I am quite sure that on of the major factors in RTA where opposing vehicles are involved in a collision is the general inability of some drivers to realise that if you are going past someone doing 65mph and someone else is coming the other way also doing 65 you will be travelling at 75/80 just to get by.
The combined closing speed with the oncoming vehicle will be 145mph. Awful lot of road being covered at that speed and the distance soon disappears leaving the idiot in the wrong place at the wrong time at the wrong speed.
Happy motoring Phil I "better late than the late"
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Saw exactly the same thing last weekend travelling to Chatsworth.
A row of about 6 cars travelling on a nice bit of derbyshire road.A Ford Escort decides to come blatting past the lot of us.Up ahead the road is rising slightly to a brow and a left hand bend.This guy JUST makes it back to the left hand side before another guy coming the other way at speed crests the brow.I reckon he was less than a second away from possible death.
Will he be so lucky next time ?
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Midlifecrisis. I don't wish to 'divert' your thread but may I ask;-
1. Did any of these accidents occur at known 'black spots'?
2. If 'Yes', were there any speed cameras at the locations?
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Given what I saw last night and witness most days I think there is a common factor in these incidents - young men ! The worst examples of this sort of 'driving' are nearly always due to boy racers who like to live out their immature and highly dangerous fantasies on public roads. Last night having had a meal out my wife and I walked the length of Orpington High Street. In the space of less than 10 minutes we witnessed 2 cars (both packed with mindless and probably drunken morons) driven along the high street at speeds of at least 60mph, recklessly overtaking other vehicles and ignoring the various pedestrian crossings. Worse still both of them drove straight over a major roundabout/junction without even touching their brakes. One of the vehicles then proceeded to overtake a car and a bus forcing oncoming traffic to take swift evasive action. The time ?? 11.30 ?, pub closing ??? no it was 9.45pm ! The sad thing for me is that often when these idiots are involved in accidents it's not them who are killed/maimed but innocent road users and pedestrians. We really do ave to toughen up our laws and punishments for these offences - causing death in this manner is akin to manslaughter in my view.
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None of the collisions (we're not allowed to call them accidents now), happened at blackspots. As a hater of fixed speed cameras I am fortunate that my force does not believe in fixed cameras (at the moment) and so there are none in existance.
Two of the incidents were down to speed and poor overtaking, the others are just plain poor driving. Ages ranged from 23 years to 71 years. There's no common factor, other than devastated families.
Last night I stopped an 18 year old driving a Renault 5GT Turbo through a built up area, at 11pm, after driving at 78mph. Shortly after my battenburg marked car was nearly wiped out by a middle aged woman driving straight out of a junction. She stated she didn't see me and wasn't aware she had to give way at that point. The general point is bad driving is common to all ages. The more worrying thing is that the 18 year old admitted it was a fair cop, the woman couldn't accept she had done anything wrong. "If I didn't see you, I can't be expected to stop."
I still enjoy driving, but when it comes to that 50/50 overtake, I just take a breath and decide to wait. There's always a safe oppotunity ahead.
Keep shiny side up.
MLC
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"As a hater of fixed speed cameras I am fortunate that my force does not believe in fixed cameras (at the moment) and so there are none in existance."
Wow! Where is your force? Northumbria aren't too bad but there still seem to be a few, despite the fact that since introducing them as the main and only accident reduction tool used in the force, the accident levels have gone up! :(
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This guy JUST makes it backto the left hand side before another guy coming the other way at speed crests the brow.I reckon he was less than a second away from possible death.
Bernie, a few years back, I was almost killed by one of the mindless ones - overtaking on a long, sweeping, but blind corner, in a mountain cutting.
It was early Sunday am, and very little on the road.
He, in a red minibus, was passing a truck, I was coming towards them.
I saw the clown, realised I had nowhere to go, as we were in a cutting, and stood (literally) on the brakes. He cut in, almost hitting the truck with his back end, and swept past me - leaving a red smear on the door mirror. Inches away from death? Try less than a milimetre...
I stopped, got out the car, and was violently ill.
The driver of the truck did likewise.
He just kept going.
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Toad my biking mantra:
Space, space and more space, plus always try to have a way out.
