 20 Mar 03 17:37
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - Nsar
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| Wally, you don't stop at the "end" of the slip road!If, once you've accelerated you find you can't join the m/way at the appropriate speed, don't brake, you continue along the hard shoulder until it's safe to do so. Trying to get up to m/way speeds from a standing start into heavy traffic is going to cause no end of probs. It's exactly the same for re-joining the m/way from the hard shoulder. The number of clowns I see lurching into lane one at 5mph is amazing, probably something to do with being told so often that driving on the hard shoulder is wrong under any circs. |
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Thu 20 Mar 03 17:47
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - Obsolete
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The number of clowns I see lurching into lane one at 5mph is amazing, Nuff said! |
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Thu 20 Mar 03 22:05
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - slefLX
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After reading this thread I now realise just how friendly the M57 is. It may be because it's such a short motorway but I'm regularly whizzing up and down this particular motorway and haven't witnessed any of this maniacal lunatic driving (maybe I should add 'so far'). Everything seems to just flow as it should with traffic moving to allow others onto the main carriageway off slip roads. Even during the recent major roadworks co-operation seemed to be the order of the day and when drivers were unable to move across the lanes they were holding back enough and flashing their lights (I know it's wrong) to show others they were giving way for them. I haven't got very much experience of other maotorways but I find this one quite pleasant to travel along. |
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Thu 20 Mar 03 17:08
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - jud
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When joining a motorway you should (on the slip road)accelerate up to the speed of the traffic you intend to merge with. Adjust your speed to merge as required, i.e. brake or accelerate. And if still unable to safely join, either stop or run onto the hard shoulder. This is as i see it, unfortunately some drivers think otherwise. |
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Thu 20 Mar 03 17:45
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - Obsolete
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I guess if a car on the slip road were to side swipe a car on the motorway, the outcome insurance wise would depend on the testimony of the two drivers, and any witness accounts if needed. A driver lying to the insurance company or doing a runner is not uncommon. What I *really* hate is arrogant so and so's who shoot down the slip road behind me, and then position themselves between me and the motorway, forcing me onto the hard shoulder (assuming there is one). |
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Thu 20 Mar 03 19:38
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - JamesH
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There are many people in their own world on the motorway, refusing to acknowledge anyone else. There's usually a thread on the go criticising those in lane 2 not moving into an empty lane 1. Here it's the other way around! |
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Thu 20 Mar 03 19:42
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - Honestjohn
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Well Wally Zebon certainly lived up to his name. There the guys were having a balanced discussion about safe, considerate driving and and Wally has to stum up some sheer b***** minded stupidity. HJ |
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Thu 20 Mar 03 20:22
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - No Do$h
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To be fair to him HJ, he doesn't normally come across like that in his posts. |
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Thu 20 Mar 03 20:29
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - Flat in Fifth
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>> To be fair to him HJ, he doesn't normally come across >> like that in his posts. >> >> Quite... someone had a bad hair day? And of course if the motorway is jammed or <5mph, eg M6/M5 junction and vicinity then sometimes traffic does have to come to a stop. |
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Thu 20 Mar 03 21:32
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - Fullchat
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Sorry I've got to go with Wally on this one. A driver must not perform any manouvre that would cause another road user to alter course or speed. It is NOT up to the Motorway user to Give Way to the vehicle entering from the slip road. The vehicle entering the Motorway must must match its speed to that of the traffic and filter into the traffic. If there is not a gap then they must stop. It has become historical and a matter of courtesy ( something we seem to see little of these days!) that switched on drivers on the Motorway will observe the vehicle on the slip road and traffic conditions permitting move into lane 2 to facilitate a safe entry onto the Motorway. Should the vehicle on the Motorway be unable to move into lane 2 due to traffic volume then a slight reduction in speed through acceleration sense may also facilitate the other vehicle entering the Motorway. Motorway users do not have to Give Way to vehicles entering on the slip road. |
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Thu 20 Mar 03 21:33
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - Fullchat
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| Nor would I condone driving on the hard shoulder. |
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Thu 20 Mar 03 21:53
