depends i.e. on what circumstances you're going to stop someone
for drink/driving you'd need to establish either:
1, moving traffic offence..e.g. 31mph in 30mph limit...or
2, something to suspect them of having committed that offence e.g. poor lane control
(3, relates to after an accident, so not relevant to your qstn)
there are other reasons to stop cars e.g. under Road Traffic Act establish whether driver has insurance or driving licence....once you've done that, you'd notice drink on their breath and could then revert to 2, above
then there's criminality, if you thought a car was stolen for example, stopped it, then smelt drink etc (but you'd have to have something to fuel your suspicions, you can't just state "Hey, that one might be stolen").
In reality there are more than sufficient powers to stop drink/drivers....which just goes to show how out of touch politicians are when they bluster about new laws for random stop/checks...if you can stop any car you like to see if it has insurance, why would you need another power, when talking to the driver will give you an idea whether or not they've had a drink
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Westpig,
Thanks for that.
I was thinking more about being stopped in general, not just on suspicion of drink driving.
Someone told me years ago that if I was stopped, the officer had to give a reason.
From your post, looks like there are plenty of reasons an experienced officer could come up with.
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When I was stopped many years ago, the reason given was "we are having lots of cars like yours stolen round here so are just checking up".
Seemed a bit of a flimsy excuse and not sure if it would work these days...
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Does the 'routine check' not apply any more, got stopped a few times when younger for that reason.
Sure ive said before, got pulled up in my Landcruiser by a couple of very cheery officers in the early hours on my way home from night shift quite close to a notorious (for stolen cars esp 4x4's) itinerant spot.
They told me quite openly they were checking my car was not nicked before reaching that place...once they were happy i was who i claimed to be they bade me farewell, seemed like good policing to me regardless whether they'd ticked all the boxes, and i was grateful for their observation.
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I have always considered that in law the answer is yes, in reality the answer is no.
But I don't have a problem with that. Suspicion should be good enough IMHO, though I appreciate that victimisation can be an issue and probably the reason for the law. Another case of law being changed or conceived because of the behaviour of the few.
FTF
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Driving around in Ireland this summer, I was surprised by the number of Garda Síochána roadblocks. I drove about 4000km in 4 weeks, and encountered at least six such roadblocks in which all traffic in both directions was stopped. The usual recipe is a patrol car parked in the middle of the road with driver at the wheel, and one officer for each lane of traffic.
I don't recall ever encountering such a thing in the UK, so maybe the Gardaí have more powers to do this. They appear to be mostly looking for cars without tax or insurance discs, or for UK-registered cars which have spent too long in Ireland (vehicle taxes are higher in Ireland, so some people try fiddling the system).
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Re "I don't recall ever encountering such a thing in the UK" I have been stopped a number of times in such a roadblock, normally as the pubs are shutting and they are trying to catch drink drivers, always makes me laugh when i get brethalysed after half a shandy and show up green, not entirely sure they really have the powers to do this but they seem to get away with it, much easier for them to hassle drivers than pedestrians
And if you know any decent copper there are an easy set of excuses for stopping any driver or indeed pedestrian, and indeed fairly easy ways of arresting people if nothing obvious springs to mind, so they may as well have short term catch all powers
The biggest joke is the city centre knife scanners, where they just dont have the powers to force you down that path like they try to convince you they have, I've made it plain to them they are exceeding their powers big time and walked off and they have never challenged me mainly because I'm sure I am right - knowing some coppers they already know where the thugs carrying knifes hang out if they just went and got them it would save a lot of hassle (im sure various politically correct management dictats stop this)
cannot be easy being a copper in this country
i prefer the system in chicago where they are quite happy to shoot someone they spot nicking a car stereo, but the decent folk just about always get left alone
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I draw you attention to :
Section 163, Road Traffic Act 1988 which states:
Power of police to stop vehicles
(1) A person driving a motor vehicle on a road must stop the vehicle on being required to do so by a constable in uniform.
(2) A person riding a cycle on a road must stop the cycle on being required to do so by a constable in uniform.
(3) If a person fails to comply with this section he is guilty of an offence.
Note the absence of any reason for doing to.
