Heard a tale this weekend about a driver receiving a fixed £30 penalty for an incorrect rear reg plate on his Rover 75. It is one of those ' half shell " shaped ones. Although the lettering is correct size and spaced correctly and the plate inc makers details, kite mark, it seems that only the regulation oblong or square plates are legal. Off the top of my head, some of the S type Jags I have seen have had a plate shaped to fit the plate mounting area on the back, ie sort of oval.
Looks like these style of plates are relegated to show plates only now.
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www.dvla.gov.uk/media/pdf/leaflets/v796.pdf
Nothing here about the shape of plates. Minimum margins are specified, so maybe this was the problem.
Does sound like a tall story though?
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They have had the plate back to the MOT station that passed it and they are happy with it as meeting the current requirements for an MOT pass. Just spoken to my dad who golfs with the bloke concerned and he confirms that shape was the issue.
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Where did you hear this 'tale'? Was it is the Daily Mail? This link sugests that an offence has been committed but is it that important?Actually gives permitted dimensions, may be ut of date.
tinyurl.com/aljow8
Edited by Armitage Shanks {p} on 10/03/2009 at 09:39
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Judging by that link, then it would appear correct that shaped plates are not legal . They only mention oblong and square.
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If the shaped plate passed the MOT how can it be illegal? More stupid niff naff and trivia for motorists to plough thru while the country goes down the pan!
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tinyurl.com/2tzbpg
Nothing excluding shaped plates but the again, nothing allowing them.
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More stupid niff naff and trivia for motorists to plough thru while the country goes down the pan!
>>
So are you suggesting that while the country (the world?) is in a financial crisi all non- financial legislation should be suspended?
To be re-introduced when the country is out of the financial crisis?
My word! what a good idea! ;-)
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I didn't phrase that too well but I didn't want to say "Haven't they got anything better to do?" - so I won't!!!!
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Just thought. I have seen Ford Focus's with shaped plates as well.
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I can see that these would not be recognised by ANPR software as being a plate because of the way it looks for strip-shaped reflective objects in the infra-red spectrum. Does the plate have the BSAU markings?
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AS far as I can gather, it is a correct plate in every way but the shape.
If a car is roaring past theses cameras, how does it make its mind up quick enough to distinguish between an oblong and a square plate then ?. A shaped plate will sit in the same position as an ordinary plate with the letters in the same area. Another thought. What about those Alfas with the plate to one side on the front. Legal ?
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"how does it make its mind up quick enough to distinguish between an oblong and a square plate then"
It doesn't get past the first stage if not an oblong (or maybe a square but they didn't used to be able to read 4x4-style square ones) . An infra-red camera with infra-red luminaires placed very close to the lens looks at the road. The camera only sees with any clarity reflective objects, or those which are a source of infra-red (such as brake lights) at just below visible red spectrum.
The software examines each frame for oblong reflective objects which are roughly within proportions to the number-plates in the country of use. The software then segments the plate into characters and then passes this to OCR module which reads the characters. This is then usually corroborated with a database of issued registrations or possible registrations. D is often mistaken for Q or O so the software may decipher a plate as O848TRC and corroborate it with DVLA as being D848TRC.
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Thecamera only sees with any clarity reflective objects
I was interested in Hams excellent technical post about plates. Does this mean that my two vehicles with black and aluminium plates would not trigger an ANPR ? I asked a Road Patrol officer a couple of years ago if they would fire up a speed camera and he said, ' generally they would.'
Ted
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AFAIK speed cameras are triggered by motion so you would trigger a speed cam. I don't know of it could automatically read the number plate - I suspect not - but they do use sophisticated image enhancing technology(such as the human eye!!) to decipher ones they really want to read.
I suspect ANPR cameras would not recognise your plates. The recognition software would depend on quite the stark contrasts of black on yellow/white. Which is why they like us all to use the same font, size, layout etc. (Some time ago I was told that plates with two rows - like on the back of m/bikes - cannot be read - but I suspect things may have come on a bit since then)
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A lot of Land Rovers have square plates with two rows. Have seen Disco's stopped at ANPR check points.