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - No Do$h
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Full Chat, I agree with you on what driver's should and shouldn't do. Unfortunately the reality is that we all face motorists that ignore the rules and will either "force" their way on or are simply unaware of their surroundings. It's not right, but it is the reality of motoring in the UK today. In these all too common circumstances, as described at the beginning of the post, it is incumbent on other road users to avoid an accident, NOT act as self-appointed law enforcers. By putting the blinkers on with a "they shouldn't be there so I shall drive as if they are not" attitude, they are increasing risk. As I've already mentioned, it ain't nice to be "beaten" by some no-good breaking the law like that, but it keeps you out of hospital if you take appropriate, well thought out avoiding action. We aren't in the jungle any more and the individual who carves you up isn't going to beat you to the hunt and steal your meal (although that in essence is the thought process of life's more aggressive drivers). If it helps, call them every rude name under the sun in your head, but for goodness sake don't assume that trying to impose the rules of the road on another in this physical context will make you "right" and them "wrong". As previously posted, the Police would be more than happy to prosecute you if you were involved in an accident and had "right of way" and an acceptable escape route and chose to stick rigidly to the former. |
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Thu 20 Mar 03 22:30
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - Fullchat
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No Dosh Totally agree with what you are saying. "Drive to Survive". Anticipation. reaction and avoidance are the hallmarks of a careful and competent driver. Pig arrogance and selfish bullying are not. A good driver entering the motorway would be planning the manouvre and adjusting speed to find that slot. They should not commit until they had some movement indication or reaction from the vehicle/s on the motorway. Blandly forcing their way on in my mind is reckless. I am not so sure about your ascertion that a driver could be prosecuted for not pulling over when they do not have to and its not a legal requirement to do so. If I can use an example of a car pulling out of a Give Way junction when the car on the main road could have stopped/slowed down. They dont have to but it is in their interest to. 'Driving without consideration for other road users' - may be, but its the lesser of all the driving offences. DVD come on I would welcome your thoughts it lonely out here! |
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Fri 21 Mar 03 09:18
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - No Do$h
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>> I am not so sure about your ascertion that a driver >> could be prosecuted for not pulling over when they do not >> have to and its not a legal requirement to do so. >> If I can use an example of a car pulling out >> of a Give Way junction when the car on the main >> road could have stopped/slowed down. They dont have to but it >> is in their interest to. 'Driving without consideration for other road >> users' - may be, but its the lesser of all the >> driving offences. >> DVD come on I would welcome your thoughts it lonely out >> here! >> You're right that it would probably be a lesser offence, but it still hurts.... |
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Thu 20 Mar 03 21:38
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - Bromptonaut
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leif wrote >> What I *really* hate is arrogant so and so's who shoot >> down the slip road behind me, and then position themselves between >> me and the motorway, forcing me onto the hard shoulder (assuming >> there is one). This happens to me fairly often joining the dualled A5 at Milton Keynes (Portway). I normally avoid blocking 'cos it just makes them worse, but if the risk is being forced off a road with no hard shoulder I'm happy to straddle the centre line of the slip. |
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Thu 20 Mar 03 22:11
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - No Do$h
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Just a thought on the term "right of way". In another post it (and not in this context) it was pointed out that with rights come responsibilities. Sums it up rather nicely. |
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Thu 20 Mar 03 23:21
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - wemyss
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The emphasis in this discussion concentrates on motorways but there are the same slip roads on most major roads and they don’t have the same facilities for gaining access in many cases. Adjust your speed to the same as the motorway traffic and filter in sounds fine in theory and if you can’t get in either stop or carry on down the hard shoulder!!!!. Take the A50 which in one case is an uphill entrance. You would need a very powerful car to reach compatible speed and then you have the problem where there is no hard shoulder if no-one lets you in. I believe the responsibility rests with both the main road driver to assist traffic entering the main road and the vehicles entering same to make it easy. After all we are one and the same as we all have to do it. If we all adopted the selfish route of I’m on the main road and I have right of way traffic would be backing up on the slip road. With the density of traffic nowadays we must all give way irrespective of who has the right of way whether it be a slip road on to a motorway or at a junction in a normal busy town. |
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Thu 20 Mar 03 23:28
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - Kevin