Someone takes your space, fall back till you get it back,
For me that epitomises the riding task.
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So, not many suggestions as to how we prevent these dreadful accidents.
Using the fatal involving the child at the earlier Hit and Run Update post, then accept that like us all when
we start a journey there is no intention of ever being involved in an accident.
In driving off with the brakes shot (WRONG CONDITION) initially there was nothing on the road (RIGHT TIME) so an accident does not occur despite a high potential.
However if the vehicle/driver condition is good (RIGHT CONDITION) and pedestrian steps out (WRONG TIME)brakes work ,car stops, no accident.
Further it is obvious that if we have RIGHT CONDITION and RIGHT TIME then there cannot be an accident other than an Act of God..
But if the brakes are duff (WRONG CONDITION) and pedestrian steps onto the road (WRONG TIME) then inevitable that there is going to be an accident.
Now equate WRONG CONDITION not only to the vehicle but also to driver defect through illness/drink/tiredness with WRONG TIME as inappropriate speed/ road hazard /feature and what should emerge is a formula for safe driving.
How do we achieve it?
By we, as drivers, trying our level best to ensure that the RIGHT CONDITION and TIME apply in adjusting our driving habits through correct vehicle maintenance/awareness observations and speed. Coupled with this the three 'E's' Engineering (roads,signs and vehicles), Education (Driver competency and awareness) Enforcement(self explanatory and the very last resort).
It would appear in all these areas we are failing so accidents continue. Am I wrong?
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The closest I have ever come to being written off was by a Police car going through a red light late at night. I was on green going across the cross roads and he missed me by a whisker. Didn't stop either!
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Im NOT Police bashing but I was watching Hot Persuits on tv the other night about Police in Scotland and the Borders chasing cars driven erractically.
I rather got the impression many of the police drivers saw themselves as 'Starsky and Hutch' types. All that happened was that car chases went onfor miles and miles and miles.
And yet, most police forces now have a chopper to call on although to be fair to the Scottish forces there is onlyone for the whole of Scotland based in Glasgow.
Most 'chases' shown on these shows end with the chopper over the people getting out of cars and legging it and the police actuallycatching them on foot! So why bother with the high speed chase?
I gather many American police forces now do not chase cars and instead rely on observations from choppers to catch the crims.
I know the ploice are in a difficult position on this issue but you tend to think IF they didn't persue so hard and fast, maybe the drivers wouldn't drive so dangerously?
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So somebody did watch that programme. I expected a load of comments.
Highlighted the impossible position of plod in Joe Public wanting scroats caught but do not chase them. Emphasis not in condeming the action of the scroat for taking but Senna Plod for chasing.
Very mixed messages coming at a time when it has just been announced that you can be caught with a Class A Drug (at the moment)not arrested and given a street warning until the third time when they will be arrested and guess what - given an Official warning. No wonder Plod takes his bat home.
Two things from the programme that got my back up and smacks at poor editing:
1. Did you ever see a more dirtier driver's window on the police car? How he ever saw out beats me - should have had Mark's snipper.
2. The speeder - road perfectly straight for miles, not one single other vehicle on it and they pull and FPN the driver for 70 on a 60 stretch. Not in my day, never. Sack the PR bloke.
DVD
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I understand Engineering, Education and Enforcement, but HOW do you educate when the majority of drivers do not WANT education?
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I see near-miss overtaking incidents all the time, doing a large mileage mainly on single carriageway A-roads.
I always think, why do they do it? Just how important or brilliant a person are they to think that 5 minutes saved on a journey time is worth the risk?
It is tempting to follow the line of thought that maybe overtaking on single carriageway roads should simply be banned. But then of course there are some really slow drivers, tractors, etc to be passed, and there are some safe stretches of road, and there are some safe drivers.
One particulary dangerous thing it seems to me is follow-on overtaking. The first car takes a certain risk, but the one behind blindly follows on, driving a few feet behind.
Surely it is always potentially dangerous to begin to overtake before the car in front has completed its overtaking?
