Almost every car manufacturer has produced a lemon at some stage, with the possible exception of BMW and Porsche.
Here's my A-Z
AMC Pacer & Gremlin
Austin Allegro especially with the idiotic quartic steering wheel
Cadillac Seville Diesel, Cimmaron
Chrysler/Talbot Horizon, Solara
Dacia Denem
Ford Edsel, Pinto, Taunus
FSO Polonez
Pontiac Aztec
Rolls Royce Camargue (even Pininfarina can have an off day)
Volkswagen K70
I'm sure there are many more I can think of, but my post would probably time out
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I cant think of any really bad ones. A lemon to me is something unreliable rather than something ill-concieved. Ive driven some ill-concieved cars and they are sort of lovable for it. Some would say a Reliant Rialto is a lemon, but it got under my skin and I wish I had one now.
So id vote for any top-spec automatic Renault, maybe a V6 Espace.
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The Messerschmidt KR200 was fairly unpleasant to drive.
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BMW Z1 with the 1.6 engine springs to mind and the Porsche 912 and 914 with the watercooled engine in the back I think would be automotive lemons. Both cars were fairly gutless as far as I recall even the most ardent BMW fan admits the 1.6 was a pretty poor performance car.
VW K70 rattles a few braincells as well.
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What an utter load of cobblers cc. You've missed quite a few turds and included some underrated classics.
Utter carp.
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>the Porsche 912 and 914 with the watercooled engine in the back..
I think you'll find that the 912, 914 and 914/6 were air cooled.
They were also pretty successful in filling the entry level slot until the (watercooled) 924 came along. The 914 was Porsche's best selling model while it was in production and the six cylinder variant was a pretty good track car.
I did see one watercooled 914 though - at a Dallas custom car show. It had a Chevy V8 in the back :-(
Kevin...
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912 was a 911 with a Porsche flat-four engine. A real Porsche that might be faster than a 911 on some twisties.
914 and 916 were mid engined 'VW Porsches'. When the OP said he didn't think there had been a Porsche lemon I thought immediately of the rust-prone 914 (which had a VW 411 engine), but I didn't mention it for one simple reason: I like lemons, like any red-blooded car person.
So there.
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Alfa 6
BMW 7 series (2002)
Citroen CX and SM
Dacia Duster and Daf Dafodil
Edsel
Ford Capri (1963)
G-wiz
Hummer H2
Kia Rio (2003)
Lancia Beta
Morris Marina
NSU Prinz 4 and Ro80
Oldsmobile Toronado (1988)
Perodua Kelisa
Renault Avantime
Suzuki Liana
Trident Clipper
Vauxhall Victor FA
Wolseley Hornet
Xiali N3
Zaporozhets 968
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And a massive raspberry to you too frosty.
Seems to me anyone with a long list of crap cars hates cars.
And I don't have much time for anyone who hates cars and bothers to come on a motoring website to let everyone know about it.
Will someone kindly suppress this thread before these carphounds give me a heart attack. I've got issues with it whatever that may mean. I object to it. I report it as grossly offensive.
Edited by Lud on 22/11/2009 at 23:23
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Actually, agree with the G-Wiz.
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For once Lud, I wholehearted agree with you.
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NSU Ro80 - warranty costs due to the rotor tip sealing problems in the rotary wankel engine virually bankrupted NSU and led to the takeover by the VW Group in 1969.
The K70 was NSU designed and put into production by VW as the K70. The advantage this car gave was to provide VW with a newly designed front wheel drive platform that VW so desperately needed.
Citroen CX - not particularly reliable and could be hideously expensive to repair when things went wrong.
Renault Avantime - a sales flop.
BMW 7 series - the 2002 model was the first 7 designed by Chris Bangle, and was the first application of BMW's i-drive. The looks affected sales. No doubt it is well built and reasonably good to drive.