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HJ, give Wally a break... He is absolutely correct. Highway Code Para 158 (in my version) is explicit: "When you join the motorway you will normally approach it from a road on the left (a slip-road). You MUST give way to traffic already on the motorway." Although it may be good manners for a driver in lane one to move over or adjust his speed to allow another vehicle to merge from the sliproad... there is no obligation for him to do so. Kevin... PS. Can anyone tell me where to obtain a copy of the 'Basingstoke Ammendment to the Highway Code' |
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Fri 21 Mar 03 08:50
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - Nsar
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This is the section in full from the code. "Joining the motorway When you join the motorway you will normally approach it from a road on the left (a slip road) or from an adjoining motorway. You should give priority to traffic already on the motorway check the traffic on the motorway and adjust your speed to fit safely into the traffic flow in the left-hand lane not cross solid white lines that separate lanes Stay on the slip road if it continues as an extra lane on the motorway Remain in the left-hand lane long enough to adjust to the speed of traffic before considering overtaking." The obvious point to make is that it doesn't advise on what to do about joining solid traffic. My view is that you shouldn't rely in that 1 to 2 second window as you get to the end of the slip road on anyone letting you out either by letting a gap open or by moving out, but stopping dead at the end of the slip and then trying to accelerate like mad creates two separate risks of being rear-ended on the slip and possibly being shunted into lane 1 meanwhile flooring it into moving traffic will probably cause someone to brake sharply and/or move into lane 2 sharply. The law allows you to use the hard shoulder to gain speed relative to lane one before re-enterig lane one. Doing this gives everyone more time to adjust, your predicament is more visible to everyone without being threatening to anyone and carries no additional risk. |
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Fri 21 Mar 03 09:33
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - Wally Zebon
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I think it might be time to defend myself. The question was... After a couple of 'incidents' this morning, I was left wondering where the responsibility lies for the safe merging of traffic joining a busy motorway As mentioned elsewhere within this thread, the highway code states that a driver joining a motorway may have to come to a halt. I also think that if someone came down a slip road and found they couldn't join and then proceeded up the hard shoulder, PC Plod would be after him/her in a flash. The hard shoulder is for emergencies only, and I hardly think joining heavy traffic is deemed to be an emergency. I'm not saying that I don't give way to joining traffic, its just that I know I don't HAVE to. It is courteous and nine times out of ten very easy to move over and let someone join. What annoys me is when someone throws a tantrum and goes loopy because you wern't able to move over for them. How dare you stop them from joining the motorway! On a lighter note - What model BMW was it that was doing 125mph at the end of a slip road, and how long was said slip road. I drive a rather fast Audi (0 to 60 in under 6 secs), but it still takes a rather long piece of road to hit that sort of speed. |
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Fri 21 Mar 03 09:53
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - jud
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Wally, completely agree with you, i had the same happen to me twice, both time women drivers. |
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Fri 21 Mar 03 10:52
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - Oz
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Pleased to see all the references in this thread confirming that the obligation is on the joining driver to wait until safe to join, and that the right of way belongs to the traffic already on the motorway. I was beginning to think I had missed something. Oz (as was) |
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Fri 21 Mar 03 12:33
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - Godfrey H {P}
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| Can't tell you what model BMW it was as I was scared witless taking avoiding action. All I can say it was one of the big powerful ones. |
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Fri 21 Mar 03 13:47
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - SteveH42
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For some reason I can't find them on the Highway Code website, but don't the signs on the approach to a sliproad mean something like 'roads merge with equal priority?' On other words the ones that look like: / /| | | (Sorry for dodgy ASCII art) However, this seems to contradict the quoted passages from the highway code... IMO, it'd be more sensible to insist that both traffic flows make room for the other were possible without going out of their way. It annoys me when people sit outside you in the second lane only crawling past when they can see someone wanting to join and that you'd like to pull out to give them room. |
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Fri 21 Mar 03 13:52
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - Dave_TD {P}
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>> It annoys me when people sit outside you in >> the second lane only crawling past when they can see someone >> wanting to join and that you'd like to pull out to >> give them room. But they can't see this situation!!! That's the problem! That's three things for their tiny minds to deal with all at the same time! Some of these people have white knuckles from gripping the steering wheel so tightly because the very notion of motorway driving terrifies them. |
