Whilst I would be the last to condone tailgating, I've noticed an increasing number of car drivers leaving an ocean-wide gap to the car in front. Okay, maybe not Atlantic-sized, but a good five seconds or so at 60mph.
Sounds laudable, but in busy, fast-moving A-road traffic it creates a quandary for drivers emerging from side roads. The gap they leave seems just short of what is a comfortable pull-out - and I've seen quite a few 'interesting' moments recently at the same junction.
It's not that they are just 'exercising caution' at junctions, as they then maintain this gap on clear stretches, too.
Any ideas why?
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If a car is moving at 60 mph on a single carriageway the following driver would have to exceed the speed limit to close the gap. While a lot of drivers might choose to catch up with the car in front, if it's travelling at the legal limit, there's no reason why any following driver should be expected to catch up with it.
Edited by Sofa Spud on 23/10/2009 at 17:49
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Quite true, Spud, but I've noticed this behaviour in slower-moving stuff, too.
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Ever heard of anti-traffic?
tinyurl.com/37vhqv
I'm not convinced it can really work, especially if large numbers of people do it, but it may be what you're witnessing.
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I watched the video. I'll try that next time I'm on the M3 - stay in lane 2 at 65 mph for 40 miles!!! !!! !!!. I'll let you know how I get on!
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To maintain a reasonably constant speed, which also improves economy a lot.
It irons out the fluctuations in speed caused by people who tailgate mindlessly, and whose constant dabbing on the brakes exaggerates speed variations as it ripples down the line of traffic. I have a 10 mile A road stretch every morning at 45-55mph, with no point to overtaking, and I probably maintain about 150m gap - that's your 6 seconds.
You're right about the junctions though - because it's a continual flow, they often join in front of me, but I tend to be ready and ease off in good time if they look like coming out.
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I try and leave a biggish gap on the commute into and out of town for exactly the reasons stated.
However it's messed up by there being a set of traffic lights on the single carriageway main road that detect a gap in the traffic. So you have to remember to close up some way before the lights otherwise you'll get stopped. Make a continous stream and they stay on green.
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Valid up to point, Manatee - but with good observation and anticipation, it's possible to do that with less than six seconds' gap.
Taken to excess I think it's rather selfish behaviour.
Edited by OldSock on 23/10/2009 at 18:04
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Take a look at the link I posted OldSock. It takes a while to read it all through and for it to sink in. If that guy is right, far from being selfish, leaving large gaps is selfless behaviour that benefits all of us.
Plus it's a good idea to leave a very large gap if, for instance, you're being tailgated etc.
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Valid up to point Manatee - but with good observation and anticipation it's possible to do that with less than six seconds' gap.
I checked myself on the way home - I'm actually leaving about four seconds. Like Bill I also habitually close up to 'manage' a set of lights.
Taken to excess I think it's rather selfish behaviour.
Don't see why, even if it was 6 seconds - I'm travelling at the speed of the flock, and it allows people to overtake, and others to join the road. Do you mean I'd be delaying you by 6 seconds?
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Taken to excess I think it's rather selfish behaviour.
Done properly its far from selfish, in fact its a rather a good deed for other road users as it helps smooth the flow and stop ripples in the traffic. I've noticed more people driving in this way - good stuff I say. In fact I've noticed lately that driving standards are improving, I havn't seen a BMW driving with its front fogs on (when there's no fog) in months.
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>>I've noticed lately that driving standards are improving I havn't seen a BMW driving withits front fogs on (when there's no fog) in months.
>>
You must really live on the moon, moonshine. :-)
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a good five seconds or so at 60mph.
The stopping distance & time increases greatly on roads which are not clean and dry.
Sounds laudable but in busy fast-moving A-road traffic it creates a quandary for drivers emerging from side roads.
It shouldn't. A 5-second gap is not enough to join a road with 60MPH traffic from a standing start, unless you've got a *very* "quick" car.
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It shouldn't. A 5-second gap is not enough to join a road with 60MPH traffic from a standing start unless you've got a *very* "quick" car.
Maybe it shouldn't, but many do. If the gap was smaller (but still adequate), they wouldn't be tempted quite so readily.
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I see this a lot on a long straight very busy A road.
I think it can be dangerous as on the one road joinng it you see dangerous behaviour. They try to jump infront of the big gap and usually cause massive braking in the ones behind. If youre not awake then there will be and has been rear end bumps.
I prefer to pass them if possible. It doesnt make me any faster but I think its is bad driving- showing a lack of consideration for other users.
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Are you saying the gap ought to be longer, to allow emerging traffic to join, or shorter, to prevent traffic joining?
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Are you saying the gap ought to be longer to allow emerging traffic to join or shorter to prevent traffic joining?