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Recently I've seen a flood of people overtaking into blind bends. This morning a Merc pulle dout of a row of stationary traffic on the M23 into my lane. Luckily I never pass traffic with massive speed differentials and was ready - although it nearly stopped my heart. [1]
The fundamental problem is that the police simply aren't interested in dangerous drivers. That would me effort and paperwork.
I'm willing to bet that detection rates for dangerous driving have not improved in line with prosecutions for speeding.
If the time spent on discouraging speeding drives was diverted to dangerous drivers the world would be a bette place.
Lets face it most seriously dangerous driving is done at low speed. Pulling out in front of someone is done at about 5mph. A blind overtake on an NSL single carriageway deosn't always require excess speed.
[1] In fact this would be a good time for one of the die hard anti speed t*ssers to explain to me why 70mph would have been acceptable in that situation? A classic example of a case where blind adherance to limits woud have been fatal.
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Parp, Parp!
Note: All Toad posts come with an implied smiley.
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Cliff
Part of the problem is poor road design.
How many of the single carriageway A roads that you use have any provision for overtaking: precious few, I bet.
You can get stuck behind a slow vehicle for 10 or 15 miles on occasions.
A typical example is a road I use every day which is about 10 miles between roundabouts, some (not very sharp) bends and a mixture of cars, lorries and farm vehicles with. Result: a fatal about once a year.
Building in a few hundred yards of dual carriageway every three of four miles, signposting its existence well in advance, removes some of the temptation to do a suicide overtake and would save lives at an affordable cost.
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Brian W,
I agree totally with your suggestion. Such lanes on the A423 Guildford to Broadbridge Heath Road would save several lives a year but it won't happen because new roads BAD no roads GOOD. Plus unless unusually lenghty you would need to accelerate hard to pass before the dualing ended and where do you think Plod would put the camera?
Example A43 Silverstone to Brackley. Notorious death road as virtually impossible to overtake and undulating over long stretches so (if you didn't know the road) it appeared clear until the car came out of the dip at you.
Now being dualed (to save the Grand Prix) but previously had one short stretch of dual carriage way just outside Silverstone where you could pass safely. Where was the speed camera (both sides)?
I accept that individual policeman care but their bosses are politicians who will parrot any line to gain promotion.
Incidentally I have read a piece that says the public are becoming more hostile to policeman and refusing to co-operate in most matters. Hmm...
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Perhaps hard-hitting roadside signs regularly updated with the number of fatalities at this sort of black spot would help convince drivers that injudicious overtaking kills people. I've seen signs with speeding fine figures on them and they don't half slow people down !! I still think that most people feel 'safe' in their nice quiet, warm cars and don't realise that having a head on at just 30mph is like running into a brick wall at 60 ! This is why you see so many people not wearing seat belts - they just don't realise how fast their bodies are actually travelling. There does also seem to me to be a difference between those mindless morons who deliberately drive dangerously for kicks (knowing full well what they are doing) and those who on a given day at a given time, perhaps because they're late for work or something, make a single error of judgement which winds up killing them and/or someone else. The former need to be caught/taken off the road and the latter re-educated.
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When I was kid in UK they did use to have "Accident Blackspot" of the kind you mention. A big round black spot on a cream background as I recall, in some cases with figures appended.
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You don't get those nowdays, but you can count the number of locations where bunches of flowers are tied to railings and lamp posts instead.
The wrecks seem to get cleared away quite quickly once the accident investigators have finished their work. However, it always makes me think as I go past one before it's been cleared up. I suppose leaving them there would upset the friends and relatives too much, though.
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I understand Engineering, Education and Enforcement, but HOW do you educate when the majority of drivers do not WANT education?
Simple. Punishiment should be replaced by education.
I've had 4 motoring convictions over the years therefore I must be one of the worst drivers on the road. Rather than take measures to try and lose me my job the system should send me on a driving course to make me change my dangerous ways.
Ditto every other motorist convicted.
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Parp, Parp!
Note: All Toad posts come with an implied smiley.
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What have YOU done to "change your dangerous ways"?
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TP:What have YOU done to "change your dangerous ways"?
