It is an engineering fact that it is just as easy to make something that looks pretty as it is to make the same thing that looks ugly. An attractive paint colour cannot cost any more to apply than something that is just plain dull.
Why then do car manufacturers produce wheels that look like some internal part of a machine that is not meant for the eye, and paint them in uninspiring matt black? They then have to cover their sins with a silver frisbee in order to inspire anyone to part with their wedge in order to buy the product.
Do they think we are amused when pulling up at traffic lights to see yet another trim detach itself and roll gently across the junction, to be crushed to a pulp under the wheels of the passing traffic, making one's gleaming nearly new car instantly look like a ten year old banger?
Please don't suggest cable ties, it's bad enough getting a puncture on a wet night without having to search for something to cut the bloody things
Maybe there is a reason, but I can't think of it.
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Not known for my short answers Tom I will try and be brief, the reason is simply marketing.
Look at the spec list of new motors, there is always something there in each model option that is going to tempt somebody somewhere to trade up to just one spec level, despite that 80% of the extra goodies in the higher spec are of little use to man nor beast. (unless its front fog lights and then the worlds your lobster Rodders)
Therfore its a relatively cheap way for the manufacturer to allow you to say to Mr&Mrs Bloggs next door, but we have a GLXSCDGT with a little red i. The fact that Mr&Mrs Bloggs do not care two hoots is irrelevant except in the mind of the purchaser.
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Tom
Look on the bright side. At least kerbing a steel wheel will usually do no more than scratch the wheel trim, and even if you do make a real pigs ear of it, replacing either a trim or wheel is reasonably cheap. However, kerb an alloy, and it looks awful, is probably not repairable, and costs a fortune to replace.
So why, I ask, do the makers put posh alloys on city cars and superminis, which are going to be used around town most of the time, and therefore most at risk of being kerbed? 'Showroom appeal' with no practical sense.
As for the wheel trims - many are not easy to fit on correctly, and I suspect many get lost for just that reason. The other reason for loss is visitors to the 'midnight garage'.
regards
john
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........or "Car Park Accessories" as it is know around these parts.
Not all steelies are ugly - look at the steel wheels on basic VW Polos - a little "finisher" to cover the bolt heads and hey presto!
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Guy,
Hate to agree with you on a VW thing but......
Had a new Jetta TX (GTi interior trim/wheels etc + straight 1600 engine) in 1986, tornado red. Looked really nice with the supplied steel wheels just with that trim disc that you mention over the middle.
On a more general note I do hate cars that come in with two/three cable ties per wheel to hold on the trims. Really eats into the profit putting 8+ of them back on after a service.
David
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Guy Lacey wrote:
> Not all steelies are ugly - look at the steel wheels on basic
> VW Polos - a little "finisher" to cover the bolt heads and
> hey presto!
Guy, Guy, Guy.
You've become obsessed by blocky Spanio-Germanic engineering.
Let's be asolutely clear about this.
VW's are crap.
They have a reputation for reliability based on using old fashioned engines.
Perlease! A single cam engine in a new car in 2001? Only the ageing female knumbskulls that buy them would tolerate 60bhp from a 1.4 engine, 55bhp from a 1.3 engine or 40bhp from a 1.0.
The fact that VW customers tend to be loyal to the brand is because they never drive anything else to realise how c*ap their VW is.
Now you homework is to go and try something with traditonally poor build quality. I recomend the Daihatsu Sirion 1.3.
You will say this is Jap crap. But when you drive one you will realise it is of similar quality to your kakky golfs for half the cash and will be much more fun to drive.
And what is more you will be a man, my son.
And bring me my Worthers originals.
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130 bhp from a 1.9 Turbo Diesel in the new passat- isn't all that bad is it Dave ? -
With regard to BHP in "real" situations you don't want to have to rev the engine like hell to make decent progress, VWs have real low down torque where you need it, making for a far more relaxed drive, so your argument is shot to bits.
That Sirion "joke" from Daihatsu is so bad that I can only remember seeing one on the road ever.
If VWs were crap, there wouldn't be so many around would there ?
enjoy yer toffees ! ! !
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Bobby wrote:
>
> 130 bhp from a 1.9 Turbo Diesel in the new passat- isn't
> all that bad is it Dave ?
V. good. It makes 130 from the petrol 1.8 look pathetic though!
Their 1.4 diesel makes 60 - so does their 1.4 petrol engine.
Crap.
> With regard to BHP in "real" situations you don't want to
> have to rev the engine like hell to make decent progress, VWs
> have real low down torque where you need it,
Well, my 1.3 didn't, and the 1.0 polo I took out didn't. Even the figures suggest they don't.
My Bros 1.8 Passat is good though. (But that's a revvy little b*stard whch knocks your torque argument into the woods.)