I'd prefer the gaps to be smaller to prevent joining. Flow is then usually in 'bunches' - with safer joining gaps between them.
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Are you saying the gap ought to be longer to allow emerging traffic to join or shorter to prevent traffic joining?
:) Had to quote that, it did make me grin.
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I prefer to pass them if possible. It doesnt make me any faster but I think its is bad driving- showing a lack of consideration for other users.
LOL! I've heard everything now. Leaving a large gap "shows a lack of consideration for other users." Is that really what you meant?
Priceless.
Surely if everybody left a large gap, they'd be no need to jump out into streams of fast moving traffic. So the problem would appear to be that there isn't enough large gaps, so people pull out dangerously on the slightest gap that appears because they know that's the only chance they'll get?
So the real culprits are people who a) don't leave any gap and b) the people pulling out who need to be more patient
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I'm with you on this one oilburner:)
Pat
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I often leave 4-5 seconds in front of me if I see that the person behind me (and the person behind them) aren't leaving reasonable gaps (ie. quite regularly).
I especially do when when I'm towing.
Edited by Marlot on 23/10/2009 at 19:30
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This is fascinating. I'm beginning to understand the cracked logic of tailgating, never been able to figure it out before!
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Larger gaps are good
They create safer stopping distances
They allow safe overtaking
They lead to safe merging
They create safe de-merging
They increase visibility of hazards
What's the problem ?
Edited by Humph Backbridge on 23/10/2009 at 19:40
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Larger gaps are good They create safer stopping distances They allow safe overtaking They lead to safe merging They create safe de-merging They increase visibility of hazards What's the problem ?
Humph, very nicely put and spot on.
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also less stone damage to the front of your shiny new car
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What's the problem ?
No problem at all in leaving a gap large enough to stop safely within the distance you can see to be clear, Humph.
Such gaps should naturally be adapted according to road, vehicle (and driver!) conditions.
I do believe, however, that in busy traffic there is a 'grey' area where the following distance is just that bit too much. It's easier to 'feel' than describe - if that makes any sense.
Edited by OldSock on 23/10/2009 at 20:20
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in busy traffic there is a 'grey' area where the following distance is just that bit too much
How on earth can it be too much?
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Perhaps if everyone left a decent gap the "crash for cash" scrotes would have to find a new scam.
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>>How on earth can it be too much?
There's a gap that's just long enough for people to try things in front of you, pulling out, pedestrians trying to cross, etc, etc. Oddly, it's safer not to let people think they have an opportunity.
I'm not for a second suggesting that you should tailgate, perish the thought!, but, by following at a smart distance, you can stop hazards from developing in front of you, wheras leaving a larger gap positively invites them.
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I do a 72 mile loop 1 way every morning, and the reverse every afternoon (well, except sunday) so i could do it in my sleep almost. (and not IN reverse)
I know every filter lane and every traffic light sequence, as does any other regular, so why do some think they have the god given right to sneak up the wrong lane and cut in at the last gasp, to pass me at traffic lights and islands, and to come down the wrong lane on the 1 motorway exit ramp and cut across the front of me at the last minute to get ahead of the queue?
My Tourneo looks big, they assume its slow.....it isnt that slow, my reactions are good (ex-white van man) and a rolling transit can easily outdrag a static saloon away from the lights
Country lanes are my bugbear, some 4x4 owners are afraid of hedges, and assume ill give way, well one day i just may not...
Edited by mondeo1306 on 23/10/2009 at 22:49
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and i cant stop laughing about the woman in the large merc saloon who tried to get a 15ft car into the 3ft gap when she assumed id back off when she tried coming round me on the lights one day
she was thumping the horn and flashing her lights
well she was only level with me!
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Thanks, N_C - but I think we're in a minority here!!
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wheras leaving a larger gap positively invites them.
What can I say? I don't have any trouble...not with those in front anyway, probably because maintaining a longer gap needs attention.
Once every couple of weeks or so I pick up a serious tailgater, as I'm sure we all do. The funny thing is they rarely want to pass - they are just dozy.
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well it's obvious really...
it saves you from slowing down, speeding up and crashing into the motor in front who is only a dog's hair's distance from your bonnet.
Simples.
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I know what you're getting at OS and NC but I really do think it's also about attitude. I don't really mind if someone "steals" the spare ten 10 yards or so of road in front of me either by crossing it or merging in or using the gap I've left to join from a junction. If I let that happen say 20 times in a 200 mile journey that means I arrive 200 yards "later". No biggie and much less stress than trying for the same 200 miles to protect my "personal" road space.
Anyway, an interesting discussion, beats wiper blades and mats !
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>>I don't really mind if someone "steals" the spare ten 10 yards or so
No, neither do I. For me, keeping a smart gap is a way of driving more safely, not in any way a peevish attempt to prevent the progress of others.