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Fri 21 Mar 03 16:26
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - SteveH42
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The ASCII art hasn't come out at all for some reason - been stripped seemingly on posting. Anyway, these signs are a vertical line with an angled line joining it from the left on the motorway itself, and a vertical line which joins a (longer) angled line on the slip road - I'm sure you know what I mean! |
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Fri 21 Mar 03 11:29
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - LHM
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Thanks, everyone, for your comments - it appears that I'm not alone in my quandary over the rights and wrongs on this point!! As with many other aspects of 'practical' driving, it's sometimes hard to reconcile the advice given in the Highway Code with the realities of UK roads - including the psyches of the drivers which use them. As I mentioned, I do try to ease the task of joining traffic by slight throttle adjustment, but it becomes a bit 'hairy' when there's a steady stream of nose-to-tail joining traffic, a 38-tonner radiator badge filling your rear-view mirror - and no way over to lane 2........ :-( Other posters have mentioned a driver's 'right of way' - an emotive subject in its own right - but it's a sad fact that many drivers have died with the satisfaction of knowing that they had right of way. I'll continue to do my best at motorway junctions, but will still wonder about the legal implications should a collision occur. On the subject of the Highway Code, the only advice which really sticks in my mind concerns the use of unmanned level crossings - I think it ends with the comment, "always 'give way' to trains." Sound advice, if ever there was!! Thanks again for all your 'food for thought'. |
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Fri 21 Mar 03 12:12
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - Jon
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The people that annoy me on Motorway slip roads are those that join and then immediately move into lane 2 or 3 regardless of their speed or the speed of the other traffic. It's as if these people (usually driving large German exec cars) feel too important to use the inside lane for any longer than necessary. Jon |
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Fri 21 Mar 03 12:35
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - Godfrey H {P}
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| Ah well they need to get into their special reserved lane immediately. |
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Fri 21 Mar 03 12:40
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - No Do$h
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Wondered how long it would take before the "left lane, middle lane, beemer lane" thing came along. Audi. The thinking man's BMW Mercedes. The old man's BMW Alfa Romeo. The foolish man's BMW Well, they say a fool and his money are soon parted. Wonder where I got the inspiration for my Back-Room name? |
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Fri 21 Mar 03 12:44
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - jud
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| A'm thinking about what to say about this. |
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Fri 21 Mar 03 12:59
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - Alfafan {P}
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How about: BMW: the Boy Racers' BMW |
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Fri 21 Mar 03 13:01
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - No Do$h
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I should add that these are common perceptions, not my personal views. Especially as I'm one of the foolish ones..... Allegedly |
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Fri 21 Mar 03 16:02
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - eMBe {P}
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| Godfrey H - I fully accept your right to have the views I describe as "politics of envy". There is one question I have for you: How did you measure the BMW to be doing 125mph? |
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Fri 21 Mar 03 18:56
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - Godfrey H {P}
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| Very effective these Nomex suits! |
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Fri 21 Mar 03 19:23
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - dave18
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| I don't see the harm in traffic moving from lane one to lane two. If that traffic cannot or will not do so, this should be obvious to the person using the slip road, in which case surely the accelerator is a marvellous invention. My grandad idles onto the motorway at 50 and it can be terrifying. |
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Fri 21 Mar 03 22:53
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - kith
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| I am totally amazed that some people consider moving over to the middle lane as an option to give way to vehicles joining the motorway. As stated here it is the responsibility of the vehicle on the slip road to adjust their speed and position, NOT the vehicles on the motorway. Many a time I have been about to overtake cars approaching an adjoining slip road when they pull out to give way to joining traffic causing me to have to slow down, due to not being able to pull into the third lane, or causing me to have to change lanes if clear. The best policy when traffic is coming down a slip road to join, when you are in the first lane is to keep a constant speed so that they can adjust theirs. Don't try to speed up to get past before them, they may be speeding up to adjust their speed to yours. Also don't slow down to let them in, as they may be slowing down to adjust their speed, just keep a constant speed. |
