Hi all. I'm thinking about lowering my peugeot 405 (1993 SRDT) by about 30mm. I've read that I should be ok keeping the existing shocks and just fitting the new springs... is this correct?
Also, how easy is it to change the springs front and back?
Cheers, Neil.
Edited by Pugugly on 24/01/2009 at 19:32
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rear is not a DIY job. Why do it ? put some dosh aside so that when the drive shafts fail & the gear box diff bearings fail due to the extra stress of running at a different angle at least you will be prepared. They are also prone to catching the sump so you should put a good split in it once its lowered.
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I would've thought that after fifteen years of lugging around that diesel engine, the fronts would be shorter than original spec anyway.
Why on earth would you want to lower an old diesel?
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I'm with Injection doc on this. In addition you are going to bottom the car out just before the drive shafts fall apart due to mis-alignment. And you will have to inform your insurance company and that will raise a few eyebrows, and the cost. Regards Peter
Edited by Peter D on 21/01/2009 at 20:08
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I reckon the the 405 td is one of the best value cars on the market - please dont ruin it!
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There's an easier alternative tinyurl.com/9cfqd :oP
Surely the point is an old car is still being used, rather than scrapped, does it matter how daft it looks?
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gosh - what a lot of quick, enthusiastic replies! thankyou all. i've been enjoying messing around with this lovely 405 SRDT. the turbo packs quite a punch and it feels very zippy to me...sporty even.
so i bought some nice gutmann alloys and did a few other things to jazz it up. looks great but i was just playing with the idea of dropping it by 30mm or so. i've seen suspension kits that seem quite easy to install, although your comments make me wonder if it would be a complete disaster!
so would changing the just front springs mess up the engine? 30mm?
cheers, neil.
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>>so i bought some nice gutmann alloys and did a few other things to jazz it up.
How did that affect your insurance premium?
You did tell them didn't you?
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thanx for your question. the new wheels are 15"...how does that affect my insurance and why? it's on 55 tyres so wheel diameter is still the same...
neil.
Edited by Neil34 on 22/01/2009 at 13:21
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>>how does that affect my insurance and why?
Simply because you have made a modification - it's your responsibility to inform your insurer - they *might* be OK with the modification, they may ask for an extra premium, but, your duty to inform the insurer remains.
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Insurance,
when I fitted 17" alloys to a mk3 mondeo, to replace the 16" steel wheels,
I had the LX model and fitted ford ghia alloys, the profile of the tyre was lower and resulted in the same rolling road radius. I informed my insurance company who loaded me 10%,
on a previous car a ford puma (pre-kids) I had the windows tinted (not a really dark tint, it was legal) the insurance company loaded me 5%.
as far as they're concerned any deviation away from standard is a modifcation and therefore increases the chances of things getting pinched. hence increase in premium.
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oh springs.....2 old work mates had suzuki swift gti's and both just fitted springs and kept the standard dampers.....big mistake ,,,,yep it looked good but handling was very poor. in the end they BOTH replaced the spring and dampers. (spax in Bicester, just up the road from me....are worth a try)
PAUL.
EX- 205 AND 306 OWNER
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when I fitted 17" alloys to a mk3 mondeo to replace the 16" steel wheels I had the LX model and fitted ford ghia alloys the profile of the tyre was lower and resulted in the same rolling road radius. I informed my insurance company who loaded me 10%
I actually wouldn't have bothered in this case, given that 17" "Ghia" alloys were an extra cost factory option on the Mondeo LX when new, and could well have come on the car from the factory.
Unless of course insurers require you to specify options as well. Third party alloys are a different matter.
Cheers
DP
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HI dp.
YEH I thought the same as you,,,,as covered by "ford insure" at the time, and even though i told them i was changing to a ford alloy wheel they said that as i was replacing a steel wheel with an alloy it was a modifcation....
i then mentioned that i'd added mudflaps and carmats....not factory fitment....and she went and checked on her "list" and said as there low cost there ok!!!!! i meant it as a joke......oh dear!!!!
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you've got to think that if anything happens to your car and you need to make a claim that the insurance company will try and get out of handing out the cash,,,,after all if a 17 year old has fitted £600 alloys from the gti model to his 106 1.1 its going to make the car if not just the wheels more attractive to the local scum bags.
.
even the stereo is a issue,,,,my insurance policy (zurick) says that if i change the stereo i have to fit the same specification unit....to me reading that text it means that the car fitted with a cd player it can be changed for a halfords cd player...but again a quick phone call later informs me that what they really mean is if your standard stereo breaks you have to fit another standard manufaturers stereo at 3times the cost of the halfords one, otherwise its a modification......
paul...
