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I think a hot hatch has to be more than just performance, so the Citroen qualifies with the name 'Volcane' but the 306 'D Turbo' doesn't.
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The Citroen ZX Volcane TD was launched in 1991. What about the 1988 FIAT Tipo? At the launch of the Tipo range the "top" model in the range was the "sporty" 1.9 diesel DSX, as the Sedicivalvole was a couple of years away.
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If you are talking about the 95bhp XR3 which had a 0 - 60 time of around 10 seconds, I would be careful of daming the Citroen with feint praise!
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I think we are forgetting the Fiat Tipo 1.9tdi, which was the fastest Tipo available for quite a while. Loved that digital dash.
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I'd have given another vote for the 205, but it was never sold as a hot hatch... having said that those early diesel "hot" hatches would be better named "warm" hatches! The Fabia seems to be the only one that has really developed a cult following, though.
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I had a Volcane TD - great car; not going to set the world on fire by today's standards but pretty fast for its time - for a diesel.
Even had the three door in red, would have loved the 16v as the one in the advert but with the miles I did, couldn't justify the petrol...
Didn't like paddling though, came to an abrupt hydraulic-ed end.
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HJ liked the Auris SR 180. Under 8 seconds, 130mph, 45mpg... and comfortable over bumps. Hot enough for most people's needs surely?
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First ever to me was the Pug 205 D Turbo. Only 80 bhp but weighed very little. My German teacher had one and it flew.
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First ever to me was the Pug 205 D Turbo. Only 80 bhp but weighed very little. My German teacher had one and it flew.
Exactly what did it/he/she fly? Stuka??
Ok Ok. I'll go get another beer. MD
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Mk2 Golf GTD was about the same time - the 1588 TD with an intercooler, knocked out 80 bhp. I think it was 1990, I've not seen F regs, but plenty of G and H.
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wasn't there also at some point although never in the UK a turbo diesel Fiat Strada ABARTH model? ie back in the early mid 80s?
I am always astonished as to how quickly power outputs on turbo diesels have shot up - in late 70s the Peugeot 604 Turbo diesel managed to raise 80bhp (ie 10 more than the naturally aspirated 2304cc engine) and had about 130 torque (uo about 33 or so) but now you'd be getting about 180bhp and getting on for 300lbs/ft torque from the same size engine. I don't believe there's been anything like the same jump in power output in 30 years for petrol cars turbo or non turbo.
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I don't believe there's been anything like the same jump in power output in 30 years for petrol cars turbo or non turbo.
1983 Cavalier 1.6 - 88ps
2009 Insignia 1.6 turbo - 178ps
1983 Sierra 2.0 - 101ps
2009 Mondeo 2.0 - 145ps
To name but two.
What concerns me more is the jump in performance: An early base model Sierra would struggle to hit 100mph, and the V6 XR4i topped out at 127mph. The current base model Mondeo does 128mph!
Have today's mid-20s sales reps' driving skills increased accordingly?
It's not even a recent innovation - when I passed my test a brand new XR3i (any 17-year-old's dream car) had 115ps and did 117mph. 19 years later I drive a clapped-out R-reg Escort with the same power output and 6mph higher top speed - and it cost me less than a week's wages!
Dave TD
Edited by Dave_TD {P} on 14/05/2009 at 23:23
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Dave, good comparisons there.
I remember a while back posing the question that could top end speed not be exchanged for better economy. Most modern cars are capable of doing into 3 figures and your aerage rep mobile will touch 120. Seems a lot of wasted power and capacity that could be exchanged for more efficient and economical engines.
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To put it another way MD it went like manure off an MPs shovel!
I think his style was more ME 109 or Focke Wulf!
Edited by mattbod on 15/05/2009 at 01:28
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Not particularly fast but I did see a XR2D in France-yes,that's what it said on the back.All the XR2 bits but with a diesel motor-presumably the 60hp. one.