> If VWs were crap, there wouldn't be so many around would
> there ?
Like like saying if herpes was bad there would be so much around!
> enjoy yer toffees ! ! !
Hmm. Toffee.
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What about the torque ?
My V6 2.5l Diesel Passat Estate will eat many petrol cars 0-60mph, AND I get 40mpg with a heavy right foot, and 50 mpg if I tickle the throttle. Just a pity it doesn't go round corners!
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">My V6 2.5l Diesel Passat Estate will eat many petrol cars 0-60mph<" Ah yes, but did your victims know you were racing? I must admit I thought most road users believed that Passat drivers (particularly the desiseal variety) could not possibly understand the concept of "making good progress", therefore a "traffic light drag" (is that the correct term?) would be furthest from any normal driver's mind when pulling alongside a Passat (disiseal) at the lights. Do the local constabulary know that you race on Her Majesty's Highway? Or perhaps all your racing against the humble petrol cars is at Santa Pod?
Hur, hur
M
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I guess this is all about features and benefits, which are not the same.
Smart looking wheels are a feature - the benfit comes when they add value to an otherwise dull car, or allow manufacturers to hike the price on the GLXSCDGT with the little red "i". It's relatively easy and cheap to do this with a uni-coloured base steel wheel.
Why black? Dunno really. Maybe they're cheaper to paint to a satisfactory finish. After all, if they were silver they would soon show manufacturing blemishes and have to be re-worked.
On the subject of the VW centre caps, Peugeot used to fit lovely plain discs on the 404 (1960s Farina styled Austin Cambridge lookalike) and they were retained with a centre bolt, tightened with the wheelbrace. I never lost a single one!
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Sorry, I'm dyslexic again and left a bit out. I meant to say:
"Smart looking wheels are a feature - the benefit comes when they add value to an otherwise dull car, or allow manufacturers to hike the price on the GLXSCDGT with the little red "i". It's relatively easy and cheap to do with a PLASTIC TRIM over a uni coloured base steel wheel.
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Are you guys seriously arguing about the cost of cable ties to fit wheel trims? If so many are used in a garage environment you should be able to buy them for well less than a penny a piece! If cable ties appeared on a bill of mine the garage wouldn't see any more of my business, not that they do anywayJ
The only reason I can think of why the inner wheel is black is that it is less obvious when you put a silver trim on top of it. The black will not show through the holes in the trim as easily, but a silver wheel behind the trim would break up the patten of the trim itself so looking more awkward.
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IMHO the steel wheels on a fiat Barchetta are rather attractive.
And I'd hazard a guess that most VWs (sub GTi) never exceed 3500 rpm. Twin cams and 16 valves are pretty irrelevant.
Maintaining a 10 yr old VW is a piece of P*ss. Daihatsu parts specialist? It's a disposible car, sir.
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There are two types of cable ties. The permanent ones which need to be cut through and the ones that can be removed by pushing on a little tag(cost more). The removeable ones I find very useful and apart from wiring have used them to suspend things.
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Wheel trims held in place by zip-ties as David Woollard says, are a complete pain in the a**e, both in a workshop situation point of view and at night when a wheel needs to be changed on the way to an executive dinner.
Replacing these clips after the trims have been removed at service time
(yes-we do actually remove the wheels!) is a real fiddle and can add 10 minutes to the job, not to mention the cost of the silver coloured ties themselves.
I know it might sound penny pinching, but the small £'s look after the big £'s and these damn clips are not cheap!
On to the subject of why are steel wheels black?
I think this is fairly obvious!
What colour is brake dust? (By the way, have you seen the clouds of brake dust being thrown up by an F1 car under heavy braking?)
Why do my nice shiny alloys appear black after 200 miles of motoring?
With black steel wheels the dust never shows, well not until you have to handle the wheel at service time and then your hands get covered!
Citroen seem to have the right idea on this one - BX steel wheels have no holes or slots in them so no dust makes its way out to the wheel trim area
Rgds
David
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Am I to interpret from the replies by the Davids (W & L) that you guys do not charge for supplying & putting these ties back on?
If that is correct all credit to you, instead of charging the punter for the full price of a new packet even though you only want eight.
So there is honour and a service philosophy in the motor trade, not that I actually expected anything else from you two guys anyway.
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I have never, yet, charged for these ties. I think my customers would take exception if I charged for them. We need to retain our customers these days so any upset has to be avoided at all costs.
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No never charged for these to keep wheel trims on. Have charged for those large ones that you could lift a head off with, particularly if they were involved in an ingenious repair that saved the customer a lot of money on say a silly underbonnet trim part.
Yes Citroen had it spot on with solid wheels and flat disc wheel trims. No dust at all.
