These forums are full of tales of motorists taking cars, with defined faults, into dealers and being charged for repairs which don't work. They are then subsequently charged for more repairs to fix the same fault and even this, sometimes, is ineffective. Surely this is, or should be, against the law? It could be construed as a type of fraud.
I recently asked my wife to take her car into a garage because the exhaust was making a noise. She was shown a hole and properly charged for a part that worked. Had she been charged for new brake discs, and left with the exhaust still barking away, I'd have been up there like a flash threatening all sorts of retribution. Why do we motorists put up with similar scenarios when they involve the moving parts?
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This is a tricky one and as I am in the IT support business an area I know a lot about. The law states that a service must be carried with reasonable skill and care. Now the law gets a lot more tricky if you ask for the service repair my noisy slow car, the garage replaced the defective cat and this was a successful diagnoses. However the AFM is also on its why out, the garage missed this first time. What would be expected? The problem is it is a very complicated subject matter.
The key to it was, was the original diagnoses carried out with reasonable care and skill? We all know how complicated cars are these days.
As longs as I know the garage has taken good care then if it dosn't fix it first time I won't be mad. There is also a limit though to how many times this can happen. What I don't agree with is mechanics swapping parts in trial and error and hope it fixes it, this is not reasonable care or skill.
The way I see it:-
You ask for a two new front springs, they replace the rear ones - That is ilegal it happened to me I went ballistic since my rear springs were new anyway. They agreed it was there mistake and put it right.
You go in with a miss firing car, they find the plugs are worn and replace them you drive back to still see the miss fire is there, they then find there is a serious ECU fault causing one of the coils not to fire. The plugs still needed to be replaced so was the garage at fault here? This is where it gets tricky.
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These forums are full of tales of motorists taking cars with defined faults into dealers and being charged for repairs which don't work. They are then subsequently charged for more repairs to fix the same fault and even this sometimes is ineffective.
Give us an actual tale.
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The Peugeot dealer I used to use with my old 306 used to throw "needs a new ECU" at every single problem. I remember suffering a persistent stalling / self-revving problem with the car which they recommended an ECU change to cure, and when the lease company refused to authorise it, and put pressure on them to resolve the problem (how many private owners would just cough up?), they found it to be nothing more catastrophic than a sticking stepper motor. Similarly when a colleague's 406 HDi got stuck in ECO MODE after running out of fuel, they wanted to fit a new ECU to solve that. Same scenario, but this time a simple software upgrade was all that was needed.
The only time I've ever known a main dealer fix a fault first time was a turbo pipe split on our old Scenic. That (excellent) dealer was an early victim of the recession, I'm sorry to say. My experience with main dealers on various company cars has simply reinforced my will never to use them for anything other than the bare minimum needed to preserve a warranty. I have genuinely lost count of the number of times I've had cars returned to me with "no fault found" (and an hours labour charge), or parts replaced that have not cured faults. These aren't always complex technical faults either.
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Give us an actual tale.
"It needs a new ECU, mate" seems to be quite common around here.
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Had she been charged for new brake discs and left with the exhaust still barking away I'd have been up there like a flash
Fault finding in any environment is often done by elimination, which sometimes means changing parts, especially if the fault is "partial" (ie the vehicle still works, but not as well as it should do).
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Hainspent time working in a workshop, I would say it comes down to two things. Firstly, you need a mechanic who has alot of experience with model of car that is faulty and secondly, you need a workshop manager who directs such cars to the appropriate mechanic.
I had a long running problem with a knocking noise from my front brakes on my car - it went in 4 times in the end - they cleaned up the brakes several times, checked suspension etc etc. In the end, they found that the pads were 'lipped' and replaced them and cleaned off the discs aswell - been great ever since. The last guy who looked at it was a 25 year Daihatsu mechanic... enough said as the others were Ford.
They didnt charge me for two of the visits as compensation for not finding the problem in the first place, but I was happy to pay for the cleaning work as it prob needed doing. A good garage charges fairly.
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stunorthants26 is spot on when he says jobs need to go to the right mechanic. When a Passat I had experienced a wind noise problem it went into one dealer about 4 times before they decided the noise didn't exist so couldn't fix it - despite claiming to have done hours of work investigating.
At the next dealer, I went out with someone who not only heard it but had a plan of action which sounded good. It went in and twice it was not fixed and they washed their hands. Then after getting onto VW who said "tough basically". I asked dealer if 'Chris' had worked on it and the answer was 'no' and they'd give him a chance. He fixed it straight away.
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Similar thing happened with me, it kept loosing power when I needed it e.g crossing a busy three lane carraigeway. Knowing what I do about Corsas I instantly assumed it was a MAF. Took to garage no fault code stored but he tested the idle stepper motor and ran a load of tests.
He then found that looking at the data it appeared to be running in limp mode at times. He reset the ECU and told me to see how it goes (there was no charge for this) then a few days later the ECU light came on. Took it back he read the fault code came back as Lambda low voltage so I will need a new lamdba sensor. This where I spoke up and said I think it is the AFM due to similar stories and that is what is throwing the fuel mixture out causing the lamdba sensor to to correctly read incorrect fuel mixture. He agreed and next day decided it was probably the MAF. I replaced the MAF myself then took it to the garage to have him reset the ECU. This was 2000 miles ago and since then my engine has ran like a brand new car, no hesitation, no miss fires no nothing just a very smooth power delivery curve (well for a 1.2 litre!). I bought the Bosch MAF for £86 vx wanted over £200 just for the part.