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A lot of Land Rovers have square plates with two rows. Have seen Disco's stopped at ANPR check points.
could that be because the cameras didnt read them, so the police pulled them 'just in case'?
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>>If the shaped plate passed the MOT how can it be illegal?
Very easily. The MOT isn't a complete legality check, any more than it's a thorough roadworthines check. It's just an inspection against a list of criteria - there's no claim of completeness or immunity from prosecution.
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So long as the plate has the correct spaceing and font etc it's legal, look up low profile plates (a fad brought about by the new rules) which only have the letters and small amount of plastic around them. Still legal.
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The trouble is, the law itself doesn't seem to know the rules half the time and is any one going to bother wasting time and money in the courts, trying to get a £30 fixed penalty cancelled, even when it's wrongly issued ?
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Heard a tale this weekend about a driver receiving a fixed £30 penalty for an incorrect rear reg plate on his Rover 75. >>
Who issued the penalty?
Can it not be contested?
The Police are NOT infallible, did your tale teller NOT know?
It does sound like a "real" tall tale.
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Merseyside Police.
I for one would not waste my valuable time and a good deal of money attempting to sort out this matter. You any idea how much it would cost for a couple of hours of a solicitors time to take this matter through the legal system ?
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I for one would not waste my valuable time and a good deal of money attempting to sort out this matter. You any idea how much it would cost for a couple of hours of a solicitors time to take this matter through the legal system ? >>
But you are happy to use your valuable time waste people's time on this forum.
Who said you need to see a solicitor?
If you try to use your time to do some research [btw - not from the Daily Mail], you would find that there are ways to resolve the issue of this tale without recourse to solicitors and without wasting too much time or money. But I guess some people like being spoon fed.
To paraphrase Lord Mandy or David Byrne [talking heads], who said it recently, "people are too lazy".
Chill out man. Fishing for carp is a good way to relax.
I got hooked, despite warnings from Old Navy, BobbyG, bhoy wonder, Andrew-T, et al.
Edited by jbif on 10/03/2009 at 11:06
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I came on this forum to
1. Alert people to a potential problem with shaped plates
2. Discover whether it was something others had experience of
3. Pass my own comments.
Edited by PoloGirl on 10/03/2009 at 20:20
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1. Alert people to a potential problem with shaped plates .. >>
To be honest, going by the perceived views of your "form" by many on this forum, it seems more like scaremongering to me. ;-)
Edited by PoloGirl on 10/03/2009 at 20:21
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I am not aware of the whole scope of the MOT but I am suprised that, if a car fails for an incorrect typeface and/or letter spacing on a reg plate it can't be failed for shape, assuming that the shape is actually illegal, which no one seems to be 100% sure of.
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The safest answer would appear to be... if the DVLA doesn't say you can have it, then assume you can't
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www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/story/Illegal-licence-pla...2
Some surprising, to me , stats in this Fleetnews item
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Fleetnews may be another title for the Daily Wail! E sure claims that 3.7 million motorists have, or would consider, tampering with their plates to befuddle cameras. How many people did they ask, to come to that conclusion? My guess is about 500 and then they extrapolated the answers across the owners of every vehicle in UK! This is not stats - it is shoot in the dark guesswork, probably
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>>This is not stats - it is shoot in the dark guesswork, probably
>>
I agree. I fogot to add the :-)
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Excellent Henry :-)))). Item in the Torygraph today that MOT test stations are to crackdown on illegal plates so that motorists cannot bamboozle cameras etc. If it is the law already why is a crackdown needed? The people I know who have illegal plates have 2 sets - a proper one for the MOT once a year and a dodgy one for the rest of the year
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Interesting - they introduced a stricter registration plate check a few years ago and it was withdrawn fairly quickly tinyurl.com/ccqc6e (VOSA)
Item 20 SUSPENSION OF CERTAIN REGISTRATION PLATE CHECKS (SN 10 - 2007)
Special Notice 8 - 2007 introduced additional checks to number plates and due to technical reasons some of these are being temporarily suspended. From receipt of this Special Notice the following items must not be used to fail a vehicle presented for test.
