>and get a micrometer..
You can buy a 6" plastic vernier caliper for less than a fiver.
More useful than a micrometer.
Kevin...
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SQ again!
More useful than a micrometer.
I beg to disagree... a micrometer can measure the most worn area, a vernier caliper can only measure the thickest point... plus a micrometer is a lot more accurate (as long as you know how to read it!)
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 25/09/2009 at 02:12
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>I beg to disagree... a micrometer can measure the most worn area,
Depends on the worn area and the dia. of the micrometer legs. We're not talking about +/- a micron here.
Tilt a micrometer a few degrees each way and the reading will change. You can tilt a vernier to read between ridges.
A cheap vernier is accurate to tenths of a mm, you can measure up to 6", and it will measure outer and internal.
>plus a micrometer is a lot more accurate (as long as you know how to read it!)
I've calibrated micrometers traceable to National standards.
Kevin...
Edited by Kevin on 25/09/2009 at 01:29
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I beg to disagree... a micrometer can measure the most worn area a vernier caliper can only measure the thickest point... plus a micrometer is a lot more accurate (as long as you know how to read it!)
Agreed. There will invariably be an unworn and probably rusty 'lip' on the disc which the caliper will measure. You need to get past that to the worn area. I had a similar problem when a shyster garage operation told me I needed new discs, telephoning me and using the expression 'work required' (which put my back up straight away). I asked them what the manufacturer's permitted wear was and what my discs were and they couldn't answer either question. Those discs lasted another 3 years.
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There's no need for very exact measurement for this purpose. Nearest mm or half mm will do. If the disc is that close to too thin the garage may have a point, anyway from its point of view. After all the next service may be another year away.
Telling a punter the pads are down to metal and have damaged the disc, when it is far from true, is extracting it so grossly that prison is the only just punishment.
Of course the world is full of pathetic punters just begging to have this done to them. It's built into the logic of the privately owned automobile. Perhaps the fathers of the industry realised this would happen and worked to accentuate it. But I don't think so. I think it just happened.
Edited by Lud on 25/09/2009 at 01:42
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Of course the world is full of pathetic punters just begging to have this done to them. It's built into the logic of the privately owned automobile. Perhaps the fathers of the industry realised this would happen and worked to accentuate it. But I don't think so. I think it just happened.
I used to work with a fellow vehicle examiner who had a copy of the original Ford Model T owner's manual. That was an education. It covered absolutely every aspect of the vehicle, no secrecy about anything, more comprehensive than many so-called modern Workshop Manuals. Henry Ford certainly didn't start that trend. It's not just cars, though, is it? Look at trying to get manuals for a washing machine or whatever. They're all at it.
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NowWheels, Can I come too?
Edited by corblimeyguvnar on 25/09/2009 at 13:05
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If you're in West Yorkshire on monday morning and can demonstrate credentials as a mechanic, you'll be a very welcome ally!
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If you're in West Yorkshire on monday morning and can demonstrate credentials as a mechanic you'll be a very welcome ally!
Dam it, bit far for me
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Update: I talked on the phone today to the service manager about doing an assessment on monday. He's wriggling a bit: now claiming that front pads are 70% worn rather than that they are worn out, and claiming that the problem with the rear brakes is corrosion on the outer surface of the discs rather than that they are scored by completely worn-out brakepads.
The change of story rather confirms my suspicions of something awry. When I reminded him that I would take the matter further if I wasn't satisfied that the inspection confirmed what I had already been told, he said that in that situation he'd be very concerned about that conduct of the technician who'd done the service.
So there we have their exit route: if the scam is rumbled, just sacrifice the most junior person. Neither novel novel nor surprising, and rather difficult to challenge. It'll be interesting to see how this actually goes.
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So there we have their exit route:
Similar thing happened to us after buying a used Cav from a local (non-Vauxhall) garage. The garage allegedly did an MoT before we picked it up, but we noticed a few things wrong with it (can't remember what, but I'm no mechanic) and as a result forked out £150 for an AA inspection.
Inspection revealed a number of what should of been MoT failures. Took it back to garage - they gave us £150 to cover the inspection, problems were fixed and technician was sacked (or so we were told).