If I had taken it to a vauxhall dealer and they diagnosed the lamdba first time round I could have easily ended up with a £600 bill, instead I got change out of £100.
So I think having basic knowledge of modern ECU systems is very important. I have lost count the might of times other garages have told us "it needs an new ECU mate" when its usualy some silly sensor, in case of my dads Escort a £3.50 temp sensor the ECU.
We get a lot ot this on the Corsa site, garage say its the ECU, 9/10 its always the EGR valve or AFM.
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In my experience main dealers don't have a clue when it comes to fault finding, at least for electronic faults. When my car started cutting out and displaying 'engine system fault' on the dash (just out of warranty!) the dealer diagnosed a faulty sensor, charged me £200 to diagnose and fit it, and the car conked out with the same fault on the way home!
They had to get the manufacturer's expert to look at the car, and he said to check the wiring loom. Just checking the loom fixed the problem, so it was probably just a dodgy connector. If it weren't for him they'd have no idea what was wrong with the car and probably charged me even more to fix it. I didn't even get much of a goodwill payment from the manufacturer either.
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In that case you could probably argue he was incompetent. I had the same problem on my Fiesta MK3.5, it kept cutting out and and ideling like mad. I asked my uncle to look at it and discovered the fault was with the TPS. He then tested the TPS and found it was working perfectly. He then wiggled the wires and sure enough the fault went. I fixed that problem myself by slicing of the faulty cable and crimping a new one to it. I miss cars that simple.
The problem is modern cars are just so complicated mis diagnoses will happen.
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Most factory parts now come in sealed boxes with a hologram across the flap,once opened they are deemed used
Fast forward to a code read an actuator test and live data telling you the map senser is faulty so you order one fit it at a cost £50 and its no different
Wouldnt happen?
Saw it a few months back and the bloke had every gizzmo at his disposal to sort the problem out
How do you throw that one at the customer plus 60 minutes labour?????
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What customers need to be told is its their car and you can only use the tools at your disposal and your knowledge to fix it, but, every car is indeed different and you cannot guarantee at first fix that you will get it right
Do you the customer want me to proceed? or would you prefer to take it elsewhere? is the answer the garage should say to you
At this point the customer usually says its been elsewhere they told me it needs a new ecu at xy pounds but they wont guarantee it will fix the problem
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As im sure ive said before any garage that sucks teeth and mentions ecu hasnt got a clue if they havent performed basic tests you as the customer should take this as a sign to run away
simple common sense i feel
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if you die on the operating table the medical insurance company will still pay the surgeon
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most doctors do not whip organs out just on 'spec'- I hope!
No, they use experience and knowledge , and X rays etc, before operating. I reckon indy gargaes have more experienced and careing staff as they need to keep the business. Main dealers know they will get servicing ( what a rip off) thay will keep them in profits so are not too bothered about losing a customer as their car gets older and needs diagnosing.
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I don't agree that cars are so complicated that this isn't easy any more. IMO it is due to sloppy / inexperienced / greedy / incompetent technicians. I go to a garage that specialises & only works on my make of car & they charge half of what the main dealer charges & do a far better job. Passionate honest reliable people who thrive on word of mouth vs. a big business looking to maximise profits
Most unenlightened folk don't realise you can do this or are too scared to leave the franchised dealer route, and go somewhere worse & more expensive. The sory above about the ECU swapping garage is appalling but I believe it to be true. The trick is to follow 100% recommendation, either via competent friends & family (i.e. not from your dotty old neighbor) or a trusted enthusiast website. Most big brands like Ford, VW, BMW etc have got loyal followings & related forums where you can quickly establish who is hot & who is not in your area.
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In my experience main dealers don't have a clue when it comes to fault finding .........
You've only been to a limited number of main dealers and may have been unlucky in your choice. I've found that the franchised dealers (main or otherwise) I've been to were all competent.
Edited by L'escargot on 12/01/2010 at 07:12
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I imagine there must be times when a car has a number of undetected faults yet only one of them causing a problem eg worn suspension yet only one bush causing a knocking noise. Would a garage be justified in replacing all worn bushes? I suppose if the parts are all faulty then you can,t really complain.
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Do dealers have have fault finding databases which technicians can tap into if they are struggling with a diagnosis, with the opportunity to add to the database if they find a cure for a problem. Pooling of knowledge.
If not why not???
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Because if you have the intelligence to take the car to the appropriate place in the first place, the pool of knowlege should be in the heads of those working on your car.
Most common faults can be diagnosed by model specific online forums anyway, there is nearly always a techie on them who knows whats what for most popular makes.
Its just people are lazy and assume throwing a set of keys at any old mechanic will do the trick and make the problem go away. And then it costs them.
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I was referring to the dealers workshops having the database. Yes there is no substitute for experience but technology moves at a rapid pace and with the best will in the world no one can know everything.
There are times when to one person has an issue which is proving difficult to resolve because they have not come across it before when another person perhaps far away has actually solved the issue and has the answer. May have never been mentioned in the bulletins, service manuals or even in the canteen
Edited by Fullchat on 11/01/2010 at 23:49
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