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so its not a lemon - it has now evolved into a nice looking large saloon and looks particularly good when stacked up against Bangle inspired cars from other makers - in fairness its more than reasonable to drive when driven properly. Where's the evidence that affected sales...they made plenty of them and the line was well into profit before it was facelifted.
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I comment on those below as I have direct experience of them...
>>NSU Ro80 - warranty costs due to the rotor tip sealing problems in the rotary wankel engine virually bankrupted NSU and led to the takeover by the VW Group in 1969.
The engine was pioneering and they were unlucky it proved so troublesome. The rest of the car was great in regard to quality, space, ride and driving dynamics. No lemon.
>>The K70 was NSU designed and put into production by VW as the K70. The advantage this car gave was to provide VW with a newly designed front wheel drive platform that VW so desperately needed.
So it was the first FWD watercooled VW.... and showed the way VW was to go as the years rolled on. Far better built than a Ford/Vauxhall of the day. No lemon.
>>Citroen CX - not particularly reliable and could be hideously expensive to repair when things went wrong.
Citroen always took a chance and in the CX produced a car akin to a Motor Show concept vehicle... but you could actually have one. A unique driving experience. No lemon.
>>Wolseley Hornet.
The Mini was and still is a cult car. The Hornet was a Mini for the blue rinse set.... nothing wrong with that. No lemon.
>>Lancia Beta.
Sad about the rust as the revvy twin cam engine, great handling, comfort and brakes made it a better car otherwise than most it competed against. Probably the nearest candidate for a lemon of those I've mentioned but remembering the drive I still can't quite apply the tag.
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>>Lancia Beta. Sad about the rust as the revvy twin cam engine great handling comfort and brakes made it a better car otherwise than most it competed against. Probably the nearest candidate for a lemon of those I've mentioned but remembering the drive I still can't quite apply the tag.
The Lancia Beta was astonishing to drive by the standards of the day. With the possible exception of the Alfasud, there was nothing to touch it for driving dynamics and it had a marvelously wacky interior.
I was so taken by a mate's three year old 2 Litre Twin Cam Twin Carb Beta Saloon in the early eighties I nearly bought it from him. Until he pointed out that the front wings he'd had replaced a year ago had rusted through. As had the engine mounts...
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I remember so much good about the Beta. The most powerful headlamps I'd driven behind to that point, the modern near lime green interior cloth trim, so comfortable seats, interesting facia... even a rechargeable torch that plugged in under the dash.
The engine howled at max revs rather better than the competing Ford/Vauxhalls of the day.
Had an Alfusud too. The rust on those was spectacular. I guess ours was about 5yrs old and on the ride home from buying it heard excess exhaust noise. A quick poke about showed most of the floorpan had come unzipped and there was only carpet between feet and road. Had it all properly repaired and enjoyed a fun few months before selling on to an Italian which seemed appropriate. The handling was truly amazing for the day. Entering a corner at speeds where you knew the Sud was safe would convince a passenger new to the model they were about to die!
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BMW 7 series - the 2002 model was the first 7 designed by Chris Bangle and was the first application of BMW's i-drive. The looks affected sales.
It was the best selling 7 Series of all time.
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We've had threads like this before and they never work very well simply because (praise be, this is a free country) people with different tastes disagree. Yes, I would have a secondhand Focus for the price of a new Perodua, but others wouldn't.
I think all the cars in the above lists would have their defenders (if anyone can think of a totally indefensible one I'll try to come up with a defence).
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Why do I get the feeling that people who create these lists have actually driven few if any of the cars they list?
I remember the the Avantime when it was advertised at the time by Renault, the adverts looked very slick and attractive despite the car not being sold in any numbers.
I've never bought a new car in my life and sometimes wonder if this is the case with others that disparage various makes and models mentioned above.