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" in the end they BOTH replaced the spring and dampers"
so it looks like it might be better to buy a matching pair then. thanx for that.
do you know anyone who's had mechanical problems because of lowering their car? one of the comments on here said that the drive shafts fail & the gear box diff bearings fail due to the extra stress of running at a different angle.
what do you think about that? i talked to a mechanic who said that there shouldn't be any problem at all if it's only dropped 30mm.....
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I think I'd ask what you like about the car. If it's the brilliant ride/handling then I'd steer clear of modifying the suspension. Peugeot were probably at their peak of ability with the 405 and must have spent a lot of money getting the suspension set-up just so. I was out on the fell roads between Stanhope and Barnard Castle yesterday in my 205 dTurbo which illustrated this point to me loud and clear! of It's just not at all feasible that an aftermarket suspension setup can match the original, unless you have the ability to spend a year and a lot of money constantly swapping parts to experiment!
Lowering the front only could well leave the car unbalanced on cornering. I agree about the possible mechanical effects of lowering as you're putting constant stresses on the driveshafts that they were never designed to have (except when the suspension is at the bottom of its travel occasionally).
All in all, I would personally favour a replacement of the various suspension bushes and droplinks etc where they are past their best. This can only improve the car, where lowering is most likely to spoil what is very, very good.
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how low to go....
my ex fiesta rs was 2" lower than a standard mk3 fiesta, and 1" lower than a xr2i
yep the car was great on mirror smooth roads and motorways, as you had no roll or bounce...
so your 30mm drop is ok but no lower
look at the state of the roads now....do you really want to loose that comfort..trust me when i hit a pot hole in the RS you said 4 letter words and hope nothing had broken off. hit the same in my wifes 1.1 fiesta and you'd bounce out of the hole.....
30mm with springs and dampers should be fine, but no more, also another thing to consider is uprated standard length kit....spax used to sell standard replacement springs and dampers with the dampers having adjustable setting ie comfort to rock hard...
mind you by the time you've bought the kit is it really worth the cost...
making sure you standard set up is up to scratch and making sure you have decent tyres inflated to the correct pressures can make a world of difference and also make sure you've not got 30kg of junk in the boot....
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hmmm interesting. thanx for all your comments.
what i've noticed so far is that people are very quick to warn me about 'possible mechanical problems' but there have been no posts of anyone actually experiencing that from dropping the car 30mm....
to answer your questions : i want to lower it because the front looks a bit high and i find that it rolls a bit on corners, which is just a personal thing. the shocks are in fine condition before anyone asks.
would a 30mm drop really make the ride so much harder?
neil.
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>>it rolls a bit on corners
Which changing the ride height of the car might make worse.
If you are not changing the roll stiffness of the car, what's important isn't the height of the centre of gravity of the sprung mass, but, the distance between the height of the c of g of the sprung mass and the roll axis of the car.
The roll axis of the car is defined by the suspension geometry of the car. It's certain that when you lower the car, you will also move the roll axis. If you move the roll axis further down than the distance by which you lower the body, you will make the car oll more.
Most modifications are ill thought out, and poorly engineered when compared to original equipment - for all but the most deviant, the loss in ride comfort you will suffer by making this modification will by far outweigh any improvements you might make to the car's handling - I'm being generous, in all probability, you'll ruin both ride and handling.
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It's certain that when you lower the car you will also move the roll axis. If you move the roll axis further down than the distance by which you lower the body you will make the car oll more.
sorry i'm not quite getting that. how does the car roll more by lowering the roll axis? i would have assumed that in essence the sprung body of the car sits on the suspension chassis. so if i make the body lower how can that make the roll axis "further down than the distance by which you lower the body"
surely then it will roll less. to go to extremes - if i took out the suspension completely, then surely the car wouldn't roll at all.
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The roll axis is effectively the hinge point about which the body rotates. Obviously, there isn't a real hinge, but, the location of this virtual hinge point is determined by the suspension geometry.
>>surely then it will roll less.
Not necessarily. It might do. It might do by virtue of sitting on stiffer springs, but the ride will be very poor.
So, you lower your car body relative to the ground, but that, in itself is not the complete story when considering body roll.
What is important is the position of the body relative to the roll axis - the distance between the centre of mass of the body and the roll axis.
So, by lowering the body, you also *must* change the suspension geometry and change the roll axis, and so, you might not acheive the desired effect.
To give an example, if, you designed a suspension where the roll axis was above the centre of gravity of the body, the car would actually lean into a corner!!
