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This has to be good news for road safety - I just hope they allow it to be switchable ;-)
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I do wish they'd allow manufacturers to make a simple cheap reliable car rather than finding ever more complex things that have to be included on every automobile. Imagine having it on a Caterham.
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Just which TLA (Three Letter Acronym) does ESP stand for?
Extra Sensory Perception?
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Glad you asked Spospe, I was wondering if it was a gadget for helping you to guess which way some people are going to go on roundabouts.....
;-)
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ESP = You Should Have Learnt To Drive In a Rear Wheel Drive - oh doesn't quite fit but means the same. I knew we'd lost it when I found an ESP switch in the Roomie !
Edited by Pugugly on 15/04/2009 at 22:42
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Take it it's actually some kind of traction control type gizmo ?
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I thought ESP was fairly obviously Electronic Stability Programme
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Well it is now.....
:-)
Yet another thing I didn't know I needed. I'm so grateful to the EC for telling me I must have one soon. Can't think how I've survived this long without one.
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I learnt in a RWD and did all my driving courses in them as well.....so give us a clue !
Ted
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I actually strongly agree with this. The data from real world ESP equipped crash rates versus non-ESP is staggering.
I have been convinced of its benefits ever since I had it demonstrated to me by Porsche when they first introduced PSM (which is ESP by another name) in very dramatic fashion (it is also worth noting that Porsche test drivers then, and now, leave it switched on on the road).
By the way PSM=ESP=VSC=DSC etc. All the same thing.
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Did my post whilst others were explaining...thanks.
Hoped it might be erotic sex position.....but no luck there !
Ted
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See Ted - you never knew you needed it ! (ESP not the position thing !)
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See Ted - you never knew you needed it ! (ESP not the position thing
Memories !!
Ted
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I've seen mine flash into action once in three years, and that was during the snow when most people here were telling me it should've been switched off!
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I say replace all learner cars with a Lada Riva then ESP won't be needed. I am not against ESP but it is something one should choose rather than be forced to have. I am actually half glad my car does not have ABS as it is one less thing to go wrong.
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I actually think ABS is a must. You might slide a car on purpose, but locking the wheels is something that generally only happens when things have gone badly wrong. Well set up ABS (Ford and Peugeot are particularly good at it) is completely unobtrusive until genuinely needed. I have no issue with any other driver aid as long as it is switchable. I will probably choose to leave it on 99.9% of the time, but it should always be my choice as the driver.
The Golf has ESP, and is the first car I've owned to have such a thing. I haven't yet felt it do anything. Clearly I'm not trying hard enough, but then a mkIV Golf isn't really a "ragged edge in the lanes" type of machine ;-)
I cut my driving teeth on a Ford Sierra with RWD, 165 section tyres and zip in the way of electrickery. I can't imagine what I'd be missing out on in terms of both education and fun by learning to drive in a typical modern car.
Cheers
DP
Edited by DP on 15/04/2009 at 23:34
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I think it largelty depends on the car too, my car only has 65bhp and I am using it mainly in the city, if I lived in the countryside and drove down a lot of country lanes then I would have thought ABS would be very high on my wish list.
If I start doing some serious driving then a something like a Focus with ABS would be my number one choice.
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"country lanes then I would have thought ABS would be very high on my wish list."
If you need ABS on country lanes, then you are going too fast! If you come flying around a corner at 50 mph and happen upon an obstruction (horse or tractor), then no level of ABS or electrowhatsit will save you from the obstruction or the ditch.
The only time my ABS has cut in is when coming to a stop at junctions (okay so probably too fast), but when, argueably ABS did not actually help me to stop any sooner.
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I think you'll find that all driving is serious, Rattle. Accidents can, and do, happen at any speed... in town or out of it...in a vehicle with 65BHP or with considerably more.. or with a lot less power. To illustrate my point I would recall that I was once driving a very large red emergency vehicle, with ABS, in town when a man on a very small motor bike, without ABS, coming in the opposite direction bumped in to the car in front of him (the car had stopped to let me through) and fell off and rolled directly in to my path. My ABS kicked in and an abrupt but orderly and controlled stop meant that the fella in the middle of the road got up and walked away unscathed (albeit a little shocked, I'm sure). No drama, no tyre marks, no blood.
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I should be in bed now but I know all driving is serious, it is just a lot easier to stop a car straightly at 30mph with no ABS than it is at 60mph with no ABS. I had to an emergency stop last week and I controled it nicely and made sure the rear wheels didn't lock up.