If however someone forces me to brake or steer to avoid them after I've "invited" them to do so by keeping a sloppy gap, I'm really partially to blame.
I think that keeping a larger gap is quite dangerous, and simply gives you more hazards to deal with - a really long gap would be OK, because all the hazards would be long gone before you got there.
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Oldsock says in his OP that he sees people leaving gaps of 6 seconds. I wonder whether he has actually timed the gap or it is his gut feeling. If the latter, than it is quite likely that he has overestimated the time (most people asked to estimate how many seconds have passed usually vastly overestimate the time).
The other point to note is that in studies on Mways, it has been shown time and again that the gap people leave to the vehicle in front is often much less than the "two-second" rule stipulates.
example of one study:
www.iam.org.uk/pressroom/newsarchive/nr0613.htm
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jbif,
I wasn't sure in my opening post whether or not to quantify the gap - either in terms of distance or time - so I deliberately left it a bit vague as "a good five seconds or so". I don't habitually drive with a stopwatch at the ready, but I take your point.
Maintaining the optimum following distance takes a great deal of discipline, and must constantly be re-assessed throughout the journey. Having that "two second" rule componds the problem by suggesting that so long as this is adhered to, God will be in His heaven etc. Driving is rarely all 'black and white'.
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I think the optimum following distance is in the eye of the beholder.
It's something I decide according to road conditions, the vehicle I'm driving, the vehicles reactions and my own reactions at the time.
If I'm comfortable with the distance I've chosen then I'm happy to deal with the outcome of those actions.
To cricise another drivers assessment of 'his' situation would be unfair.
Pat
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I'm a big fan of the two second rule.
If I time my gap to the length of time it takes me to say: ''One thousand and one, one thousand and two, " it results in what I think is about the right distance behind the car in front.
I agree too big a gap can be dangerous.
To fill it, the car behind might overtake - or undertake on a dual carriageway.
There wouldn't be too much wrong with that if the manoeuvre was not motivated by impatience, which it usually is.
On a positive note, there are far more people who leave a reasonable gap behind me than those who tailgate.
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>>To fill it, the car behind might overtake
I can't say I've noticed this happening much. Following at a comfortable distance is not the same as 'not making progress'. In fact it often allows me to take bends without losing as much speed as the crocodile ahead and the followers often recede.
>>- or undertake on a dual carriageway.
Have you been on the M1 recently? You'd have to leave a gap shorter than their car to stop some people doing this.
To those who think a 4 second gap is too long, try it. Be prepared to pay full attention to your driving though.
I'm talking about rural A/B roads here, with continual traffic flow that makes overtaking pointless, not roads where you can set your own speed unhampered and where I will rarely follow at 10-15mph under the (usually unnecessarily low) speed limit.
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In reply to OldSock:I don't habitually drive with a stopwatch >>
You don't need a stopwatch, just estimate the time using the ''One thousand and one, one thousand and two, etc. " trick to count the seconds.
Maintaining the optimum following distance takes a great deal of discipline .. >>
I beg to disagree. I find it easy and is almost done without a concious effort on my part.
Having that "two second" rule componds the problem by suggesting that so long as this is adhered to, ... >>
If you are finding that the 2 second "rule" leaves too much space, no wonder you feel that the 5 second gap is far too much (assuming you have estimated the 5 or 6 seconds fairly accurately in the first place, and which I said earlier I doubt to the case).
Driving is rarely all 'black and white'. >>
I do not accept the word "rarely", but accept "not always" as a good substitution for it. The 2 second "rule" is not a rule but good guidance to help you form good habits. Good habits are easy to form and they will enable you to devote more time to coping with situations where conditions require you to act outside the "black and white" guidelines.
Drive safely. Keep your distance. The "chevron" markings on some M-ways are 40m apart. The Highway Code stopping distance at 70mph is quoted at 96 metres (21m thinking plus 75m braking).
"Drivers Unable to Judge Braking Distances Says Survey":
www.prnewswire.co.uk/cgi/news/release?id=205514
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In reply to jbif:
I beg to disagree. I find it easy and is almost done without a concious (sic) effort on my part.
Well, it would seem that a large proportion of drivers do lack the required discipline, judging by the inadequate gaps left in many traffic conditions. Oh, and I said it takes a great deal of discipline, not effort - you seem confused by these words.
If you are finding that the 2 second "rule" leaves too much space no wonder you feel that the 5 second gap is far too much
With respect (as they say), where exactly did I say it leaves too much space? On the contrary, I was implying that blindly following this 'rule' even in adverse conditions is positively dangerous.
Drive safely. Keep your distance.
Thanks for the advice - maybe the next thirty years will also prove accident- and points-free.
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Having that "two second" rule componds [sic] the problem by suggesting >>
And [sic] to you too!
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