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I would vote for the 306 D Turbo. Felt genuinely quick on boost, and had wonderful handling. I'm sure its ZX sister had similar qualities. We had one for a year and once you learned to drive around its monumental turbo lag, it went like stink. Probably the first diesel you might consider buying for reasons other than fuel economy, i.e. it was decent to drive.
Interesting comments re: performance and progress. Here's a good one:
1984 Vauxhall Cavalier 1.8 SRi
0-60: 8.9 seconds
Max: 120 mph
Can't find fuel consumption figures, but mine returned around 30 mpg in mixed daily driving, with mid 30's on a run. It wasn't driven gently.
2009 Vauxhall Insignia 1.8 SRi
0-62: 11.5 seconds
Max: 128 mph
Combined mpg: 36.7 (so, real world, 32 ish???)
I am not for one minute suggesting the Insignia isn't the immeasurably better car of the two, but the bald figures are disappointing for a quarter of a century of 'progress'.
Maximum speeds have increased as a result of more power and better aerodynamics, but acceleration of petrol cars at legal speeds is pretty much where it was 20 yrs ago. Slightly backside about face in a world where three figure speeds now routinely land people in jail, but the cut and thrust of modern traffic conditions makes a car with snappy acceleration much more pleasurable to drive.
Cars nowadays are simply too heavy. Put that Insignia's engine in the old Cavalier, and I'd bet you'd have a car that would do 0-60 in the mid 7's, and return well over 40 mpg in daily driving. That would have been progress! :-)
Diesels are now in a place we could scarcely of dreamed of 25 yrs ago, but while the power outputs speak for themselves, I still think a big part of their apparent improvement is because petrol engines are increasingly hopeless in today's big, heavy cars, particularly in "cooking" trim, such as a 1.8 repmobile, or 1.4 small hatchback. The diesel's torque copes much better with the weight.
Edited by DP on 15/05/2009 at 09:38
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...The diesel's torque copes much better with the weight...
My CC3 must be about the heaviest Focus.
The reviews say the two litre petrol is underpowered.
I've got the two litre diesel which gives a reasonable anount of poke, due largely to turbo torque.
If money were no object?
A normally aspirated V8 petrol of extravagant capacity bolted to a torque converter autobox.
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Agree with DP.
If I remember right, Car magazine always rated the Citroen AX 1.5D as one of the first 'fun' diesels. Probably because the car weighed only 1400 pounds, it didn't need much torque to make it move smartly ....
I would love to put a state-of-the-art modern diesel (like the twin-turbo 4 pot job from the 1-series BM) into a lighweight shell. 300 lb-ft and 1000kg sounds about right to me :-D
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I seem to remember that in the 205 D turbo's days, there was a comparison made with it against a Ferrari or 911 or similar exotica that was kind to the 205. Maybe a 30-50 figure or something similar, but it was enough to make people sit up and take notice!!
I had a normal ZX diesel Avantage hatch, and then traded it for a turbo diesel Aura Estate and remember being totally shocked by the performance, especially the acceleration for overtaking.
Since that car, I have only ever owned turbo diesels.
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My criticism of the ZX Aura was, although it was the first car I had owned with alloy wheels, it was also the first car with alloy wheels that I thought had been designed to look like wheel trims!!
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First one I was in that alerted me to the performance improvements was a 306 D Turbo, which I seem to recall was an L-reg. This was a white three door with alloys, and even if it were still around today, it would still look the part - pretty timeless car the 306.
I ended up with the ZX TD a few years later - a Memphis special edition. The ZX I think was lighter than the 306, so posted a 10.something 0-60 time compared to 12.something for the 306, although both cars felt faster than that. The other option at the time was a Golf TDi, but they didn't offer an especially sporty variant and equipment levels were miserable compared to the French cars.
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The other option at the time was a Golf TDi but they didn't offer an especially sporty variant and equipment levels were miserable compared to the French cars.