I've never driven an FSO so can't really comment on their merits or otherwise. I remember them pushing the merits of their five speed gearboxes in their radio adverts in the 80s when many cars were four speed but that's about it. If you've bought or driven most or indeed any of the cars on these lists above then perhaps you have been spectacularly unlucky but I'm not sure. I suspect some posters are repeating predjudices without any personal experience.
If any poster has driven all the the cars below I will listen to them but wonder why they weren't choosing something else at the time.....
AMC Pacer & Gremlin
Austin Allegro especially with the idiotic quartic steering wheel
Cadillac Seville Diesel, Cimmaron
Chrysler/Talbot Horizon, Solara
Dacia Denem
Ford Edsel, Pinto, Taunus
FSO Polonez
Pontiac Aztec
Rolls Royce Camargue (even Pininfarina can have an off day)
Volkswagen K70
Alfa 6
BMW 7 series (2002)
Citroen CX and SM
Dacia Duster and Daf Dafodil
Edsel
Ford Capri (1963)
G-wiz
Hummer H2
Kia Rio (2003)
Lancia Beta
Morris Marina
NSU Prinz 4 and Ro80
Oldsmobile Toronado (1988)
Perodua Kelisa
Renault Avantime
Suzuki Liana
Trident Clipper
Vauxhall Victor FA
Wolseley Hornet
Xiali N3
Zaporozhets 968
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I remember the the Avantime when it was advertised at the time by Renault the adverts looked very slick and attractive despite the car not being sold in any numbers.
The Avantime failed for the same reason all big French cars fail in the UK. Nobody will pay BMW/Audi/Mercedes money for a French badge. How good or bad the car is is almost irrelevant as most people won't even get as far as a test drive. The Avantime looked "different" too, which didn't help.
No big French "executive" car has ever succeeded in this badge-obsessed market. What astounds me is the French keep trying. How many Citroen C6s or Peugeot 607's do you see on the road?
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"The Avantime failed for the same reason all big French cars fail in the UK. Nobody will pay BMW/Audi/Mercedes money for a French badge."
No. As someone in this market I can assure you that people won't pay BMW/Audi/Mercedes money for a car that doesn't have the usually high levels of build 'quality' and reliability that usually comes with those makes - allowing for Mercedes' temporary lapse a while back.
This then has negative impacts on residuals. As someone who has to pay for my car rather than a privileged company car driver, these things matter.
In my opinion the French just can't compete with the Germans in the expensive sector. I rarely buy a car magazine these days but saw Autocar the other day with their end-of-term report on the Laguna Coupe, a car which I have considered. A distinctly lukewarm reception would I think be a fair summary.
The French do the small and medium sectors rather well though. The Renault Clio - excellent and the Megane Coupe - rather tempting.
"The Avantime looked "different" too, which didn't help."
That's a polite way of putting it...
The Allegro wasn't a bad car - it was certainly better than most of the stuff the French were producing at that time. As someone else said, you have to compare it relatively. The only big error was to not have a hatchback. They rode well, handled adequately, were roomy, quite fast with the 1750cc engine and were one of the first 'ordinary' cars to have a five speed 'box. The bodywork in terms of general solidity and resistance to rust was way ahead of any Italian or French car at that time.
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I fully agree with Lud too.
On the other hand, Avant - how about a Belmont 1.3L?
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These lists are IMO meaningless without the reason the poster has for considering them 'lemons'
some of the models listed sold in large numbers, so I can not see how they could be genuine lemons.
here is the definition of 'lemon'
?noun
1. the yellowish, acid fruit of a subtropical citrus tree, Citrus limon.
2. the tree itself.
3. lemon yellow.
4. Informal. a person or thing that proves to be defective, imperfect, or unsatisfactory; dud: His car turned out to be a lemon.
?adjective
5. made of or with lemon.
6. having the colour, taste, or odour of lemon.
I presume the OP was using meaning 4?
The one thing we must consider, is the viewpoint must be from the period the vehicles were available new.
looking back is not a true representation of how the vehicle really was. the mists of time alter the perception - sometimes improving and sometimes reducing the reality.