Also in physological point of view having no ABS does make you plan ahead more, I think there is too much danger with ESP, ABS etc etc to drive badly expecting the computers to kick in but as we know form my friends accident they cannot stop human stupidity. Her car was fitted with all the latest traction gadgets yet she still lost control at jusy 60mph and flipped it over. If she was driving a car with no safety features I doubt she would have gone so fast into that bend!
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I get the gist of what you're saying, Rattle but on what authoritative facts are you basing the assumption that it's easier to stop at 30mph "straightly" without ABS than at 60mph without? I'm not sure what you mean by 'straightly' but you will be aware that one of the benefits of ABS is that it allows you to maintain a course (not necessarily a straight one) whilst braking and without the wheels locking. The fact that you, commendably, performed a controlled emergency stop yourself recently doesn't, in itself, provide a sound basis for assuming that you were better off without ABS. Have you, in fact, had experience of the functions in question yourself over a period of time? The question of whether these driving 'aids' lead a driver to a false sense of security is valid but ultimately safe driving, or otherwise, is primarily in the hands of the driver and if the driver is able to drive safely in the knowledge that the 'aids' may assist in case of extreme need whilst not routinely relying on them is, I feel, a worthy objective. The other incident you refer to involving your friend doesn't, I fear, prove anything except that your friend wasn't in control of her car and if indeed she was relying on the'gadgets' to keep her out of trouble then she has a lot to learn. How old is she? Maybe if she's young and not been driving too long she would benefit from some advanced instruction in order to make the most of her vehicle and achieve safe enjoyment of her driving and hopefully prevent a re-occurrence.
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>>and made sure the rear wheels didn't lock up.
No you didn't, the car did - by design. If you're going to lock any wheels up, it will be the fronts.
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Decent training and testing of drivers ought to eliminate the need for these new fangled gizmos.
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I'll believe that to be true when my car has four brake pedals to allow me to brake all four wheels separately, and when biotechnology has allowed me to grow an extra pair of legs to operate them.
Until then, at least on the public road when I may or may not be paying as much attention as I should be at any given second in a long journey, I'll believe the accident statistics and think that ESP is a good idea.
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ive only needed abs once and boy was i glad it worked
its the only time in my life i seriously thought i was going to shunt a car into a main dual carriageway
it was somewhere near dundee
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Never had a car with ABS or ESP. I've owned cars with 400 brake at the rear wheels, front discs like milk bottle tops and rear drums the size of toothbrush mugs and never had a problem. There's no substitute for SMOVC IMHO
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There's no substitute for SMOVC IMHO
FAB captain
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When I provoked ABS on wet cobbles in a new car it worked. When I slowed down gently on a damp slope in Spain a couple of years ago in an old one it, er, didn't.
ESP? You mean LSD by transistor? Do me a whassername favour.
Edited by Lud on 15/04/2009 at 23:58
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I've seen mine flash into action once in three years
You've really not been trying hard enough, have you.
I try to get the DSC on my daily driver to light up once every day or so - but perhaps that's just Cumbrian roads for you :)
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I think mandatory ESP is a good thing. Sure, you might never use it, but you may never use your airbags either.
But in the day when for some folks you do need them to save your life, it'll be worthwhile.
It's not like ESP is a massively complex addition to a modern car anyway, it's mostly software using the existing ABS hardware a little more intelligently. No big deal.
The EuroNCAP website used to have a video clip where they demonstrated otherwise identical FWD and RWD cars cornering hard with and without ESP. It's quite striking how the non-ESP cars almost flung themselves off the corner, whilst the ESP cars just hung on without any fuss.
Sure, for good drivers who would a) be unlikely to make such a mistake and b) be able to correct it without difficultly then ESP is pointless. The reality is that few drivers are that good.
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I suspect though that while aids like ESP and ABS do make it easier for most drivers to attain the naximum breaking and cornering performance from their cars a lot of drivers do not realise that the laws of physics still apply.
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Yes, but the electronic aids are there to stop the limits of grip being exceeded, which is just the thing for those that are unaware of physics!
Edited by TheOilBurner on 16/04/2009 at 13:36
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Yes, the wheels are still turning when the scenery is assaulted.
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I have to agree with Rattle, the last car that I had that had ABS was my Laguna, and everytime it snowed it just made things worse as soon as i pressed the peddle it would kick in and it just didnt feel right, In one instance i was only doing 10mph in the snow and as soon as pressed the peddle it kicked in and made me slide into a footpath! to miss the car infront, i feel a lot more safer in my Astra that doesnt have it.