Roll, of itself, is not necessarily a bad thing. Only when wide tyres are fitted does it strongly affect the maximum cornering grip available, and it's much more of a human perception problem. Learn to use it as a cue, and part of the feedback mechanism telling you what the car is doing. Manufacturers have had the ability to design roll out for years (by making the roll axis and the body c of g coincident), but, none of them has taken it up with any seriousness. Why not?
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The 405TD is a good old workhorse and is well worth hanging on to for as long as possible. They are getting rarer and so parts will become increasingly difficult to find.
They are easy to work on, little in the way of fancy electrics to go wrong and they handle great. Their rustproof bodywork and bombproof XUD diesels mean they go on forever.
Martin
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No-one has said it yet... so I will....
the 405 doesn't have rear springs, of the normal type.
it has torsion bars.
top lower the rear of the car, you 'simply' rotate the torsion bar in respect to where it mounts in the suspension arms.
note i put 'simply'... in fact it is pretty hard to adjust the height 'just right' if you dont have experience of doing it. reading between the lines i think the OP doesn't have this experience.
lowering by 30mm shouldn't do damage to the driveshafts, but is it really worth the risk?
as said before, replacing worn bushes etc, will improve the ride and handling no end.
one thing many people forget, or don't know, is if you fit lower (shorter) springs, you may have to also fit special dampers (shock absorbers) as springs must be under tension and shorter (normally 45mm+ lowering) with standard length dampers won't have that tension, and will be loose on full suspension travel, which could have disastrous results.
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>>No-one has said it yet... so I will....
Yes, if this were my car, and if the cash were burning a hole in my pocket*, I would be wanting to upgrade the suspension to be like the sporty model in the range. It's much more sensible than trying to improve on a reasonable design via aftermarket bodging.
* Thankfully neither of those conditions has ever or will ever be satisfied!
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>>as said before, replacing worn bushes etc, will improve the ride and handling no end.
er...yeah great but the bushes are fine so why should i want to replace them?
if you read the original question - i wanted to know if lowering the ride by 30mm will do any damage. that's all. simple.
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Roll of itself is not necessarily a bad thing. Learn to use it as a cue and part of the feedback mechanism telling you what the car is doing.
lol. thanx for the driving lesson!
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Well, I fitted 30mm lowering springs to my 2003 Ford Focus TDCi Zetec and it did noticeably sharpen up the handling and reduce roll in corners, even with a supposedly good-handling car to start with.
I expect it would help with the Peugeot as they are set up fairly soft as standard, but expect some loss of ride quality. If the springs are only a slight increase over standard spring rates (i.e: minimal drop) you might get away with the standard dampers, whch I am using, but if they are worn then it may be advisable to replace them with stiffer dampers to match the springs.
Oh, and I haven't managed to split my sump with only a 30mm drop, even over speed humps!
An alternative way to reduce body roll would be to fit larger-diameter anti-roll bars.
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at last - someone has actually answered my question! thanks for that - very informative.
the dampers are pretty new so my plan is to try with the 30mm drop springs and see how it goes...
there's been all kinds of people here warning of impending doom and trying to impress with technical explanations but a fairly trustworthy mecahanic told me that i shouldn't have any probs at all if it's only 30mm.
do you know anywhere i can get simple clear instructions for changing the springs? i want to do it with as little hassle as possible!
cheers, neil.
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>>there's been all kinds of people here warning of impending doom and trying to impress with technical explanations
You know best.
>>but a fairly trustworthy mecahanic told me that i shouldn't have any probs at all if it's only 30mm.
What did your insurers say? What kind of warranty does your mechanic offer you?
I think it's fair to say that when it comes to this kind of modification, the users of this motoring forum are never going to be the most supportive.
This is a timely piece of news.
www.tinyurl.com/b2o946
>>trying to impress with technical explanations
If this was a poke at me, please relax. I offered a very basic technical explanation in the hope of being helpful, I've no need to impress you, or anyone else on here.
no probs with the link being clickable NC
Edited by Pugugly on 31/01/2009 at 20:27
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You know best.
huh? if i know best why are you continuing to give me advice?!!
What did your insurers say?
don't care. i live in sth of france and insurance companies really don't care about a 30mm drop in suspension height. believe me. they are worse than useless.
>>What kind of warranty does your mechanic offer you?
warranty? my car is 16 years old. i paid 650 euros for it. i've kept it in perfect nick, use it about twice a week and i'm having great fun messing around with it.