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I'm nibbling- FWIW, the Allegro was a relatively good car to drive- and yes, I owned one, a 1.5. Went well and was reliable and spacious. Never let me down once.
Others will be along to cite chapter and verse but its all after the fact. Everyone I knew at the time who had one was happy with their choice.
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To me, the problem with these lists is that it doesn't take account of what else was around at the time which could reasonably meet the requirements of the person concerned. After all, things like the FSO were much cheaper than other new cars. And for some people, that was all that mattered.
So the lada Niva (the 4-wheel drive) could be regarded as a lemon, or as the only model available at the price which was half-competent on a farm track.
The Triumph stag could be regarded as a gorgeous piece of styling, or one of the biggest lemons of all time due to some poor engine engineering.
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I had a 1098cc Allegro (S-reg). Had it for three years, was quite OK to drive and was as reliable as others of its ilk. The hydragas suspension gave no problems and a comfortable, though at times, floaty ride. Certainly the bodywork lasted better than the equivalent Marina. However, as far as I'm aware, the Allegro suffered at the design stage from a design by committee approach, and was rushed into production. Hence early series 1's had a tendency for the rear window to pop its seals due to body flex, when the rear of the car was jacked up. The quartic steering wheel was widely seen as a gimmick - demonstrated by the WM Police swapping all the steering wheels on their Allegro panda cars for conventional round items. Shame BL never converted it to a hatchback.
However, when I changed the car in 1987 for a new Micra, the upgrade in quality, etc it was a revelation (design 10 years apart - 1983 launch as opposed to 1973, Japanese-built, lightweight engine, slick gearbox, hatchback).
Edited by Frostynose on 23/11/2009 at 10:21
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Over the years I think I've said this till I'm blue in the face, because these threads are pointless - and I've owned or driven, probably, a greater variety of cars than most. Anyway, I owned a 1300 AllAggro and it was horrible. About the only thing I liked about it was the quartic steering wheel...
Edited by mike hannon on 23/11/2009 at 11:11
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Lemon cars. Either very unreliable or plainly poorly designed for the market they were intended for.
In the case of the latter (which I assume is the OP's idea) there are a number of candidates, but just because a car sold poorly does not make it a lemon. I happen to think that the NSU Ro80 and Citroen CX, XM and SM were superb cars. However the Alfa Six was a bit of a nonsense (six twin choke carbs - I ask you!).
The Allegro was a very poor built car, but was actually a good design, as were many BL cars.
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with the possible exception of BMW and Porsche.
Or indeed any car company whose products you happen to like.
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A Mr J Clarkson will tell you quite vociferously that a BMW X3 is an enormous lemon. I've never driven one but his complete panning of them on Top Gear always springs to mind when I see one, and gives me a little smile.
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I've never driven one but his complete panning of them on Top Gearalways springs to mind
So does his complete panning of anything with a Vauxhall badge on it namely the Vectra C (not the prev B, ive never driven one so I cant comment)
It may not go round corners on a race track very well but I dont take it round a race track it drives on a normal road very well imo, but I would not and i quote JC "There is only one way to describe this car, begind with S ends in T and is not the word Soot"
However Its a lot more better built than the equvilent Laguna (and i have driven one of them) and i love the styling I think its a lot better than the mondeo (at the time, but only the facelifted versions) *** Runs for cover *** - does that make it a Lemon, no becasue i know its going to take me where i want without it falling to bits thats what makes it NOT a lemon
Edited by redviper on 23/11/2009 at 12:52
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Ive had plenty of lemons over the years and it puts you off buying another same type for a while but apart from obvious ones like keyless Laguna diesels and anything oddball and foreign that you know your going to have your pants pulled down on expensive betterment bits from the dealer/factor, i cant really think of any outstanding lemons
did i mention the laguna?
or the clio?
or the peugeot?
interestingly ive blown more money on french stuff than anything but im still a citroen fan to a point....