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Fri 21 Mar 03 23:06
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - Wales Forester
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Try staying in lane one and keeping at the same speed and see how long it is before you're involved in an accident! It'll not be long before you come a cropper. If there is nothing in lane two you should move into it, if you're having to 'avoid' people then you're not planning ahead enough. If I'm joining and the person in lane one doesn't move over when they are able to do so safely then they're due some abuse I'm afraid. That's just downright disregard and selfishness. |
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Fri 21 Mar 03 23:32
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - Obsolete
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Cars on the slip road must give way to cars on the motorway. That said, it is courteous and sensible for cars in lane 1 to assist those wishing to join, by ensuring a gap before or after, or moving to lane 2 if it does not cause undue stress to cars already in lane 2. Blimey this really is stating the bleeding obvious isn't it. As stated by numerous people in this thread before me. No cars in lane 2 that don't move over when they can are not due some abuse. They might be discourteous and selfish but that does not merit abuse. And what might abuse be? After all they might not have noticed that a slip road is coming up. Maybe Just A Minute is on the radio and Paul Merton is getting up a good head of steam. Very distracting. Hardly safe driving to be unaware but it happens to us all at some time and not worthy of abuse. (It does not happen often to me but I have oonce or twice been caught unawares.) |
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Sat 22 Mar 03 01:42
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - lezer
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>If I'm joining and the person in lane one doesn't move over when they are able to do so safely then they're due some abuse Im afraid. How do you know it is safe for driver in lane one to move over? It is not always posible for you to look back down two lanes of traffic and look where you are going all at the same time!! If you hurl abuse at people then you won't have to mind getting it back, or is this the start of road rage?? |
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Sat 22 Mar 03 05:16
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - Dave_TD {P}
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Let's just think for a moment about the basic rules you apply when taking these theory tests: That you cannot force, request or invite any other road user to do anything. You can merely warn them of your presence. It should be down to each individual road user to observe what is happening and to behave accordingly. And just because someone else doesn't behave in the way you think they should behave, doesn't make it OK to give them any sort of "abuse" at all. How do we manage to reach 66 posts on a subject that I[1], for one, have never had a problem with? [1] I, who drive in excess of 40,000 motorway miles a year, the length and breadth of the UK, not always on familiar stretches of road. |
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Sat 22 Mar 03 12:07
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - Wales Forester
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If you're seriously saying you have NEVER had a problem with someone not allowing you to join from a slipraod when they are able to, even though you've done your level best to match the carriageway speed, then I'm afraid DTD that either a) all of your 40,000 miles have been at night or b) you're a liar! Maybe the case is that you yourself have actually caused other vehicles problems by joining and you're just not aware? Sorry to tar all taxi drivers with the same brush. |
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Sat 22 Mar 03 15:34
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - Dave_TD {P}
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>> If you're seriously saying you have NEVER had a problem with >> someone not allowing you to join from a slipraod when they >> are able to, even though you've done your level best to >> match the carriageway speed, then I'm afraid DTD that either >> a) all of your 40,000 miles have been at night or >> >> b) you're a liar! >> >> Maybe the case is that you yourself have actually caused other >> vehicles problems by joining and you're just not aware? I'm not saying that I've never been obstructed by another motorist when they didn't have to, I'm saying that I've never had that situation escalate into a problem. As soon as you can see the traffic on the motorway you have the choice of half a dozen different places to slot into the traffic seamlessly. I fail to see how any motorist can find themself in a situation where they need to stop hard at the end of a sliproad when the traffic is flowing quickly, unless they lack either rudimentary skill or basic confidence in their abilities. |
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Sun 23 Mar 03 01:45
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - Wales Forester
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>> I'm not saying that I've never been obstructed by another motorist >> when they didn't have to, I'm saying that I've never had >> that situation escalate into a problem. As soon as you can >> see the traffic on the motorway you have the choice of >> half a dozen different places to slot into the traffic seamlessly. >> I fail to see how any motorist can find themself in >> a situation where they need to stop hard at the end >> of a sliproad when the traffic is flowing quickly, unless they >> lack either rudimentary skill or basic confidence in their abilities. >> I think we've all got a different view of what we perceive to be a problem and what we perceive to be bad/inconsiderate driving. I agree wholeheartedly with your logic DTD, but in reality situations do arise where the joining drivers put themselves in the perfect position only to be snookered by some numpty in lane one who is too busy trying to balance his cup of coffee without dropping his mobile phone, whilst picking a CD from the glovebox! ;-) |