I think it's fair to say that when it comes to this kind of modification the users of this motoring forum are never going to be the most supportive.
i've noticed!
This is a timely piece of news. www.tinyurl.com/b2o946
doom doom! ...putting 30mm smaller springs on will kill me and my family!
If this was a poke at me please relax.
it's not. relax.
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Enough of the bickering please.
DD. BR Moderator.
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Enough of the bickering please.
yes - i couldn't agree more. thank you for your timely intervention.
best regards, neil.
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Nothing wrong with wanting to alter the looks of your own car imho, everyones taste is personal. I lowered my V6 Calibra with a medium priced 30mm kit and whilst it actually cornered much better the down side was that it thumped on the bump stops, fine on a nice smooth road but not suited to my locality in Cumbria! I also scrubbed off the rear tyres on the inside due to the change in alignment, to rectify this would have needed a change to modified bushes etc.
I had no problem with drive shafts or transmission, I would recommend some research, possibly there is an owners or enthusiasts club who could help you out. I got some great help from the VXON and Calibra Clubs. the solution for my Calibra was a top quality kit that had been tailored to the car type. if you don't get it right you will regret it and it will cost you more in the longer term!
Edited by Rob S on 01/02/2009 at 19:24
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I assume you want to lower the car to correct the mistakes made by those incompetent idiot engineers at Peugeot who have no idea how to design and manufacture a vehicle supension system.
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It`s an old diesel!! Better spend the money on something newer,something designed to go fast around corners by the manufacturer. Oh,and petrol of course.
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It`s an old diesel!! Better spend the money on something newer something designed to go fast around corners by the manufacturer.
erm...'better spend what money'?
it would cost me about 60euros to buy the new springs. how can i buy a new car with that?
do you mean the cost of the car? how can i have bought something newer for 650 euros?!!
actually it's an 'old diesel' with a surprisingly sporty feel and the turbo is quite cheeky on acceleration. a real pleasure to drive...but i wouldn't mind it being a little less rolly-polly on corners.
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I assume you want to lower the car to correct the mistakes made by those incompetent idiot engineers at Peugeot who have no idea how to design and manufacture a vehicle supension system.
correct!
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Nothing wrong with wanting to alter the looks of your own car imho everyones taste is personal.
exactly - thankyou very much for saying that. some folks here seem to frown on having fun.
I lowered my V6 Calibra with a medium priced 30mm kit and whilstit actually cornered much better the down side was that it thumped on the bump stops fine on a nice smooth road but not suited to my locality in Cumbria!
i'm thinking of just changing the front springs - the back sits quite well. would that be a bad idea?
I had no problem with drive shafts or transmission I would recommend some research possibly there is an owners or enthusiasts club who could help you out.
yes good idea - people would probably be a bit less judgmental. i've been looking for something like that online for 405's but didn't find anything yet.
if anyone has any knowledge of a club/site/forum like that?....
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>>probably be a bit less judgmental
I don't think the responses have been particularly judgmental.
Yes!, the advice you have got might not have been what you *wanted* to hear, but that doesn't make it bad advice, or judgmental - in fact, I think there has been some excellent advice given by the people who have taken (wasted?) their time to respond.
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I don't think the responses have been particularly judgmental.
mmm...they got better after a while. things like "why on earth would you want to do that" weren't a very good start. bit like asking someone why they want to change the colour of their car. taste is personal. isn't this part of the forum called 'technical advice' or something? that's what i need!
>>the advice you have got might not have been what you *wanted* to hear
eh?? i don't 'want' to hear anything particular. just interested to see if anyone has had a bad experience with 30mm....oh i can't be bothered to go throught it all again!!
I think there has been some excellent advice given by the people who have taken (wasted?) their time to respond.
ooof - chill out dude. there has indeed been some excellent advice - why on earth is it wasted?
my point was just that some of the comments weren't really answering my question. it's no big deal. and anyway... i seem to remember reading this in one of your posts :
I think it's fair to say that when it comes to this kind of modification the users of this motoring forum are never going to be the most supportive.
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i'm thinking of just changing the front springs - the back sits quite well. would that be a bad idea?
If it was me I would want to make sure everything was compatible, different ratings of springs have different characteristsics and a front/back mismatch could be dangerous. I think your best bet is to find a kit that is designed for the car or seek advice from a specialist in this area, I'll have a trawl on the net and see if I come up with anything.
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Here we go, owners club has a technical forum and the ecosse people may be worth a call.
www.clubpeugeotuk.org
www.ecosse-peugeot.co.uk
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ok guys that's great - thanx for the suggestions.
neil.
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