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Anyone who thinks NSU Ro80, Citroen CX and SM are 'lemons' clearly knows nothing about cars, and their post should be enough for the mods to lock the thread!!
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Anyone who thinks NSU Ro80, Citroen CX and SM are 'lemons' clearly knows nothing about cars, and their post should be enough for the mods to lock the thread!!"
Yes, the RO80 may not have been a commercial success, but look at a 1982 Audi 100 to see it's influence...
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Yes, the RO80 may not have been a commercial success, but look at a 1982 Audi 100 to see it's influence...
Indeed. Or the VW K70, a very good car included in some silly fruit list.
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No not lock the thread - just drum the poster out of the Back Room and into the Inspection Pit.
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redviper. I am interested in your letter. JC is an excellent entertainer on TV. He would leave a terrible vacuum if they took him off. He is not the most humble of humans and is very well aware of his own importance. The way he orrigionally behaved testing the Vauxhall was scandalous. The old Vectra reliably filled most British motorways for years. They couldn't have been all that bad.
I would never take his view on a car seriously. Other well known quieter people should be listened to much more.
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captain chaos, is that from personal experience or merely heresay?
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Why all the harsh comments. Its only a discussion point and potentially more interesting than posts about how do I get from A to B (look at a map?) or claims to be dazzled by DLRs
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And the BMW 7 series - yes a load of rubbish - keep repeating it and prices will dip on what is a finely built and dynamically sound car, so I can [ick one up for peanuts - clearly you've never owned or driven one.
Edited by Pugugly on 23/11/2009 at 17:38
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Friend of mine has recently aquired a 750 for toffee money. He doesn't do a huge mileage so is not bothered about mpg and he owns a car repair garage so he's not bothered about maintainance either. S'luvly....I might hate him a bit.....
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"Citroen CX and SM "
Two of my most lusted after cars!
Incidentally, the C6 and new C5 are two of the biggest lemons around today and I'm sure you will all agree.
PS Wife is looking for a replacement for her aged Xantia - any cheap C6 or C5s out there?
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Time Magazine's 50 worst cars:
Full List
1899-1939
1899 Horsey Horseless
1909 Ford Model T
1911 Overland OctoAuto
1913 Scripps-Booth Bi-Autogo
1920 Briggs and Stratton Flyer
1933 Fuller Dymaxion
1934 Chrysler/Desoto Airflow
1940-1959
1949 Crosley Hotshot
1956 Renault Dauphine
1957 King Midget Model III
1957 Waterman Aerobile
1958 Ford Edsel
1958 Lotus Elite
1958 MGA Twin Cam
1958 Zunndapp Janus
1960-1974
1961 Amphicar
1961 Corvair
1966 Peel Trident
1970 AMC Gremlin
1970 Triumph Stag
1971 Chrysler Imperial LeBaron Two-Door Hardtop
1971 Ford Pinto
1974 Jaguar XK-E V12 Series III
1975-1989
1975 Bricklin SV1
1975 Morgan Plus 8 Propane
1975 Triumph TR7
1975 Trabant
1976 Aston Martin Lagonda
1976 Chevy Chevette
1978 AMC Pacer
1980 Corvette 305 "California"
1980 Ferrari Mondial 8
1981 Cadillac Fleetwood V-8-6-4
1981 De Lorean DMC-12
1982 Cadillac Cimarron
1982 Camaro Iron Duke
1984 Maserati Biturbo
1985 Mosler Consulier GTP
1985 Yugo GV
1986 Lamborghini LM002
1990-Present
1995 Ford Explorer
1997 GM EV1
1997 Plymouth Prowler
1998 Fiat Multipla
2000 Ford Excursion
2001 Jaguar X-Type
2001 Pontiac Aztek
2002 BMW 7-series
2003 Hummer H2
2004 Chevy SSR
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I doff my cap to that well known mooring magazine's opinion. What a load of rubbish. (with certain exceptions).
