Did a really stupid thing in trying to jump start this car from another whose engine was running. I attached the jump leads in the wrong sense on the Clio and didn't realise until the leads got hot. After this the Clio won't start ! There is now a near short on the chubbyish cable which runs from the battery + back in towards the dashboard. The short (4.5 Ohms) appears when the ignition key is turned to first stop.
Two questions:
1. What is the most vulnerable component on that cable after the ignition switch ?
2. Where can I get a reasonable free circuit diagram - in English ?
Any assistance in getting me out of this ka-ka (I'm in France) would be very gratefully received.
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On a car of that age there shouldn't be to many electronics, the alternator is normally the first thing to suffer but that would be s/c all the time, not the radio I suppose? Don't Haynes do a book for it? The way I used to do it with TVs was turn it on and watch for the smoke. 4.5 ohms is going to be about 3 amps, I would have thouight that would have been enough to at least produce some heat.
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Thanks for your comments Peter. A Haynes manual would cost more than the car's worth I reckon ! Am hoping for a free download of a circuit diag.I guess I'll just have to disconnect things bit by bit to find the culprit. I'm not brave enough to wait for smoke, particularly when the owner of the car is standing alongside !
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A Haynes manual would cost more than the car's worth
Some Libraries have them on the shelf for you to photocopy, loan, etc.
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" The short (4.5 Ohms) appears when the ignition key is turned to first stop." - that's only 32 watts. It could be normal.
V/R=I 12/4.5=2.67
V*R=P 12*2.67=32watts
Edited by Hamsafar on 28/08/2009 at 09:48
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I agree with Hamsafar - 4.5 ohms is not that low.
Connecting the batteries together with the jump leads created a short circuit in the jump leads - and that's why they got hot; the short was not through your car's circuits. Did the other car survive this OK ? - that had the engine running and was potentially at higher risk than yours.
I would swap your battery for a known good battery (connected right way round :-) ) and see if the car starts
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Lesson one. NEVER connect jump leads when the supply engine is running. I personnally would never try and start the duff car when the donnor engine is running. I will run the engine for 5 or 10 mintes then shut it off and then start the other car. The reversed leads tried to reverse the polarity of the low battery but may not have actually done so, if it infact did then the diode pack in the alternator will have taken a hit so you need to dissconnect that and see what the situation is. Having said that this would not stop the car from starting but I need more information on what happened. Did you actually try and start the car when the donor battery was reversed. Why was the battery originally flat, tell us more. Regards Peter
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Peter, I guess I was lucky that the donor car wasn't damaged by my stupidity. I had not got as far as attempting to start the subject car with the leads reversed, fortunately. Before seeing your update I have revisted the situation and connected the donor car battery alone to the faulty car. All looks ok until starting, when all I get is a loud (relay??) chattering sound from somewhere between the engine and the bulkhead. I was single-handed and not able to pinpoint the source. There was no attempt by the starter to move. The Clio battery was flat(ish) because of lack of use, no other reason. Now it's on charge but not looking very healthy, even though it was new last year. Thanks for your help. Regards, JT
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SteVee and Hamsafar, you are both right of course. The apparent short was because the battered battery wasn't able to cope even with that low current. I have followed your suggestion and tested the car with another battery. It still won't start but the voltage remains reasonably steady, like it should. See below for the new "won't start" symptoms. Thanks for the interest that you have shown, it's much appreciated. Regards TJ
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I am starting to think the noise you heard was form the starter solenoid. Did the panel lights come on and what voltage was across the battery. I'll pull a pug cct diagram and take a look. Regards Peter
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OK, there are a few things connected even with the ignition off, like the Glow plug control unit, constant feed for radio memory, the hazard lights relay and some auxillaries like interior lights, central locking and the like. I Susoect the noise may be form the glow plug control unit but I do not see how that would stop the starter. The Glow Plug unit may be drawing a lot of current and stalling the battery. I need you to get an assistant and find out where the noise is coming from and the battery voltage when the noise is present. Regards Peter
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OK thanks for your further thoughts. As I said, I will do those checks asap tomorrow. Many thanks. Regards, JT
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Have spent time trying to identify the source of the chattering and even now cannot identify it properly.
The 'at rest' starting voltage was 12.9V
Ignition switch position 1 : 10.5V for 5 seconds then 12.3V (presumably glow-plugs warmup)
Ignition start : 7.8V with chattering but no starter activity
Back 'at rest' : 12.5V
The sound seems to come from a unit below the inlet manifold between the engine and the bulkhead, although the sound is present at almost every point that I put my probe. The unit is virtually completely hidden and would be a pig to get at to replace.
I took some photos to try to illustrate the area and I have put them, and a diagram, on YouTube as videos of the still pictures. I hope you are sufficiently interested to have a look and comment. Just do a search on YouTube.com for my id > jobytug1
Thank you for your interest. Regards, JT
Mod's Edit
Brilliant idea the YouTube one - here's the link
www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJZg40q7hBk
Edited by Pugugly on 29/08/2009 at 20:11
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I think Peter D was on the money & the chattering was from the starter solenoid.
If the battery voltage drops to 10.5 with just the glow plugs activated then the battery is knackered.
I'm prety sure that if you get a good battery the engine will start.
This is fortunately a low tech sinple diesel with no ECU or other electronic gagetry & just needs the fuel solenoid activated & some warm glow plugs to start.
You may need a new alternator if the battery light stays on after starting.
Best of luck.
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Thanks Dieselnut. I was using jump leads connecting to my diesel Pug406 for the last attempt. That battery is a good 'un - and still is, fortunately. The original Clio battery is away on charge and wasn't involved.
Where is the fuel solenoid ? Is it underneath the bulky unit at the back of the engine with four chambers which I assume to be the inlet manifold ?
It seems that I am going to need some luck to fix this.
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Thanks Dieselnut. I was using jump leads connecting to my diesel Pug406 for the last attempt. That battery is a good 'un - and still is fortunately. The original Clio battery is away on charge and wasn't involved.
Jump leads will not be man enough to carry all the current necessary to start the engine - they rely on a semi-good slave battery to do some of the work. You'll have to connect the donor battery directly to your battery terminals to try it properly.
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Thanks mfarrow, you're right. I'll check this out asap tomorrow. Regards, JT
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That seems logical. The panel lights came on as normal - although I'm not familiar with the Clio per se - there was no alarm light. From memory, the voltage dropped to around 10.5V, certainly no lower. The closest I could get to a cct diag from the net was one in Serbo Croat - at least it looks very alien to my limited grasp of languages ! It won't be until tomorrow before I can get back to the 'beached whale'. Thanks again. Regards, JT.
Edited by Pugugly on 29/08/2009 at 20:11
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.................IT'S FIXED !!
It was simply down to the fact that the battery reversal had all but depleted the Clio's battery and that direct replacement (NOT via jump leads) with a good one was all that was needed.
Many, many thanks to all my tutors on this site. You have saved me a lot of time and money.
Keep up the good work chaps ! Gratefully yours, JobyTug
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As I thought, it was the starter pre-engage solenoid rattling away as there was not enough current to pull it in and turn the engine. Check the voltage across the battery when running to make sure you have not popped a couple of diodes, 13.9 to 14.2 would be good news. Regards Peter
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"Check the voltage across the battery when running "
I have done as you suggest Peter and the voltage across the battery with the engine running is 14.5.
So I guess I'm very lucky not to have caused widespread damage to the Clio and to my car too. I'm very relieved.
Thanks again for all your advice and guidance. Regards, JT
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Your welcome. Regards Peter
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