David
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If you do not charge for materials and time, and take a loss or reduce your profit margin as a result, that is fine by me. If your service is high quality and you are honest and reliable, the punter will pay handsomely to be able to get appointments at your garage. With your philosophy, in the end, though, your charity either costs your other customers extra, or you personally end up poorer or bankrupt - if the latter, all your customers lose because they cannot then get your quality of service at any price.
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Jon,
Are you saying you want to pay and we should charge?
David
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Yes, I (We) take your point but the pennies look after the pounds, Bill
We do have some common sense and heart, after all we are only human.....
Jon, look at Bill's reply and see why we don't charge for sundry items such as cable ties - we would end up with no customers!
nuff said..
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All the debate about cable ties re-enforces my original point about wheel trims.
I mean, no other part of the car has to be tied on by the owner to prevent it from falling off.
It would cost nothing extra to make a wheel that was pleasing to the eye, and a durable paint job would surely be cheaper than comissioning a third party to make the plastic trims. Have you ever seen the price main dealers want for original replacements? Be more economical to chrome plate the wheels.
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Another Citroen good idea - wheel trims held on by the wheel bolts. Problem solved.
Chris
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Tom Shaw wrote:
>
> All the debate about cable ties re-enforces my original point
> about wheel trims.
> I mean, no other part of the car has to be tied on by the
> owner to prevent it from falling off.
Pug 306 59000 miles - still has original wheel trims, never used cable
ties. Probably due to the fact that the way that they are held on is that
more better than your Halfords £12 rubbish.
Your usual wheel trim has moulded tabs with a piece of thick steel wire.
Pug trims have rubberised tabs added.
And they look pretty good as well.
/John
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Yes, you should charge if it bothers you two Davids (Lacey & Woollard). Clearly, it does because you were complaining about the time it takes, plus the cost of silver cable ties, etc.. If this cost is minimal, then that comes out of your overall charges. Otherwise, it is charity and if you can aford it, do not complain. The receipients probably do not even know that you have given to their cause "the church of cable ties".
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One gets the feeling they were only half moaning and half joking
By the way, can u say where ur garages are? as they sound kinda alright?
If not, do u know any decent ones in Sheffield?
Thanks, Kev
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Spot on Kev, forum posting humor mixed with truth.
Can't say for David L but I post to this and two more vehicle forums, have a BX enthusiasts website and write a monthly column for the Citroen Car Club. Have decided to give advice in these arenas without the slightest charge of canvassing for business so never say where I'm based or exactly what I do.
Sorry if that sounds rude but it avoids any conflict of interest.
David
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Yeah [very sensible] point taken, better not say that i dont own a Citroen then........
Kev,
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Come on the VW massive!
Glad to see I have finally worn down David W's resistance and he, too, is becoming a fan of the Wolfsburg Marque.
When Daihatsu have produced a VW Lupo beating "3-litre" economy diesel or an innovative engine such as the VR6 or even W12 or a 130bhp economical diesel then come back to me.
VW are *the* innovators in engines unlike many Jap firms who simply carbon copy Euro designs (Lexus vs Mercedes?) - badly.
On the subject of brake dust - I don't suffer from any as I use EBC Green Stuff kevlar pads - the best I have ever tried and zero dust. Fantastic.
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Guy Lacey wrote:
>
> Come on the VW massive!
>
> Glad to see I have finally worn down David W's resistance and
> he, too, is becoming a fan of the Wolfsburg Marque.
If he likes them I'd say he's never owned one. Certainly not 3, as I have.
> When Daihatsu have produced a VW Lupo beating "3-litre"
> economy diesel or an innovative engine such as the VR6 or
> even W12 or a 130bhp economical diesel then come back to me.
A 130bhp diesel! Great. But their petrol engine of about the same size *also* makes 130bhp. Which means it must be a pile of crap.
Daihatsu have a 100bhp 1.3. VW came up with a 60bhp 1.4. QED!
By the way Guy. Diesels are smelly and boring! When I reach 30 I might think about one. Not a day before though.
> VW are *the* innovators in engines unlike many Jap firms who
> simply carbon copy Euro designs (Lexus vs Mercedes?) - badly.
According to Autocar (I swear I never buy this - must have seen it in the dentist) the Technical Director of Mercedes agreed that Mercedes could never afford suspension castings of the quality of the Lexus.
Lexus are better built than mercs and even Mercedes agree.
> On the subject of brake dust - I don't suffer from any as I
> use EBC Green Stuff kevlar pads - the best I have ever tried
> and zero dust. Fantastic.
I guess the starndard VW pads wern't up to the job then!