All I've done is rideouts and observed runs with the IAM. That clearly *doesn't* address the dangerousness of my driving in any way at all. I'm still slower than the limit where potential hazards could present themselves and faster than the limit outside of 30's and 40's provided it's safe and clear. And by definition if *I* thought I was doing something dangerous I'd stop doing it. That's why I need a court appointed bloke to tell me why I should have rammed at 70 the guy who pulled out of stationary traffic into my lane this morning, but not done 95 on the motorway on Sunday.
...and compulsory eye tests wouldn't go amiss either.
ChrisR:
Hey with 4 convictions what do you expect? I'm clearly a renegade, an outlaw. You wouldn't start whineing about Dennis Neilsons attitude would you? And he's only been to court once!!!
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Parp, Parp!
Note: All Toad posts come with an implied smiley.
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So you reckon reeducation would be just as effective for wild-eyed renegade outlaw commuters like you as for Dennis Nielson (sp?), eh? My money's on the reformed psychopath ;-)
Chris
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So you reckon reeducation would be just as effective for wild-eyed renegade outlaw commuters like you as for Dennis Nielson (sp?), eh? My money's on the reformed psychopath ;-)
Not Nielson then! ;-)
Seriously though. If I'm a burglar I get education all sorts of help from social workers. Is speeding *that* much worse than burglary?
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Parp, Parp!
Note: All Toad posts come with an implied smiley.
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Simple really, Toad.
If you re-offend a s a burglar you cost the system money.
If you re-offend as a speeder you make the system money.
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If you know you need reeducation, and your job depends on it, why don't you take the initiative? Maybe you're hoping to use it as a defence some time: "Sorry officer, I'm a terrible driver, I know, but the state should have reeducated me, and didn't, so it's not my fault."
You have the British Disease, and no mistaking, my son.
Chris
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ChrisR (and others tempted by Toad to reply):
By now it should be apparent to most backroomers that Toad likes to "bait" people. He regularly starts new threads hoping to entice people to bite. The best response to his posts is to ignore them.
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"As a hater of fixed speed cameras I am fortunate that my force does not believe in fixed cameras (at the moment) and so there are none in existance."
Wow! Where is your force? Northumbria aren't too bad but there still seem to be a few, despite the fact that since introducing them as the main and only accident reduction tool used in the force, the accident levels have gone up! :(
*Sorry I posted this twice, I;m just getting the hang of the way this particular forum works*
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Worcestershire. Unfortunately we're surrounded by Gloucester and the West Mids, who have loads of the damn things.
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MLC
As a Worcestershire resident I'd like to see the police be more proactive in traffic/driving matters. The nutters round here (bikers and car drivers) seem to think they're free to commit all manner of violations. I reckon about a third don't wear seat belts, about 90% ignore speed limits and a small but dangerous proportion carry out suicide-type overtaking stunts. They do it because you rarely see a police car, there are no speed cameras, and there is little in the way of traffic calming.
I was overtaken the other day on the the brow of a hill, with traffic coming the other way, by a biker who went down the centre line at about 70mph on his back wheel! Just approaching the 40mph limit which, unsurprisingly, he didn't slow down for! MLC, they're just taking the p***
Don't take it personally, I'm sure the police are understaffed, but there must be something that can be done to moderate driver behaviour.
Pat
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mlc
Hey up, another Worcs resident when in UK.
Any advice on measured mile/half mile locations please?
There must be a few handy for Hindlip HQ.
A few I reckon I've spotted
M5 J6-J7??
A449 west bound from M5-J6??
A456 0.5 mile on the straight bit near Ribbesford (Bewdley)
A451 0.5 mile past Clent?
Are these OK to use and accurate. Just like to keep an up to date check running.
thanks for any advice,
FiF
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Aw, come on. This is more banter than baiting. There are others who bait, though they've eased off recently.
Chris
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Apologies, everyone - well * nearly* everyone! - the preceding post of course should not have appeared here, but in the Technical thread on "Running new pads in" where I have reposted it, notleast to save Mark doing so.
Jack
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I firmly believe that the key to safer driving is observation.
If you can observe the road conditions, layout and the speed and direction of other traffic you can react in time.
The most common "excuse" for an accident must be "Sorry, I didn't see you".
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