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when i were nowt but a lad i had a job in a very big shop and it was decreed that i was the fall guy for the day
customer came in with a complaint,i was blamed by associates,manager came down and i was sacked on the spot, i protested my innocence,customer calmed down and said i shouldnt lose my job but i was told to go forthwith,i had to walk round the block till the customer had gone so i could take my place behind the counter again to do the same routine,how we used to laugh in whitelocks in briggate after we shut shop
happy days
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Re: Bell Boy's comments, taken with the spirit intended, but it only goes to prove what I said before:
"Even if NW succeeds in getting the dealer to admit wrong and make amends, does anyone seriously think it will stop them from trying again with someone else? "
IMHO, thinking otherwise is rather naive. Maybe NowWheels can show me to be a silly old cynic and get something meaningful done about this...maybe not...
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get something meaningful done about this...maybe not...
Not, in all probability.
Thirty-six years ago in Trenton, New Jersey, I was appalled to see the fitters in a national exhaust chain, Midas Muffler, cutting holes in brand new exhaust parts to prevent them being re-used, having dropped the whole system from a car whose exhaust had recently been partly repaired. This was very plainly company policy, and there was a pile of virtually new boxes and pipes that had been destroyed in that way behind the workshop.
The unthinking capitalist logic of more turnover, more waste, more profit, internalised by wage slaves against their own best interests, is what has led to the sort of thing that NW would like to stop. But it's unrealistic to expect workers to be more moral than their bosses. Or for anyone to be anything but lumpish and stupid when confronted. They are bang to rights after all, but can't admit it. They are all liars, or nearly all. It's pathetic, and sad, and wall to wall.
You might find a garage principal who loathes that sort of thing and won't allow it. But most are going to try not to think about it too much because it earns them a bit more.
Greed greed greed as bell boy might say.
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That sums it up very well Lud. No one person can undo this, or even hope to derail it slightly, it's ingrained into our very culture, sadly.
"Accept the things you can't change", clichéd but still worthy advice.
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Greed greed greed as bell boy might say.
I'm not suggesting by the way that NW just meekly takes it. I think a forthright, even rude response is justified in view of the shameless porkies told.
But as I said, what fun is it watching the agonised squirming of a cockchafer grub exposed to the light and injured? It's just disgusting. The grub dies or survives, but there are lots more.
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... So there we have their exit route: if the scam is rumbled, just sacrifice the most junior person. .. >>
It is possible that the mechanic is on a bonus incentive system, whereby he gets a cut of the extra dosh for work "found to be necessary". But it may be based on an offer he cannot refuse - i.e. if he fails to find enough work, he gets the sack but he also gets the sack if he gets found out. On the other hand, it may be something cooked up between the service manager and parts department without the knowledge of the owner of the franchise. Very much like Piquet, Symonds and Briatore of Renault F1.
Edited by jbif on 25/09/2009 at 16:14
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NowWheels, what do you hope to gain personally by pursuing this matter? After all, so far you've lost nothing.
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He has nothing to gain financially but a lot to gain morally. Garages like this should be brought to book, or the very least be made painfully aware that some punters won't stand for their crooked practices.
Sock it to 'em, NW!
(incidentally, like most posters here, I don't think I'm easily duped but when I think back I have probably been done in the past when I was a fresh-faced youth).
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.......... but a lot to gain morally.
Two of my favourite maxims are "Discretion is the better part of valour" and "Make sure you don't cut your nose off to spite your face".
Edited by L'escargot on 25/09/2009 at 19:53
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I would move on. life's too short.
there is a Mercedes owner suing MB - yes Mercedes Benz UK - for some damage to his car. Long and involved. taken 6 years and £5k and he may now have a case.
( Very wealthy and retired iirc: taken up most of his life from the sound of it)
Edited by madf on 25/09/2009 at 20:07
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They don`t like it up `em....
cough
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snaily - yes, two great maxims but I'm not sure how they apply in this case.
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... two great maxims but I'm not sure how they apply in this case....
They don't.
...discretion is better part... Used as an excuse for backing down.
Should NowWheels be concerned the dealer will send the workshop chargehand round to fill her in? I don't think so.
...cut off nose... Don't fall out in case you need the other party in future.
Will NowWheels ever want to use this dealer again?
I can't speak for her, but I'll hazard a guess she will not be taking her custom there in the future under any circumstances.
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He has nothing to gain financially but a lot to gain morally. >>
Pat L : NW is a she !
L'escargot: two great maxims which have their rightful place, but not in this case. Try to remember appeasement and Neville Chamberlain.
Edited by jbif on 25/09/2009 at 21:20
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>>Pat L : NW is a she !
Oops! Sorry NW.