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So what makes the 7 series a lemon ?? I'm really dying to know.
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Calling the Model T a lemon misses is the point completely :(
The biggest true lemons are probably the Yugo (any), Lada Samara, All FSOs and the polish market FIAT 127 with something like a 500cc engine.
The Lada Samara was a lemon because it was pointless, the cheaper Riva was actually a better car.
The 1990 Ford Escort/Orion has to be a big lemon.
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...The Lada Samara was a lemon because it was pointless...
I rather liked my Samara - comfy three-door hatchback with a bit of room, but not too big.
I also quite like lemon - a slice in a G&T.
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I Assume you managed to find one of the few in 50,000 or so imported into the UK that worked :).
I must admit the Samera with that Ftyte body kit could look quite nice but they cost over £8000 and had a 1.5 litre engine.
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Nice, revvy ohc engine.
Wasn't it an old Fiat design?
I quite liked the straight-legged driving position and it had a good heater.
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Nope the Samera was completly their own design. I don't think it had any FIAT parts. The SOHC engine had its chambers designed by Porche and that led to it being marketed as designed by Porsche (just like SEAT did with the MK1 Ibiza). The Riva was a FIAT design.
There were probably some good reliable Sameras but the build quality was so patchy the chances were just random. If you loved your Ladas and had £8k to spend you could have got one of these
www.lada-owners-club.co.uk/History_Pictures/pic17....g
Edited by Rattle on 23/11/2009 at 20:44
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so what do you call a lemon?
Someone put a stag on the list? woudl I put one in my garage if i had the space? you bet your boots - trully glorious looking. It would be parked next to the Lancia Beta in my garage. But what would be sitting outside my garage, on the drive, so I could have a smile of satisfaction, a sigh of admiration of form and proportion. A Renault Aventime
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Well, I've had only a couple of lemons, quite a lot of peaches and an occasional honey.....automotively speaking of course.......
Edit - almost forgot, I did have one that was a bit of a pudding and another which was nuts.
Edited by Humph Backbridge on 23/11/2009 at 21:29
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But have you had a Cherry?
I know you have had a pear - see other thread!
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But have you had a Cherry?
No, but I have had some which were a lot of bread but then some which were not a lot of dough. I admit to having overcooked some of them and almost all of them have been in a jam at some time. Got into a pickle with one or two and have occasionally made some cheesy modifications. Been fortunate enough never to buy a fishy one but some of them had to be kept on the boil to give of their best. I've fried the electrics on one and found that extra oil suited others. Never tried chinese or indian but have enjoyed a few italians.
I could probably go on all day but I suspect that might make the mods eggy.......
Think I'll do some work now......
Edited by Humph Backbridge on 24/11/2009 at 09:23
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sigh of admiration of form and proportion. A Renault Aventime
Heh heh you young fruit lover you...
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"On the other hand, Avant - how about a Belmont 1.3L?"
Nearly got me there, Ash - but....
It was no worse than the equivalent Astra, which sold well.
It depreciated like there was no tomorrow so made a cheap used buy.
It had a big boot which some people prefer for security.
Daewoo thought it was such a wonderful design that they cloned it (Nexia I think).
That's as much as I can think of.
The TIME list condemns itself out of hand by including the Ford Model T - one of the most successful cars ever made, and one of not many sensible cars to come out of the USA.
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Sorry Avant, can't agree - it was FAR worse than the equivalent Astra and depreciated for a very good reason The extra weight of that boot behind the back wheels ruined the handling and made the car totally gutless, and that was with an empty boot.
I bought mine as a result of driving a friend's Astra and couldn't believe the difference between the cars - sold it as quickly as I could and ended up with an Orion which was a far better car.
I think when Daewoo built the Nexia it was in Astra form only (I stand to be corrected though).