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I take it that you are a Guardian reader AS, as you seem to disaprove of the best selling broadsheet and best selling quality tabloid.
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I have spent a good few hours this afternoon, ploughing through the internet and yet I can't find anything what so ever to rule shaped plates either in or out. Wouldn't you think that they would have been given some consideration during the drafting of the regulations, after all, they exist in many forms.
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quality tabloid.
Best oxymoron I've heard of since "military intelligence".
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At least you do not get $133 fine and that is when you have proper font, spacing etc.
The link below includes a video explaining it.
Those visiting the US of A beware because very very few would be aware of this..
tinyurl.com/b3jxsl
Lots of options for increasing the funds for Gordons empty piggy bank. :-((
Edited by henry k on 10/03/2009 at 17:26
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I don' t think one can draw any conclusions, from my posts, as to what paper I read. It certainly is not the Guardian and the words Quality and Tabloid are mutually exclusive!
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Shaped plates as this are technically illegal under the RVL regs, (Road Vehicle Licensing) the shape is defined in this. Up until now if a true story the police used some grey matter, previously known as discression, but down to the modern method of policing driven by targets, to prove you are working, as previously discussed in other threads, discression is quickly disappearing. Was there other factors such as illegal lettering?
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if they are illegal, then why and how did the manufacturer get away with fitting them - its like buying a car and then saying it fails a mot becasue the lights arnt the right height from the floor (lose example)
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Mr X 10.46am>>I for one would not waste my valuable time and a good deal of money attempting to sort out this matter.
Fair enough. However, you are prepared to waste your valuable time ploughing through the 'net on the same point. At least it doesn't cost you anything.
Mr X 16.30>>I have spent a good few hours this afternoon, ploughing through the internet
Edited by PoloGirl on 10/03/2009 at 20:17
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It's not the manufacturer that fits them it's the garage/owners.
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My trawl through the internet was an attempt to find a definitive answer to the issue raised .
Time and time again it is made clear that ignorance of the law is no excuse when it comes to motoring rules and regs and that ultimately , it is the responsibility of the driver to make sure they are with in all boundaries , rules and regulations.
How can you do that when there are grey areas with no answers ?
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Never mind researching the answer, did you find a definitive version of the question?
Trouble with these press/pub stories is that , even if true, they only concentrate on the highlights and not the wider picture.
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Grief... this was not a press / pub story. It was told to me by my dad who had just left the bloke concerned. Oldish bloke who has no axe to grind . He was just taken aback by the fact that the plate is not legal because of its shape, even though all the information needed on a plate is contained on it. I wasn't aware that plate shape was a fixed penalty offence, neither was my dad or the bloke concerned. So I put the info to you to see if any one could shed any light.
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This may hold a clue:
www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2001/uksi_20010561_en.pdf
Road Vehicles (Display of Registration Marks) Regulations 2001.
The site has just crashed but I was reading a paragraph towards the end, after the diagrams of plates, that stated that if a vehicle constructed to EU regs had a plate mounting area not conforming to the typical plate then a plate could be used suitable for that mounting. That's my interpretation anyway and I thought I had read something similar before on the subject.
Sorry I can't be more specific, as I say the site has crashed.
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Its up and running again.
Page 25 para (b) refers:
(b) Provision making it lawful (where it would hitherto have been unlawful) for rear
plates to be fixed in the space provided on vehicles constructed in accordance with the
requirements of relevant EC type-approval directives(a) and to be lit in a manner
provided for in those directives. These Regulations implement those directives to that
extent. (See regulations 5 and 9.)
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