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My main dealer passed my 6 year old Charade for its MOT without a single advisory, which given that it is at an age where there is any number of plausible reasons for it to have failed, gives me confidence in their honesty.
I do always check my car thoroughly and anything that it fails on or Im told needs replacing, I always ask to be shown - any resistance is to my mind suspicious at the very least. I am somewhat cautious about who I use for work on my cars though, so perhaps it has paid off, so far anyhow.
Having worked the other side of the counter in a service department, I would say you have come across a common practice and unfortunatly you may well do so again. Take heart though that there are many worse cases of downright fraudulent behaviour being commited by the motor trade everyday. The worst bills I ever had to pass on were those to obviously not very wealthy old ladies who had total trust in what they were told - they are at the mercy of the guys on the service desk but it was rare that mercy was ever shown to them.
Anyone who thinks its remotely amusing to fleece people this way is as bad as the dishonest people who give the trade such a bad name.
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To the OP...You have lost nothing but you have learned a valuable lesson. If you have the time and motivation to take this further fair play to you but what are you expecting at the end of it, is it worth all the effort just to hear some faceless person say sorry, you wont be going back there so why bother? If you are hellbent on revenge you have a better chance if you make a model doll of your service manager from wax, do a bit of chanting and stick pins in it.
Dont make the mistake of thinking they are going to "squirm" this is nothing new, it happens everyday in dealerships all over the country, no service manager looses sleep over this sort of thing, its water off a ducks back. They will say the same thing again tomorrow to the next candidate, and again the day after etc etc etc. They are making a recomendation that you are under no obligation to accept, British Gas did the same thing to me today when they sent me a flyer telling me my central heating could fail and cost £ks to repair so where do you draw the line?
Can I ask you a question though?......... Lets assume hypotheticaly, they said the brakes were perfectly servicable and in say 2-3 months time a problem developed. How would you react?
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>>British Gas did the same thing to me today when they sent me a flyer telling me my central heating could fail and cost £ks to repair so where do you draw the line?
BUT the difference is NW's car was serviced/inspected and (if we believe her side of the story, and I do) she was told that items that were perfectly serviceable needed replacing.
I really don't understand the 'accept it and move on' attitude of some forum members, especially as those same people recognise this practice as widespread. Surely, if we have evidence, as NW does, we need to take a stance rather than roll over!
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Its attempted fraud. A criminal offence. If NW has evidence, and I were in her shoes, I'd pass the papers to TS.
Edited by nortones2 on 25/09/2009 at 23:28
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Surely if we have evidenceas NW does we need to take a stance rather than roll over!
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I agree PL, but so far NW doesn't have any evidence except for her independent's opinion, not as i have any bones to pick with him (presumably), but he could have a vested interest in aquiring NW's future repair work to her fleet of ecolgically friendly hilux pick ups..;) i'm sure he's being totally honest mnd you, but the dealer's tech's opinion is equally valid (and comission wise equally pliable).
It remains to be seen just how bad NW's brake discs and pads are, and even then all will be subject to the assessors own values.
My rear discs were looking a bit shabby and scored on the ageing MB, had lots of meat on them still, little wear in fact and probably half the pad thickness remaining, but at approx £80 or less for a set of discs and pads i changed them anyway...thats me, others would have left them till they were completely worn out, this whole subject doesn't have any hard and fast rules.
Also i didn't think they were worn that badly but my respected and trusted MB indy changed the front pads at service/mot time, in practice i noticed just how much improved the brakes were when i got the car back before i realised he'd done the pads, it's all subject to trust and opinion..i trust him, he would rather eat tyres than cheat a customer (or anyone else).
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I really don't understand the 'accept it and move on' attitude of some forum members, especially as those same people recognise this practice as widespread.
I've never come across it in 44 years of having my cars serviced at a variety of franchised dealers in a variety of towns/cities, so it can't be that widespread.
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As previously said
The worst I had was a Fiat main dealer trying to quote the full stripdown (cambelt off) price for a new waterpump - when fitted along with a new cambelt. When of course the pump is just sitting there with the belt off.
I rang them back and challenged that - pointing out in technical detail that the pump would be sitting there exposed with the belt off. The reply " It`s because we have to drain the radiator" (£150 labour to fit a waterpump - already exposed by the cambelt job)
Later I caught them on a quote for a new door checkstrap (midwinter not wanting to work on the drive) I got a quote for around 1.5 hours labour - instantly reduced on me questioning it.