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Rover 216 Vaden Plas. The pocket limousine. Pocket piece of crap more like.
It had so many faults it would be quicker to name what was right with the car than what was wrong but my three favourites.
1. it over heated if you even so much as looked at it
2. the front brake pads were not pinioned they floated in a casing and when about half worn shot out the back of the car when you hit the pedal
3. despite being replaced numerous times the windshield could never be sealed properly as the frame was slightly twisted in a very odd fashion, as such leaked the whole time I owned the car.
Also a quick word on the Avantime. Flew in to Luxembourg airport once and the whole of the Hertz car park was filled with white Avantimes. Apparently when they didn't sell retail Renault sold them all off to Hertz for pennies.
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When I was small we had an Allegro 1300. Bright yellow estate car (with a round steering wheel). It was a fun piece of kit. Cost £4,000 iirc 1978
OK it drank oil and therfore had a new engine after 6,000 miles, but after that it was OK. Only other thing that went wrong, to my recollection, was that the boot sprang open unexpectedly once.
I suppose my father swapped it after about 40-45,000 miles, but people did in those days. All cars were the same...
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Also a quick word on the Avantime. Flew in to Luxembourg airport once and the whole of the Hertz car park was filled with white Avantimes. Apparently when they didn't sell retail Renault sold them all off to Hertz for pennies.
Not suprised, no-one would want a white one. Candy apple red or metalic blue were the colours.
They are very much sought after now and canny peoploe are stashing them away.
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...Rover 216 Vaden Plas. The pocket limousine. Pocket piece of crap more like...
Nice cars, those, light Japanese-style drive and better kitted out than the Escort.
Overheating? - the one we had didn't.
Then, we did do complicated things such as keep the anti-corrosion/freeze up to strength all year round.
And, I know this is going a bit too far, we had it serviced as per the manufacturer's schedule.
And don't get me started on Triumph Stags, the biggest problem with those was the bloke sat behind the wheel.
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I always thought that the word "crap" was banned, or at least triggered the swear filter, or the wrath of the moderators, but it appears three times in this thread before my use of it in this message.
Has there been a change in policy, or is it OK to use it in conjuction with the word "lemon"?
My vote goes to the Metro, rotten suspension and over-complicated front disc brakes.
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and over-complicated front disc brakes.
>
>>>> i seem to remember they had at least two pot calipers (might have been 4) and were superb
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bell boy
Yes the Metro had 4 pot callipers in two independent circuits, sounds good, but over time the damn things corroded solid and cost circa £500 to replace.
Edited by Spospe on 09/12/2009 at 12:30
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bell boy Yes the Metro had 4 pot calipers in two independent circuits sounds good but over time the damn things corroded solid and cost circa £500 to replace.
>>right..
but i have a saying
use it or lose it :-)
can you not recondition yourself? i did a punto by accident the other month when i popped a piston out as i was pad fitting :-(
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Has there been a change in policy
Not that I'm aware of, and I *don't* think it was ever in the swear filter either. Some people however substitute it for the word "carp" instead though - mainly the long term members. DD.
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My boss has an Avantime, tthe V6 one and we get at least two people a week asking if he'll sell it.
It's a bit odd looking, but a lovely car.
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My boss has an Avantime tthe V6 one and we get at least two people a week asking if he'll sell it. It's a bit odd looking but a lovely car.
There's one which parks near our office sometimes, and if happen to be walking that way, and it happens to be there, I will sometimes stop to admire it. I am not the only one either. I personally think it's beautiful, inside and out.
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Also a quick word on the Avantime. Flew in to Luxembourg airport once and the whole of the Hertz car park was filled with white Avantimes. Apparently when they didn't sell retail Renault sold them all off to Hertz for pennies.
It was Matra that went bust - Matra made the cars (they made original plastic Espaces as well) and put Renault badges on them. Hence the car park @ Hertz being a bit on the full side.
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