They did offer the Mk2 Golf in GTD trim in Europe, but a 'performance diesel' wasn't on VAG UK's radar in those days and so it was never sold in the UK. More's the pity.
I agree that the ZX TD was the first diesel hot hatch (I only had a non-turbo base model), but the better looks of the subsequent 306 TD means that most folk would recognise this as the first diesel hot hatch with looks to match.
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They did offer the Mk2 Golf in GTD trim in Europe but a 'performance diesel' wasn't on VAG UK's radar in those days and so it was never sold in the UK. More's the pity.
The Mk2 Golf GTD was offered in the UK - see tinyurl.com/rx6mk5
IIRC the GTD was basically the Driver model with a diesel. It wasn't a hot hatch though - the GTI was the hot version.
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1984 Vauxhall Cavalier 1.8 SRi 0-60: 8.9 seconds Max: 120 mph
where di you get that info from?
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To put it another way MD it went like manure off an MPs shovel! I think his style was more ME 109 or Focke Wulf!
>>
I hope that he kept it clean and that it wasn't a dirty little Wulf!! (Respect to Stan Boardman)
MD
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I had a ZX Volcane TD for five years and then a 306 TD. Same engine and 'box I think but the ZX was a far superior car to drive. Quieter, faster, smoother and better handling. 306 was fine in isolation but a distinctly heavy front end feel which the Zx managed to disguise. Got rid of the 306 after 18 months as I really didn't find it half as much fun to drive. Both were simply my daily work hacks but the journey is all twisty roads. the fact that I kept the ZX until it died, and wouldn't otherwise have changed it, says it all for me. Current Golf GT TDi is a good modern replacement and again, not something I'm looking to change.
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A note of respect for the `old mechanical donkey` the good old Maestro Clubman D - no turbo.. The car that convinced you all you had hot diesel hatches as you went past it in fifth while it struggled up main road hills in third.
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I had a ZX Aura TD, lovely car, but like Ctireoneon's, I also hydraulicked my engine by takign it paddling.
Great fun to drive, handled better than most of the other diesels I've run.
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Helped by its active rear wheel steer system?
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I guess we see a common theme of the French taking forward the marketing of diesel cars with slightly sportier flavours than we had been used to in the UK in the early 90s. Strange that the Golf GTD didn't make an appearance in the Mk III - I distinctly remember the choice on the lease list I was given, and whilst it had the 306 D Turbo and the ZX Volcane, the Golfs on offer were just the plain old CL and GL models, with either the TDi or the Umwelt engines. Did Renault produce a sporty variant of the 19 or the Megane TD?
Another shout for the Fiat Tipo too - I very briefly owned an M-reg 1.9TD and was quite taken aback by just how much grunt the thing had, certainly felt quicker than I remember the ZX TD being, although there had been a fair few years between driving them. I suspect it was possibly just due to the turbo kick being a bit more old-fashioned in the manner in which it appeared.
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Vauxhall Nova 1.5 TDs were quite entertaining - a few were introduced in 1990, (L chassis) prior to the Novas front end and dashboard facelift. The 1500 Isuzu TD engine was really shoehorned into place when compared with the more usual petrol engines. The fit was sufficiently tight for the 15TD to need a different O/S chassis leg to other Novas.
Entertaining not really for out and out speed or power, nippy is probably a better description, but instead for the ease in overcoming the heavily overloaded 145 tyres, and producing monumental acceleration understeer.
As most of these engines aged, likewise the Isuzu 1700, the performance was often dulled by the valve clearances having closed up owing to valve seat recession.
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I had two Renault 19 TD's - superb very underrated cars. Fantastic performance for the money, good handling, and very comfortable in the usual Renault way. Both were very reliable too.
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I am a petrol head - born and bred ... I did go astray a few years ago though - and bought a Pug 306TD from a woman (womans car) I must say not only was the engine quiet, I used to luv putting it through its paces!
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