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I've ended up test-driving a lot of small new cars over recent months and have to say that all the small and small-medium cars in the VW group stable exceed expectations in terms of comfort, refinement, economy, and pleasure.
I will be looking forward to the day when every manufacturer offers the same level of ergonomics and design in their cars as can be found in VWs today. The excellent residual values are a bonus not enjoyed by Ford, Fiat, Renault, Peugeot, Honda, the list goes on. . .
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Neil wrote:
>
> I've ended up test-driving a lot of small new cars over
> recent months and have to say that all the small and
> small-medium cars in the VW group stable exceed expectations
> in terms of comfort, refinement, economy, and pleasure.
Ok, I'll give you the Passat. Nice car.
But please the Polo? It's horrible! I'e only driven the 1 litre but it was gutless. ALso it was hewn from one solid lump of plastic and had bare painted metal around the doors.
> I will be looking forward to the day when every manufacturer
> offers the same level of ergonomics and design in their cars
> as can be found in VWs today.
Like single cam engines. Christ. I'd accept a single cam engine in a 1964 bread lorry but this is 2001!
> The excellent residual values
> are a bonus not enjoyed by Ford, Fiat, Renault, Peugeot,
> Honda, the list goes on. . .
Residuals are good. But parts are a nightmare.
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At the end of the day, today's Polo and Ibiza, regardless of engine capacity, are still better places to be than any other small car with their scratchy plastics. And the top of the range Fabia is a better place again.
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Neil wrote:
>
> At the end of the day, today's Polo and Ibiza, regardless of
> engine capacity, are still better places to be than any other
> small car with their scratchy plastics. And the top of the
> range Fabia is a better place again.
Hmmm. Vauxhall Astra? Vauxhall interiors are very good. Just the steering's a bit soggy.
I'm bored with this argument now!
You can spend 10 grand on 60bhp and I'll spend 700 quid on 100bhp and we'll see who eats the motorway miles in more comfort.
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And what new car are you buying for £700? Tamiya?
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Neil wrote:
>
> And what new car are you buying for £700? Tamiya?
Yeah. My logic was that a new car should always be better than a 10 year old one, but that's flawed...
I'm going to stop being argumentatiuve now.
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What about VW Diesel torque ?
My V6 2.5l Diesel Passat Estate will eat many petrol cars 0-60mph ( 8.5 secs ), AND I get 40mpg with a heavy right foot, and 50 mpg if I tickle the throttle. You'll need to spend a lot more on and Audi/BMW or Merc to get this performance.
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Ah yes, the mighty Diesel Passat Estate, be careful Cossie drivers, watchout Westfield owners, all is lost, the all powerful Diesel Passat Estate is amongst us (what next for the Passat? Santa Pod?) It is well known (amongst those who know) that diseseals are far, far quicker than, well, almost anything.
Hur,hur
M
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Micky,
Where were you on the "Why do they hate us" thread when we really needed some "huh huh"?
Have to agree that the turbo diesel can deal with any Cossie/GTi. Just let them get close thinking about overtaking, let the turbo go on boost and they are enveloped in a cloud of smoke as a cupful of diesel goes straight through the pump thanks to the boost enrichment. Even better if the car has been poodled along for the previous few miles.
And this is, of course, why they need the HJ Italian tuneup prior to MOT.
David
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David W wrote: ">Where were you on the "Why do they hate us" thread when we really needed some "huh huh"?<" I am still working my way through a "Boggushess" post, I'll get there soon.
Re: Dissealls and smoke, I find that French desseall is far better for that important smoke screen and black particles effect, so vital to fend off the amorous advances of thrusting young men in their GTIs (anall day benders anyone?)
Hur,hur
M
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Andrew wrote:
>
> What about VW Diesel torque ?
>
> My V6 2.5l Diesel Passat Estate will eat many petrol cars
> 0-60mph
Yeah, I hear McLaren are looking at a diesel F1 car.
NOT!!!!
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Thank heaven we are getting back to normality. Humour and sanity have reared their heads on this site again.
What was that you said Uncle Albert?
" Now during the war......................"
AAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHH!
(rem set:humour=on)
Mind you some smart arse will come back saying it does not apply as I have rem'd it out!
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Stuart B wrote:
>
> Thank heaven we are getting back to normality. Humour and
> sanity have reared their heads on this site again.
>
> What was that you said Uncle Albert?
>
> " Now during the war......................"
Well you started it!
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Dave wrote:
>
> Stuart B wrote:
> >
> > Thank heaven we are getting back to normality. Humour and
> > sanity have reared their heads on this site again.
> >
> > What was that you said Uncle Albert?
> >
> > " Now during the war......................"
>
>
>
> Well you started it!
>
>
Dont bring Basil into it, if Blair reads this we really will get a ministry of silly walks.
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