Then discovered it can be slid in through the door speaker housing and fitted in 10 minutes.
I could write at least 10,000 words (and would struggle to squeeze it in) about main dealers. Ford in particular, then VW, another Fiat dealer years ago and Rover.
Then the `trusted independents` one of whom was gradually fleecing my female colleague for unnecessary work, while using an oil that wore the engine to the point of low oil pressure.
Some good independents that said - but main dealers - only two I found I could trust over 40 years.
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I agree PL but so far NW doesn't have any evidence except for her independent's opinion not as i have any bones to pick with him (presumably) but he could have a vested interest in acquiring NW's future repair work to her fleet of ecolgically friendly hilux pick ups..;
Actually, the independent had a clear vested interest in this case -- a vested interest in finding a fault, because he knew I'd get him to do the work on the brakes if it was needed. He got the job last time the brakes needed work, and when I showed him the car I explicitly told him that if it needed doing I preferred his prices to those of the main dealer.
And I'm afraid he won't get any work on my pickup, if I get one. The pickup will be in Ireland, not Yorkshire. :)
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I was a mobile car tuner for 14 years, whenever I worked on any car, I would always throw the plugs, points and condenser in the garbage - even if they were brand spanking new and fitted the previous day.
I used to guarantee my work, but couldn't guarantee their parts + I only used NGK, Lucas & Bosch.
You say your Almera is 5 years old roughly, and you had the brakes done 3 years ago by an indie - so it was still under the manufacturers 3 year warranty then?
20,000 miles can be hard on the braking system - especially in your hilly part of the world ... *more so* if it's an automatic transmission.
Did the indie use GENUINE Nissan parts?
Why didn't you use the indie for the annual service if they are so good?
And lastly - have a great holiday/trip wherever you're off to this week :)
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I was a mobile car tuner for 14 years whenever I worked on any car I would always throw the plugs points and condenser in the garbage - even if they were brand spanking new and fitted the previous day.
Is it any wonder that some people automatically regard anyone in the motor trade as a rip-off merchant?
You say your Almera is 5 years old roughly and you had the brakes done 3 years ago by an indie - so it was still under the manufacturers 3 year warranty then?
Yes, it was. But the cost saving of the indie was big enough to make the job worthwhile, and brakes discs+pads seemed like a reasonably self-contained item. I might have made a difft decision if it was part of the engine.
20 000 miles can be hard on the braking system - especially in your hilly part of the world ... *more so* if it's an automatic transmission.
True, but it's not that hard on them, and most of the miles I travel are on the motorway. And in way case it doesn't explain why the dealer claimed that the rear discs and pads were in so much worse state that the fronts -- surely the rears should wear less that the fronts
Did the indie use GENUINE Nissan parts?
No. I was quite satisfied that the alternatives were of at least as good quality. Since brake discs and pads aren't warranty items anyway, there's no warranty benefit to be derived from using manufacturer's parts.
However, I didn't explain the full story of what happened then. I wasn't happy with the dealer's brakes quote in 2006, so took it to the indie who said replace the front disc+pads, but not the rears. So he did that.
When I was next back at the dealership, they swore blind to me that my rear brakes were indeed dangerously worn, and the indie was wrong. On that occasion I took their advice, and let them replace the rears -- so the rears are supposed to be genuine Nissan. The bits which the dealer says are wrecked are the bits they installed.
Why didn't you use the indie for the annual service if they are so good?
Answered above, near the top of this thread.
And lastly - have a great holiday/trip wherever you're off to this week :)
Thanks!
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are on the motorway. And in way case it doesn't explain why the dealer claimedthat the rear discs and pads were in so much worse state that the fronts -- surely the rears should wear less that the fronts
It's often the case that the little use the rears get* doesn't help in the wear dept as they corrode and i've seen corrosion on rear discs so bad that 50% of the surface is pitted and rough and scored and not providing even braking, the fronts don't get as bad before replacement i think because the roughness is felt through the pedal and often sounds grim too, whereas the underused rears are hardly felt at all.
As you have fleet of vehicles (non as heathern as my gas guzzling eccentricities i grant you..;) NW, could this be the case that the Almera stands for extended periods and rust has taken excessive hold of the rear discs.
* quite why so many normal cars have rear disc brakes is another question altogether, i'm firmly of the opinion that 75% of normal cars now fitted with rear discs would be just as effectively braked if those rears were drums, would also lead to simpler and more effective handbrake mechanisms in many cases too.