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Sat 22 Mar 03 11:59
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - Wales Forester
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>> How do you know it is safe for driver in lane one to move over? This is simple, by watching what is going on on the motorway whilst travelling along the sliproad, then by using my mirrors and my ability to turn my head to the right. There are few occasions where it is not possible to see whether the vehicle/s in lane one are able to move over safely. There are too many people discussing this with the view that they don't HAVE to move over by law therefore they'll be pig headed and not do so. I'm afraid that it is these people who will inevitably contribute to an accident with their selfishness and disregard for others on the road. As for the abuse, maybe I should have chosen a better word, but these drivers deserve everything they get. Driving, especially on the motorway, is all about planning ahead, if you don't plan ahead and watch what's going on around you then sooner or later you're going to end up being moved into lane two forcibly or at the very least you'll find yourself taking evasive action in a situation that has benn all of your own making. Wake up and smell the reality folks. |
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Sat 22 Mar 03 15:05
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - Obsolete
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There are too many people discussing this with the view that they don't HAVE to move over by law therefore they'll be pig headed and not do so. PP: I don't read the above from preceding postings. Most people seem to be saying pretty much the same thing. It is very rare that I am blocked from entering the motorway. I usually position myself well in advance to fit in to traffic (assuming a view of the motorway). My main problem, which I had again today, is the huddle of cars moving from slip road to lane 3 as fast as they can, regardless of the risks they take. It is usually possible to position oneself to keep a good distance from the 'scrum'. Oops, rugbys started again ... |
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Sat 22 Mar 03 11:53
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - SteveH42
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>> I am totally amazed that some people consider moving over to >> the middle lane as an option to give way to vehicles >> joining the motorway. It's this sort of attitude that makes driving so unpleasant these days. Why shouldn't you have a bit of consideration for fellow road users now and again? Of course you shouldn't pull out if it's going to cause an incident but if the middle lane is clear and / or the vehicles joining are going a fair bit slower than yours then why not? That said, after spending 10 minutes waiting to cross over a major road yesterday but being constantly blocked in by cars stuck in a traffic jam on said road, it appears courtesy amongst drivers is now at an all-time low. How's about thinking now and again and making life easier for others - I'm sure you'd appreciate them doing it for you. |
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Sat 22 Mar 03 12:34
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - Wales Forester
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| Wise words Steve. |
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Sat 22 Mar 03 15:21
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - Dwight Van Driver
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Badger settled back and let his favourite armchair envelope him. Taking a sip from his glass of wine he let out a long drawn aaarhhh of appreciation. "This Tesco's own label at 13% proof and under three quid a bottle is a bargain and as good as some that you would pay a fiver for. Now Mole, what's your problem today?" he asked benevolently. "Motorways, Badge, joining them, seems a problem out there" pipped Mole from under his chair for he had sipped deep of the same vin rouge. Badger dropped his head, looked over his glasses at Mole and began, " Motorways have a main carriageway which is accessable by a slip road which is also part of the Motorway but is secondary carriageway to the main carriageway itself. The junction of the slip road with the main carriageway is white lined marked with a sign No 1003 under the Traffic Signs and General Directions, of which I have spoken before. " "Why are signs important Badge?" asked Mole lifting his glass to his mouth, missing and pouring wine down his front and all over his tie.. "Signs,Mole, are the language of the road and should be understood. This white lines indicates that you should not pass over it if it would cause another on the main carriageway to reduce speed or swerve." replied Badger looking worried at Mole but adding more to his glass. "Sluppose the main carriageway is chocker then does he schtop or can he whizz up the hard sholder, hic" queried Mole sucking his tie after another miss with his glass. Somewhat annoyed Badger retorted, " That friendly Plod Mid Life Crises has published his thesis on how to join the main stream carriageway backed by the advice in the Highway Code and he is right. Whilst under The Motorways Traffic (England and Wales) Regulations 1982 you commit an offence if you stop on a carriageway of a Motorway unless of course you are prevented from moving by another vehicle or object. Likewise, it is an offence for a vehicle to be driven or to stop on the hardshoulder unless in the case of breakdown , accident, illness or other emergency, or stopped to allow someone to remove an object off the carriageway, or to give help to anyone stopped for these reasons. There should be no need to stop unless in very heavy traffic or use the hard shoulder as an extra to the slip road as traffic on the main carriageway will be leaving a gap in front of them for another vehicle to overtake and slot in if required. By judging the gap when coming down the slip road and adjusting speed then one should be able to slot it. Good drivers on the main carriageway whuilst not required to do so by law ,showing consideration will similarly adjust their speed to allow this or if traffic conditions allow move over to the centre lane. A little bit of give and take by all and there should be no problem" "Wotiff Moatyways merge" slurred Mole rapidly, leaning forward , shaking his head like a noddy dog at Badger and spilling more wine in the process. "I think you will find it that case, as the carriageways have equal importance, Sign will not be present but lanes will gradually reduce to three over some distance. Now what ARE you doing on the floor Mole" "Know Badge, that's potent stuff" declared Mole, legs in the air and a glazed look in his eye, " under different circum, circumcircumstances I would ask Mid Life to put Toad down on PNC as a Misper and circulkate on an All Ports Warning but I will leave it as I am terribly, terribly drunk." |
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Sat 22 Mar 03 19:41
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - Dwight Van Driver
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PS. Tesco's Cotes De Rhone - white label red letters, red band if anyone interested. I don't think you will be disappointed. DVD |
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Sat 22 Mar 03 22:26
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - Fullchat
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| Good effort DVD! I knew you would come to my aid. You make it sound so easy. |
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Sat 22 Mar 03 23:16
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - Nsar
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"There should be no need to stop unless in very heavy traffic or use the hard shoulder as an extra to the slip road as traffic on the main carriageway will be leaving a gap in front of them for another vehicle to overtake and slot in if required. By judging the gap when coming down the slip road and adjusting speed then one should be able to slot it." Top post DVD, but.....it's all about ifs, shoulds and maybes. This is mammoth thread is about real life when lanes are full of divvies who can't/won't take others into consideration and the outcomes of trying to impose your will on others (whether you're joining the m/way or in lane 1). In that situation, take the heat out of it, don't spend that vital 2 seconds between appearing at the business end of the slip road and actually reaching the white line in checking yor mirror for possible rear end shunters, assessing whether the vehicles you're trying to squeeze between are generous souls or that other type of *****ole and deciding whether to come to a dead stop and then worry about how you're going to get out of that nasty little problem or whether you're going to choose your metre of space and force your way in. Would a maths expert care to suggest how much of the slip road you cover in that 2 seconds at say 60mph? Be visible and obvious but unthreatening in your intentions and don't get into a high pressure, all or nothing situation at the end of the slip road that can only be solved by either you imposing your will on another driver or relying on another driver to be charitable towards you. If the choice is between following the letter of the law as regards using the hard shoulder and breaking the law by using the hard shoulder for perhaps 100 metres in order to reduce risk to myself and others in a volatile situation, then I'll go for safety every time and I'm prepared to bet that plod will see it for the common sense that it is - what would he prefer to do, issue a fine for a minor transgression or clean up a smash on a busy m/way? |
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Sat 22 Mar 03 23:39
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - Obsolete
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| I do about 15K per year and in the last 5 years I have twice had to continue from the slip road onto the hard shoulder. On one occasion a powerful Beamer came from behind and sat between me and the motorway blocking my route. I had no alternative but to use the hard shoulder for 100m or so. I judged stopping on the slip road to be too dangerous. On the other occasion a long line of lorries with almost no space between each blocked my entrance and I judged it too dangerous to nose in. I eventually had to nose my way in only to be intimidated, tailgated, hooted and flashed repeatedly by a lorry. Mind you this has not happened for a year or two (touch wood) so maybe my forward observation and anticipation skills are getting better? |
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Sun 23 Mar 03 05:35
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - Dave_TD {P}
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| 53.64 metres in two seconds at 60mph. |
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Sun 23 Mar 03 09:47
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - Flat in Fifth
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"On one occasion a powerful Beamer came from behind and sat between me and the motorway blocking my route." Leif, I used to have trouble with these jokers, who overtake everything on the slip road, then sit alongside you and "nick" your carefully planned target space. The way I've tended to avoid this is to anticipate the situation developing and try and occupy command position in lane two of the slip road myself but not infringe on the space for vehicles ahead. Unfortunately this doesn't stop the reverse, ie someone positioning themselves on the alongside on one's left on the slip. Of course as soon as you've merged into lane 1 M-way proper then there they are "demanding" to be let out. On one particularly bad junction afraid I just straddle the white line down the slip thereby occupying both lanes, selfish and wrong I know, but it seems to work in keeping that space. Even the thrusting reps in Lagunas get the meesage. |