Although if used correctly (im not sure i was though) the aids are nice there is no subsitute for skill, which i fear is been removed with all the aids that you get.
Then was the constant problems that my Laguna gave with ABS faults that would not go away after regular trips to the garage, it all just turned into a headache. the Astra does not have it, so its one less thing to go wrong.
My Cavalier did not have ABS, and that with its fat tyres was terrifying to drive in the wet, i just had to be carefull and I managed ok
my Girlfriends C4 has ESP, i fail to see when we have used it but it came with the car so heyho :-)
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Of all the things which go wrong on modern cars ABS (and ESP) are way down the list. Very few older cars get scrapped because of ABS faults. Usually it is only a sensor on one wheel which causes ABS to fail - failure of the main ABS pump is rare.
It is the increasing complexity of anti-pollution systems made necessary by new emissions legislation which is likely to reduce the practical life of cars not ESP.
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ABS .. and everytime it snowed it just made things worse as soon as i pressed the peddle it would kick in and it just didnt feel right In one instance i was only doing 10mph in the snow and as soon as pressed the peddle it kicked in and made me slide into a footpath! to miss the car infront i feel a lot more safer in my Astra that doesnt have it.
I've had similar experiences in snow.
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Yes, many drivers attain maximum breaking on corners, I should think.
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Having owned two Imprezza turbos, one of which had its ESP disabled, then personally I can say I hate it, certainly in the way in which it was set up in the Imprezza.
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Rattle - as NC said, the rear wheels should never lock, no matter how hard you stand on the brake pedal, also, you mention stopping in a straight line, this is *not* the point of ABS. The reason ABS is fitted is to allow you to stop at the same time as steering around the obstacle, this is otherwise only possibe with cadence braking which although I can do, it's not easy.
ABS has saved me from one accident recently, I cut into a gap in the queue on the A19 in my MG but the road surface was wetter than I expected and I soon realised that I was going to hit the car in front. The ABS cut in and rather than sliding into the car I steered around it to the left and came to a stop level with it's rear passengers with one wheel on the verge. Fabulous fun.
The point is, this sort of accident could occur with a similar lapse in judgement in any car being used on a dual carriageway. Likewise, it could happen when a child/dog runs in front of you in any car at 30mph in a city, I'd far rather steer around something than skid into it.
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This is similar to what happened to me Blue {P} .
I was on a normal road in scotland (if such a thing exists seeing as they are speed control mad) and i started going round a right hand bend and all of a sudden i was confronted by a parked car and a dual carriegway,ive never seen such a stupid junction in all my years of driving and without the abs there wasnt time for cadence braking ,it was foot hard down on the brake pedal and i managed to pull the car down the side of the parked car,my abs never worked in the snow as im normally a very light driver and cant even remember wearing a set of pads out in my life.
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bellboy/Blue.....You have both added emphasis to the points I was trying (perhaps unsuccessfully) to make to Rattle in my responses to him earlier up the thread. I would have liked a reply from Rattle - the points in hand are serious ones and we are all entitled to an opinion - but I feel strongly enough about it to maintain interest. I think he is mistaken in his views particularly regarding ABS and also feel quite strongly about his friend losing control of a ton of metal and the blame seemingly being put on technology.
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I think he is mistaken in his views particularly regarding ABS and also feel quite strongly about his friend losing control of a ton of metal and the blame seemingly being put on technology.
The reason ABS is fitted is to allow you to stop at the same time as steering around the obstacle,
At last.. the nail has been hit on the head!
there are far too many people who dont understand what these 'driving aids' actually do!
You ask any number of drivers what ABS does, and far too many will say ''reduces braking distance''
if only it did !
ESP - that can help prevent accidents, of that Im sure, but how many accidents are caused by people driving beyond their (and the cars/tyres) limits, because they 'know' that the car will stick to the road with ESP's help, only to find that a pool of diesel / mud / ice overrides the help given, and the laws of physics come into play?
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Not many, few know either what ESP is, or if they have it fitted.
As you know, it's there to stop regular drivers from coming off the road when they mis-judge a bend.
Anybody who intentionally uses ESP to reach the limits of grip and then gets caught out is just as likely to be the kind of driver to over-cook it without ESP!
An idiot is an idiot with or without electronic devices that reign in the excesses...
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