I'm keeping an open mind on this and look forward to hearing the outcome of Monday's investigation.
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As you have fleet of vehicles (non as heathern as my gas guzzling eccentricities i grant you..;) NW could this be the case that the Almera stands for extended periods and rust has taken excessive hold of the rear discs.
I was quite persuaded by that explanation when all pads and discs were replaced at 21,000 miles, because the car had been a motability vehicle which I bought s/h ... so it may have been hanging around for a while after the demise of the first owner, and probably hung around for a while before I bought it.
But since I have owned it, I have never left it standing for more than 48 hours until this summer, when I spent a month in the campervan (which I only took possession of in July). By then I was aware of the possibility of corrosion, so when I got home at the start of September, I took it out and gave it a bunch of emergency stops downhill (sufficient to trigger the ABS) to clear any surface rust.
I'm keeping an open mind on this and look forward to hearing the outcome of Monday's investigation.
I'll see if I can post photos after the event. But the fact that the garage has already changed its story from "rear brake pads worn through and scored the discs" to "corrosion on outer surface of discs" is enough to persuade me that there was some trickery going on. AFAICS, the question is just what trickery.
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Thank you for being totally honest NowWheels - unlike a lot of the garage trade!
What you may wish to consider for your future servicing requirements, is a mobile service operative who Will carry out the work - whilst you watch if you want, and you can build up a trusting relationship with him + it may even work out a few pfennigs cheaper.
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perro who in their right mind would want to work out of the back of a van on someones drive while the customer is on their shoulder nudging them out of the way to have a look as they are trying to knock the pins out.
Can you imagine going across town to fit a set of rear shoes on something like a seat ,youve been to the factors and the guy behind the counter youve given the registration number to says there are 4 combinations of shoes fitted to that model on that year and they only have 3 types in stock,what do you do ?so you take them jack customers car up only to find the ones you havent got are the ones you need and oh look it needs a track rod end too
List is endless, the futures bright its the trusted garage that comes recommended by friends /neighbours it always was and always will be,tell tale signs are always there like is the place too clean ? if it is the boss is either too finicky and charges over top dolla or there isnt enough work to go round,you should be looking for busy but ever so slightly tatty ie we only have time to paint the floors on xmas eve
Ive said before i think? that unless im pushed at work i dont give advise anymore because its like whistling in the wind,these people nod their heads at the advise you give then file it under b for bin as soon as they have left your side
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"...who in their right mind would want to work out of the back of a van on someone's drive while the customer is on their shoulder nudging them out of the way to have a look..."
Well, that's pretty much what happens on my drive when my trusted indie works on my car - and he's happy to talk about what he's doing, or any other aspect of cars, at the same time.
I think BB has become ever so slightly cynical about his customers! (Based on experience, I'm sure!)
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bell boy - - - you are 100% correct Sir!
That's why I had to convalesce in Tenerife for 3 years & bathe my head in Dorada :)
There were just a few cars that got the better of me in the 14 years, but customers!!!
I reckon most, if not all service engineers are in a similar situation because my Brother was a TV engineer, and he's hair is Grey going on silver like mine!
But, I must admit - I did enjoy mobile tuning in the early days, but speaking to my neighbour (I do that once in a while!) who does tuning/diagnostic work + MOT's + classic car restoration + general servicing + Perodua dealer + + +, he was telling me about some of the course's he has to go on, well - I run in and nail the front door up!
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"tell tale signs are always there like is the place too clean ? if it is the boss is either too finicky and charges over top dolla or there isnt enough work to go round"
Not too sure about that, but I guess there will always be exceptions.
I have used a well known Vauxhall Omega specialist for brakes on my car a couple of times and their service area is exceptionally clean and tidy (IMO). Service is with genuine parts, swift, thorough and competitively priced. Good advice is free also.
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Very likely the same idiots who have been done over by assorted main dealers and back street monkeys then go on to give people like bell boy and perro a moronic hard time over nothing in particular.
As I said, all of this is built into the privately owned automobile. People buy at a bargain price something they can't drive or understand. Nor, being like that, can they afford it.
I have nothing but sympathy for hard-working car men who have to deal with these faffing twits. But when the car men get corrupted or impatient and just say any old thing expecting it to be believed, they lose my sympathy.
It's an idiotic world.
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NW,
Any update to this?
ND
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Yes,I've been looking forward to finding out what's happened!
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