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Sun 23 Mar 03 10:33
'Give Way' at motorway slip roads - Obsolete
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The way I've tended to avoid this is to anticipate the situation developing and try and occupy command position in lane two of the slip road myself but not infringe on the space for vehicles ahead. FIF: Sound advice. Actually this method of positioning the car to prevent others performing an ill-advised manouevre is exactly what I am looking to learn/improve. I'm hoping Ripley's book covers this sort of stuff. I don't think Roadcraft does. |
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Sun 23 Mar 03 09:35
News about Toad - Flat in Fifth
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"I would ask Mid Life to put Toad down on PNC as a Misper and circulkate on an All Ports Warning I have it on good authority that Toad is alive and well having been kissed by a flying princess [1] and is now..... " Prince:- the artist formerly known as Toad" [1] not that Toad would be boastful about such matters in any way but it seems that he is prevented by reactionary forces from sharing his good news with the rest of the riverbank at large. |
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Sun 23 Mar 03 10:05
News about Toad - Dwight Van Driver
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FiF >> it seems that he is prevented by reactionary forces from sharing his good news with the rest of the riverbank at large>> in which case under the Human Rights Act it would appear he has a good case for claiming Asylum. Because I am tyred, can you indicate and steer me to the engine room where this can be sorted? DVD (60 secs?) |
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Sun 23 Mar 03 10:51
Pushy joiners. - M.M
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In all my decades of driving I've never used the hard shoulder as a run-off. Also only come to a halt once and that was the other day behind "someone driving something" who stopped suddenly because they couldn't judge the gap. Comming to a halt isn't ideal but using the hard shoulder is admission that you got it all badly wrong (sorry Leif). Doing this there is every chance of confusing the traffic on the carriageway leading to an accident...or running into the rear of a broken down vehicle that you'd not noticed. As for being snookered by some numpty in lane one who is too busy trying to balance his cup of coffee without dropping his mobile phone, whilst picking a CD from the glovebox!"...well again that can only happen if you get it wrong by joining in a manner that means the driver with the right of way *has* to deviate. Accept an offer with good grace by all means but never assume. MM |
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Sun 23 Mar 03 11:31
Pushy joiners. - Obsolete
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Comming to a halt isn't ideal but using the hard shoulder is admission that you got it all badly wrong (sorry Leif). For the most part I agree with you. Most of the time if a driver gets into trouble it could have been avoided by forward observation. As I have said elsewhere, I am surprised how few incidents (if any) I have these days and how many potential incidents I manage to avoid by guessing what matey might do. I guess this is a mixture of learning from experience and from Ripley etc. |
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Sun 23 Mar 03 12:28
Pushy joiners. - M.M
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Yes Leif...Forward observation and defensive* driving. *As opposed to the offensive style which relies so much on others allowing your *right* to free passage. MM |
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Sun 23 Mar 03 15:08
Pushy joiners. - Obsolete
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| LOL. Yes, defensive driving is what I (try) to practice. I do wish that such things were mentioned when I 'learnt' to drive. Although I have never had an accident (ignoring a couple of times when someone shunted me) it might have made driving more fun. |
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Sun 23 Mar 03 20:44
News about Toad - Flat in Fifth
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Now then Obi Wan DVDobi, Despite also being tyred and emotional due to excesses of gardening and Tesco's Cotes de Rhone [1] reckon can manage to help here. So you want me to indicate and steer you in the right direction. An honour indeed! Let me offer you the system. 1) Mirror - all appears clear, Darth Vader and the Storm Trooper's reactions slow tonight. 2) Signal - no one to gain advantage from the signal so........ 3) Manoeuvre - Concentrate Obi Wan you will find that the way will become clear.... May the Force be with you! [1] good steer the other day before the unwashed hordes descend on Tessies. Thanks. |
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Sun 23 Mar 03 21:11
News about Toad - doug_523i
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| If the user of the slip road gives way, in heavy traffic, then they could end up stopped at the end of the sliproad, with no opportunity to get up to speed to join the motorway, and Mr BMW is approaching down the sliproad at 125mph thinking you are moving, scary. I've often thought a short fourth lane is needed at junctions, like where the M57 joins the M62 heading east, it's especially handy for hgv drivers as it's an uphill stretch at that junction. |
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