Whilst Wetspig gives various reasons these are the power to demand a breath test. Which means on a general stop as above one smells alcohol on the breath of the driver then power to test. Which also means a 'random' test secenario virtually exists.
dvd
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Do I understand this right, DVD?
A constable can stop a car without reason (which allows roadblocks to used), but if anything then becomes evident which arouses suspicion, further powers may kick in to allow breath-testing or whatever.
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I remember watching one of those police programs where they stopped a young-ish youth in a car claiming or using the reason that one of his rear lights or brake lights wasn't working. Then magically as soon as they had him stopped the light in question was working just fine.
I don't know if that was a genuine conincidence, whether it was just used as a (bogus) reason to stop him or what. If I remember correctly the TV footage didn't show any bits with the car travelling along with a defective light.
My point is, if they don't have a proper valid reason to stop you, its not hard to find an excuse that will do the job.
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Nowheels:
Road Blocks are a different kettle of fish and under PACE have to be authorised.
May I add before Pug Ugly shoots me down that in Beard v Wood [1980] it was held that the power is available providing that the PC is not acting capriciously but in a bona fide manner. A driver is under a duty to keep a vehicle at a standstill whilst a PC has a reasonable opportunity to excercise the power i.e. arrest detain a stolen vehicle, ask for documents etc etc etc .
dvd
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As Westpig says, there are ample standing reasons (or excuses or pretexts) for stopping a car to see if the driver is ripped on something or 'not the owner of the vehicle'.
I have several times, when parting from the officer concerned, asked why I was stopped in the first place. In all cases where the reason wasn't obvious (squealing your tyres in front of a copper, going too fast, etc.) the reply has been a mysterious, slightly malicious smile and a brush-off. I've asked the same question when pulled by customs at Dover, with the same slightly irritating response.
I'm afraid some people just exude a dodgy vibe, and something tells me that I am one of them, at least when the Old Bill have nothing much to do and want some amusement.
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About ten years ago I was stopped at a very obvious "road block" on a little used (but main road) alternative route. Two PCs stood alongside a marked transit van at 1am. Loads of questions to get you talking for drink assesment. I had not had a drink for days but had a car full of very merry people being taken home from a office christmas party that I had not attended (obvious by my dress). When the younger PCs questions got so personal about my wife (In the car) that I protested, his older (and wiser) collegue physically pulled him away from my car window and thanked me for my help and wished me a safe journey. I am sure they were not traffic police. Road blocks, yes they do, in my area anyway.
Edited by Old Navy on 12/09/2009 at 16:16
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I remember watching one of those police programs where they stopped a young-ish youth in a car using the reason that one of his rear lights or brake lights wasn't working.
I really do wish they'd do that more often. For one thing it would improve the dismal standards of lighting maintenance on vehicles in the UK (cue the inevitable sob stories about 2 hours to change a bulb ;-) ) and following on from that, human nature dictates that if people are careless about that then they'll be careless about other things like having one too many.
I daresay there will be Elf 'n'Safety reasons why it doesn't happen.
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Whilst Westpig gives various reasons ....
Thankyou DVD...i'm afraid I went down a rather narrow path re drink drive stops and re reading it, it could have made more sense
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I have just remembered, I was stopped at a roadblock at 3am at the bottom of the Rest and be Thankful, No problem once I had identified myself as returning from a well known (to them) military site. I later found out that there had been a robbery on the Mull of Kintyre and that is one of the few routes off the peninsula, likewise at the southern end of Glen Coe after a robbery in Fort William. Those blocks are fair enough.
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I was pulled once at 2.30am after dropping my parents off at the airport (for a 'routine check').
the kind policeman then wouldn't believe that I was dropping my parents off at the airport and lent into the car and took the ignition keys out of my car (before I was even invited got out).
They then asked for documents (which I just happened to have my driving license on me at the time) and turfed my car upside down onto the road side.
They checked the glove box, ignition barrel, hand brake, under the seats, lifted up the back seats, turfed everything in the boot out onto the road and checked the tyres.
Once not satisfied I then got a real grilling for driving out on the road at 2.30am and blatantly told me that they did not believe a word I was saying about dropping my parents off at the airport.
These policemen were clearly not happy that they found everything in order and I was told that I could go on my way quickly, yet I was left to put everything back into the car (including spare tyre, everything back in the glove box etc)
To this day I do not understand why I was treated like pink fluffy dice and yet I had done nothing wrong.
