All - 4 banger vs 6 pot. challenge - unthrottled

A friend of mine has an Audi 2.5 V6 and he is very proud of the fact that it is silky smooth unlike a 'rough 4 cylinder'. The trouble is, apart from brief excursions of hard acceleration, it is impossible to run the engine at any appreciable load accept at very low RPM. Clearly having an engine spinning away at low load is inefficient and wastes fuel.

This started a debate. For a given output in horsepower, which has the lowest NVH-a 6 cylinder at X RPM or a 4 cylinder at 1.5X RPM. To make things fair, the bore, stroke piston mass, conrod length, compression ratio and engine load were set to the same level.

Conventional wisdom has it that a straight 6 is perfectly balanced and smooth, whilst the 4 cylinder has a nasty secondary unbalanced force which will shake the fillings out of your teeth.

The 6 cylinder also benefits from more frequent torque delivery due to having a firing impulse every 120 Crankshaft degrees, vs 180 crankshaft degrees for the 4 cylinder.

The 4 cylinder engine is assumed not to have balance shafts. We modelled two engines: gasoline and diesel.

Gas engine: Compression ratio=10, bore=stroke=3.25" (86mm)

2.0litre I4 vs 3.0l I6

Diesel engine: Compression ratio =16, bore =8.25", stroke =3.75" (82mm*95mm)

Torque demand: 30 lbf.ft (40nm) per cylinder 120lbf.ft for the 4 banger, and 180lbf.ft for the 6 pot.

Which engine is the smoothest? Answers on a postcard!

All - 4 banger vs 6 pot. challenge - RT

Your post details the undoubted smoothness of an I6 compared to an I4 - but your friend has a V6 which has uneven firing intervals and is inherently rougher an an I6 or an I4.

Edited by RT on 22/06/2011 at 20:58

All - 4 banger vs 6 pot. challenge - unthrottled

There hasn't been an oddfire V6 made for over nearly 40 years. All V6s have an even firing order. V6s with a bank angle of anything other than 60 degrees use split crankpins to ensure there is an even firing interval of 120 degrees. V6s require only a single contra rotating balance shaft running at crankshaft speed to largely cure the uncoupled primary moment causing an end to end rocking motion and can therefore be considered balanced.

Any prediction?

All - 4 banger vs 6 pot. challenge - bathtub tom

>>Conventional wisdom has it that a straight 6 is perfectly balanced

I used to think that, until it was pointed out something about secondary summat or other, or maybe that was boxers.

Edited by bathtub tom on 22/06/2011 at 21:18

All - 4 banger vs 6 pot. challenge - Bobbin Threadbare

Would not an inline V6 be smoother? How about variable valve timing improving things?

All - 4 banger vs 6 pot. challenge - unthrottled

And what is an inline V6 Bobin?!

All - 4 banger vs 6 pot. challenge - unthrottled

Both I6s and Flat 6s have pretty much perfect primary and secondary balance. The V6 is near as dammit if the balance shaft is added.

Variable valve timing shouldn't make any difference to NVH.

All - 4 banger vs 6 pot. challenge - Bobbin Threadbare

You have all 6 cylinders in a line along the crank case. I thought those fell out of use because they're too big; you get them in long nosed Yankee cars.

Do you have an answer to your problem that you're satisfied with by the way?

A 4 cylinder is unbalanced, right, so you suffer the vibration or you put a flywheel on, or you put the cylinders in a line.

All - 4 banger vs 6 pot. challenge - unthrottled

I do have an answer and the results surprised me even though I've done a bit of NVH before. At this juncture I should point out that all vibration is assumed to come from the crankshaft torque fluctuations. The rubber engine mounts are assumed to absorb all engine vibrations so any vibration must come from the crank and be transmitted to the driveline.

I compared the torque fluctuations from at the following speeds:

4 pot @1500 RPM vs 6 pot at 1000 RPM

" 3000 RPM " 2000 RPM

" 4500 RPM " 3000 RPM

This represents the engine speeds that a typical drive would use for 90% of their driving.

At low engine speeds, the inertial forces are trivial compare to the firing pulses. At about 4000 RPM the inertial forces become comparable to gas forces and rapidly romp away at higher speeds.

The 6 pot wins at very low and very high engine speeds. But the 4 pot proves to be remarkably smooth in it's mid range of 2000-4000 RPM.

In fact in this region it blows the blows the 6 pot away in terms of refinement. So running a 4 pot at 3000RPM is smoother and largely more efficient than running the 6 pot at 2000 RPM. Bear in mind that the two engines are making identical power so the 4 pot is making the same progress as the 6. That is a real surprise.

V6 friend is gutted!

All - 4 banger vs 6 pot. challenge - Bobbin Threadbare

Your V6 mate might be better off with a Subaru then ;-)

All - 4 banger vs 6 pot. challenge - Vitesse6

Well my ancient Triumph with it's straight six is both beautifully smooth and sounds glorious into the bargain. Yes I am biased, but given the choice it's a six pot every time!

All - 4 banger vs 6 pot. challenge - unthrottled

5 or a 6?

All - 4 banger vs 6 pot. challenge - SteveLee

I can't remember the last time I drove a (petrol) car where engine vibration was even an issue, modern engine mounts, the common use of balance shafts and the lack of misfires given modern fuel and ignition systems have almost rendered this a non-argument. Engine smoothness is taken for granted, you can't feel most engines these days regardless of configuration.

All - 4 banger vs 6 pot. challenge - madf

I can't remember the last time I drove a (petrol) car where engine vibration was even an issue, modern engine mounts, the common use of balance shafts and the lack of misfires given modern fuel and ignition systems have almost rendered this a non-argument. Engine smoothness is taken for granted, you can't feel most engines these days regardless of configuration.

Agree.

Even some diesels are v good. (NOT VAG 1.9TDI)

All - 4 banger vs 6 pot. challenge - unthrottled

I agree entirely. But how often do you hear motoring journalists insisting that the 4 cylinder second order imbalance is a huge problem? Actually at low speeds the magnitude of these forces are tiny, and at moderate speeds they help attenuate the firing pulses. So the 4 cylinder's imbalance is key to its mid range refinement. Only at high engine speeds are they relevant.

It is interesting that Honda have traditionally been very fond of the 4 cylinder and their engineers never saw much need for a 6 cylinder. However marketing requirements in North America dictated that they should have one.

All - 4 banger vs 6 pot. challenge - RT

But you disallowed balance shafts on the I4 for comparison - you do need to compare like-with-like.

All - 4 banger vs 6 pot. challenge - unthrottled

Yes-but a single balance shaft running at crankspeed is mechanically straight forward-and virtually universally applied. The I4 requires twin contra rotating balance shafts running at twice crank speed-and are often not used because the implementation is problematic.

The point I didn't emphasise-and I should have done, is that the imbalance is what makes the I4 so unusually smooth in its mid range. The inertial forces are out of phase with the torque flux from successive compression and expansion strokes so the resulting torque output is smoothened.

This only really occurs with the I4. The I3 and I5 cannot put their unbalanced couple to good use.