On the 2.5 head it's torque followed by angle.
I just think that the pedantic way people look at such relatively minor things is pointless.
How many people check their cars fluid levels and tyre pressures on a weekly basis and lights everyday but then argue about minor maintenance issues?
A smear of copperslip on the wheel bolts does no harm what so ever IMHO.
Steve.
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>>On the 2.5 head it's torque followed by angle.
Yes, I thought it would be. It's a completely different fastener, and a different tightening method, a different kind of joint altogether - you can't read across to wheel bolts.
>>I just think that the pedantic way people look at such relatively minor things is pointless.
If I were taking my car into a garage to be worked on, I would expect them to work to the manufacturer's guidelines - that's a large part of what I would be paying for. I would not be happy paying for people to make it up as they go along, however well intentioned.
>>A smear of copperslip on the wheel bolts does no harm what so ever IMHO.
People get away with it because that particular joint is hugely over-designed for normal use. This over design is partially to accomodate the abuse that manufacturers know will happen, but, the abuse may reduce the margin of safety in the joint.
People getting away with it doesn't make it right.
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So the correct manufacturer design is no grease.
Most of the service schedules at main dealers do not include removing the wheels and therefore ensuring the wheels are not seized to the hubs.
So they have designed a system where people will be stuck if they have a puncture?
It is common sense for most independants to remove all wheels at all services and take appropriate action as required (sometimes greasing the contact areas and sometimes oiling the threads if they appear to be used in mud or water etc). That is making it up as you go along? Or what?
As an aside, for those who are suddenly confronted by a stuck wheel and an urgent need to replace it. Loosen all the wheel bolts a lot , but not remove. Jack the car up, then let it down fairly quickly (not dangerously fast) and hopefully it will jar the wheel enough to unseize it. Or with bolts loosened just drive very gently forward and backwards with steering working lock to lock and this should work.
Its not in the textbooks, its not recommended; but it may just get you out of trouble !
Use the advice under your own risk though ! Sorry but I wont adivse it as safe !
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As an aside for those who are suddenly confronted by a stuck wheel and an urgent need to replace it. Loosen all the wheel bolts a lot but not remove.
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Ohhh, you cack-handed, heathen grease-monkey
I'll give it a go next time it happens :-)
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As an aside for those who are suddenly confronted by a stuck wheel and an urgent need to replace it. >> Use the advice under your own risk though ! Sorry but I wont adivse it as safe !
I've seen it done.
Not pretty, but effective.
I have also seen the other extreme, some bloke jacking car up, and hammering away with a rubber mallet to try to free a seized hub.
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>>So the correct manufacturer design is no grease.
If the car is supplied without grease, and there's no specific mention of grease in the manufacturer's workshop manuals, then, yes!
>>That is making it up as you go along? Or what?
Yes! For a DIYer to do it to his own car is one thing, but, for a garage to deliberately go against the manufacturer's specification on the behalf of a probably technically illiterate and ignorant customer is quite another. If there were ever a problem, the strongest defence available, which is to be able to state that the manufacturers instructions were fully complied with cannot be used.
Does trade indemnity insurance cover apply when the garage are working beyond the manufacturer's repair instructions?
Practically, as these joints are so over-designed, people usually get away with it.
Edited by Number_Cruncher on 14/11/2008 at 12:50
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Removing the wheels at service time is against the manufacturers instructions; so hang me (and all the other independants who do it) out to dry !
The wording I used though is "as appropriate". Often removing the wheels at service time is enough to stop them from seizing. If a car is used off road then different needs may arise?
But its either in black and white or its not as far as an engineer goes ?
If its black and white; then I should not remove wheels! Poor service imo; just saving labour time !
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>>so hang me...
That wasn't the point of my post YB, just to say that when you do go beyond manufacturer's instructions, you are making engineering decisions for your customer, and taking a larger technical responsibility on your shoulders which may not be covered by your indemnity insurance. I know if I were insuring a garage's work, I would charge a much higher premium to a garage which carried out unauthorised modifications.
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Define unauthorised modifications?
Replacing a part with a non oe supplied one (even if itsmade by the same people?)
Greasing a part that has been used under water and has previously seized?
Fitting uprated suspension parts on customers request?
I could go on with examples as you know well!
The reason why wheels arent removed (and therefore generally stick) is because engineers and accountants deem it correct. In the real world its not correct; its just price! If the vehicle tows boats in and out of water on trailers would it not be sensible to grease? But its not in the manufacturers schedule so its wrong?
The reason most people go to independants is becuase of their experience and ability and use of common sense!
Your family garage never had occasion to oil a wheel thread or grease a wheel hub?
Im talking in the real world; not out of the textbooks. Same as laboratory conditions; they rae not the same as happen outdoors on the roads!
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>>Define unauthorised modifications?
Any point where you change the vehicle from its specification.
>>Replacing a part with a non oe supplied one (even if itsmade by the same people?)
That depends upon the qualification status of the part, there's a relevant European spec, but I can't remember the number.
>>Greasing a part that has been used under water and has previously seized?
There, you may be in dodgy territory, the safer option would be to replace rather than repair.
>>Fitting uprated suspension parts on customers request?
Again, the qualification status of the parts is relevant, and to protect you, a signed agreement from the customer would be helpful.
>>The reason why wheels arent removed....
There's a balance between under and over maintenance that's really up to the manufacturer to define. In case of abnormal use, the manufacturer should be consulted to obtain revised servicing schedules.
The reason most people go to independants...
because they are a lot cheaper, and a lot easier to deal with than a dealer.
>>Your family garage never had occasion to oil a wheel thread or grease a wheel hub?
Yes, of course we did - in those far from litigious times, we didn't even use a torque wrench to tighten wheel bolts!
>>Im talking in the real world; not out of the textbooks. Same as laboratory conditions; they rae not the same as happen outdoors on the roads!
All this reference to text books and laboratories is very boring and irrelevant. Yes, I do know the theory of bolted joint design, yes, I have applied it *successfully* to solve real safety critical bolt failure problems, none of this is at all removed from reality. It's easy to snipe about the theory, but, it's the science and theory that has given us largely reliable vehicles - relying upon "common sense" would have us still riding about in Morris Minors (the pre-war ones!).
I'm talking about reality in the sense that there's a published specification and by not following it, you are taking a risk.
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The reason why wheels arent removed (and therefore generally stick) is because engineers and accountants deem it correct. In the real world its not correct;
BUT on the other end of the scale, where you have hours-per-job, then you see a company-ordained service calls for 0.333 hours to spray a spot of lube to locks and hinges? 20 minutes?
Or 0.33 hours to remove a wheel?
My car, when new, got a 'full monty' service in 4 hrs.
The independent, who used to work the exact same menu of things to do, took an hour and a half.
AND he came back and discussed with me his recommendations of what had to be done soon, before the next service.
He'd worked at the dealers'workshop, and explained how much flannel there was in the billing, and how they took the joe average for a ride.
Fortunately on some marques, motorplan has cut back on this evil, but guaranteed, when you are OUT of guarantee, they will be on you like a pack of hyenas with some spurious work...
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"when repling oil filters ,i put smear of grease around the seal. THIS MAKES IT NICE AND EASY TO REMOVE BY HAND NORMALLY "
It's good practice and, I believe, universally recommended to smear the seal and the sump washer with fresh oil. Whether it eases further removal I am not sure; oil filters, canister tops and sump bolts get overtightened all too often, such is the Spanner Controller's zeal to finish the job good'n'proper with no regard to the low recommended torque settings (20--25Nm being typical).
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