This is why I have a slight uneasy feeling about the police in general.
The next guy was not so lucky as his typical chav style driving got him a severe grilling as he almost ran over the policeman standing in the road.
Edited by Webmaster on 14/09/2009 at 02:00
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Friend of mine was once stopped by the police in Northwich, Cheshire, while out walking in the small hours. He said he was out for a walk. The copper or coppers said disapprovingly that it was a bit late to be out for a walk.
None have ever been so foolhardy as to say anything like that to me. But I live in hope...
:o}
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Strange that we now have a curfew that nobody told us about. Im always suspicious of people who seek power over others anyway.
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The silliest stop I ever got was while working as a Park Ranger. The PC looked about fifteen, was on foot and flagged me down at the side of the road as I left a petrol station on the firms Suzuki 185. I was in uniform, the bike was liveried up with the borough's stickers all over it and I had a radio happily babbling away in the background, yet he still gave me a producer and I had to attend the local cop shop with all the documents.
The guy behind the desk found it quite amusing.
Edited by Robin Reliant on 12/09/2009 at 21:30
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I've been driving for over 30 years and have been pulled over for a breath test in this country twice. Once late at night and the other mid-afternoon.
I was in Australia over most of the summer and they have Random Breath Testing (RBT) as a matter of course. In Queensland I passed one RBT set-up but was pulled over at the next one about 4 miles away. They pulled in almost every car to a lay-by and the driver had to give a breath sample. Each 'check' took about 30 seconds. This was at approx 5pm on a Saturday and we'd been out on a boat fishing around the Whitsunday Islands (wow!!) and over the course of the day I'd had a couple of 'tinnies' but passed the RBT. (phew!) The police need no reason to stop you - it's literally random.
I think we should have this approach in this country, especially in rural areas where the police presence is much lower. (As an aside I think the liberal/civil rights/do-gooders don't help in the fight against crime in the UK).
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Strange that we now have a curfew that nobody told us about.
No curfew, but who's most likely to be out in the early hours? Drunks and theives... so if they come across a sober person which one are they likely to be?
Or it could be me on my way home from a late shift...!!
Damned if they do, damned if they don't again I feel...
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A friend of many years ago was at that time head of banqueting at a very famous and posh golf / country club hotel in Perthshire.
His work attire was a dinner suit. By the very nature of his job he often finished work well after midnight. he lived quite a distance away in Edinburgh but the commute was not too bad due to the quiet times he was on the road.
He was pulled over countless times on the way home. A young bloke in a dinner suit driving home late at night.......
"Been drinking have we sir ? "
" No such luck I'm afraid "
" Blow in the bag anyway please sir "
" OK - Please yourself, I know the drill..... "
;-)
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>>No curfew, but who's most likely to be out in the early hours? Drunks and theives... so if they come across a sober person which one are they likely to be? <<
I think thats a somewhat simplistic view as there are many, many people who work nights in this country and Im afraid the idea that thieves and their ilk skulk around only in the wee small hours is a great fairy tale, but in reality, they do come out in the daylight aswell.
There are an infinate number of reasons why someone may be driving at night and to make blind assumptions based on the time is very unwise. To make comment that someone has any less right to be out at night is overstepping a very big mark.
Unless you have or are intending to commit a crime, the Police have no right to tell you not to be out at a certain hour. Power crazy individuals some of them clearly.
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DVD
As true as it get. My brother is a patrol officer. They can stop anyone, and take breath test if smelling of booze - or take drug test or ooze test if appearing to be unsteady/etc.
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Paul
We are talking about is the power of Plod to STOP a vehicle.
Regarding what you say there are certain circumstances that have to be fullfilled for him to require a breath test.
If you are stopped and have no alcohol in your body, have not been involved in an accident or committed a moving traffic offence then he cannot ask you to blow.
dvd
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>> If you are stopped and have no alcohol in your body have not been involved in an accident or committed a moving traffic offence then he cannot ask you to blow.
They only need cause to believe you may have been drinking (and how are you going to prove they didn't), he can then ask you to blow. It would be a foolish person who refuses.....
On the roads the police are a law unto themselves and like most normal people, there are good and bad.
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