Fabia vRS - goes like the proverbial, delivers 50+MPG, smart, safe and not a bad cruiser either (6 speeds).
Smithsonian, give it a try.
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Just out of interest SS what were the superminis which were that bad?
I'd agree with the Fabia, though both mine were the estate version - smaller than the Focus/Astra HBs but more boot space and just as comfortable...
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I've driven or ridden in both new & old yaris, new micra, mk2 clio, c1, old punto, mk2 corsa and probably a fiesta at some point.
I found them all inferior to the latest generation astra which rides and handles much more competently as is the case with any C or D segment car that I have driven.
They say the new corsa is a much better bet, problem is that a nearly-new example is more expensive than the equivalent astra. There again, a nearly-new vectra is cheaper still!
The old shape fabia is getting plenty of praise, is the 64bhp 1.2 not a bit underpowered though?
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The old shape fabia is getting plenty of praise is the 64bhp 1.2 not a bit underpowered though?
Yes it is! Though I understand that the engine comes in two forms, 6v and 12v, the 12v is supposed to be ok - I've driven the Fabia 1 with the 1.2 engine and the 1.4 8v and they are not a patch on the TDi 80 or 100.
I don't feel its fair to compare the mk2 corsa with anything new, and the C1 is a city car not a supermini, but the latest superminis are light years ahead of the older models. At the end of the day you are getting a car which is smaller than the Astra and will never quite match ride comfort for that reason, just as an Astra will never match a Rolls! Is it worth the bother? Well that depends on your requierments - servicing-wise I doubt there's much in it, but fuel wise the SMs are better and if you are strapped for room to park then the Astra is just too big! ;)
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The 64 bhp won't break any speed records but provided you rev it it will not feel slow. The gutteral growl from the engine (it's a three cylinder) makes it sound quite sporty as well. As prviously stated get a 1.9 TDI in 100 bhp or 130 bhp vRS form and you will have a terrific car.
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>you could look on Autotrader for a Peugeot 205. <
Advice is correct (I have a 205) but I check A-T every few weeks - there will be precious few desirable 205s for sale IMHO (last made ~1995), and most of those will be GTis or automatics, which may not fit everyone's needs.
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Isn't an Astra or a Focus a small car then?
Recently I have put quite a few kilometres on a Citroen C3 HDI. I guess that's a small car?
I found it to be an easy-to-drive, comfortable, practical, highly economical...shed
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>Isn't an Astra or a Focus a small car then?<
The current Astra is certainly not a small car - it must be about 50% larger than the original Astra. I would call the Focus a Small Family Car (whatever that is exactly).
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In the last 20 years I have driven: Mercedes 260E, Jaguar XJ6 , a variety of 3 series BMWs, Fiesta, Audi A4 etc..
And now a Yaris diesle we have had for just over 2 years.
Surprisingly it seats 5 (yes really) in comfort.. is as comfortable as most of the above..(eases of access and high seats make it great) .. and is very economical to run ,tax and insure.
Speed humps are not nice but what's new?
So far 100% relieable - now 5 years old and no rust .
The OP's comments relate to a different era...
And yes I have driven non stop to Scotland in it: cruises happily at cough 70mph cough.
As for parking in town it's a doddle.
I would imagine the same goes for 90% of modern superminis?
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Im not gonna advocate buying one, but I often read that the latest Renault Clio is a very cosseting small car. It certainly looks comfy from a distance.
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It's entirely a matter of perception.
In some parts of the world, whole family [= parents + child(ren) ] travel together in 2-wheelers with smiles on their faces.
I personally think most modern small cars are perfectly capable of doing day to day transport - be in inside town or motorways.
Most of them run fine at 80-90 mph.
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>the latest Renault Clio <
.. is almost too big to be a 'small car' too.
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I started working from home 2 years ago and my Mondeo 2.2tdci sat on the drive going nowhere.
Eventually common sense prevailed and I sold it.
We now use Mrs Zarqon's Honda Jazz as our primary car - and for 2 adults 2 teanagers it has done everything we have asked of it.
It will potter round town or bomb down the motorway for 100 miles to visit the grandparents.
I wouldn't fancy a family holiday to France in it, but other than that its fine - these days we tend to book a cheap flight and hire at the other end anyway.
MPZ
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Well I must be some kind of dinosaur. I have really tried to like small cars. I've even bought some on occasion telling myself that I would get used to it. I admit that they are fun enough, especially in the nip and tuck of urban environments. But, I have to say, give me a large, preferably, estate car every time please. They just do more. In fact they do everything.
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They just do more.
Even to the gallon? :-P
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Point taken but here's something to ponder on. At current prices, My wife's Ka uses £1047 worth of petrol to cover 10000 miles. My Mondeo diesel estate uses £1102 worth of fuel to cover the same distance. I know it's not as simple as that but I can live with the costs v the convenience. Each to their very own of course.....
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I agree, superminis are very useful for urban motoring. However, this doesn't offset the crashing ride and hellish road and wind noise at speed that I have experienced in small cars.
Furthermore, the low gearing that makes for nippy progress in town is mind-numbing on a 80mph 'cruise', if I can call it that!
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I think what is missing from the original question is the usage.
If you do 12k miles per year town and maybe A road driving you could get away with a supermini provided you can find one that you fit.
That is not meant as a dig, I have in the past driven many small cars, 206, 127, Uno, Punto, Nova to name but a few.
The most recent was an 08 Fiesta (not the brand new model) which I found uncomfortable due to the centre console pushing against my left leg and the tyre roar at motorway speed unacceptable. Funnily enough the 206 is regularly put down due to the offset pedals, I had absolutely no problem with the driving position.
Of course, the tyres can be swapped for smaller wheels, bigger profile but then if I am spending good money on a car, I do not expect to have to finish off the job on behalf of the manufacturer.
The other doubt I have is longevity of the mechanicals. You don't see many cars on the hard shoulder with the bonnet up these days and oils seem to greatly reduce engine wear but I can't help feel a small 1.0 to 1.3 engined hatchback will feel like it has done everyone of those 100,000 miles after a relatively short time whereas 2.0 engined cars and above wear their miles better.
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Your sweeping generalisations suggest you have not been in enough different cars, let alone the most accomplished ones, to form a valid opinion.
Ive driven many small cars and this hellish wind noise and crashing ride, let alone low-gearing apply to the odd car, mainly from 10 years ago, but are nowhere near relevant in the majority of 2008 cars. Why would you even mention the mk2 clio, c1, old punto, mk2 corsa - all of these are two-three generations past aside from the C1 which is a purpose built city car.
If your going to make such an arguement, atleast go and drive the best available today rather than make sweeping statements based on outdated/poorly researched information.
This weekend, go drive the latest Fabia, Fiesta. Pug 207 and Renault Clio and perhaps the Fiat G.Punto aswell, then come back and give us an informed opinion.
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This weekend go drive the latest Fabia Fiesta. Pug 207 and Renault Clio and perhaps the Fiat G.Punto aswell then come back and give us an informed opinion.
Just stay away from the cars with 205/40x17 wheel and tyre combos otherwise I suspect they may emphasise a crashing ride and road/tyre noise.
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With all due respect, sir, none of the cars you list could be quantified as 'small' in the proper sense of the term, with the possible exception of the Fabia which I have already acknowledged.
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The Fabia is, give or take 10 cm, the same size as every other car in the class. Its smack bang in the middle - the Clio is shorter.
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Speaking as someone who finds a Primera slightly cramped, there is no way anyone is going to persuade me that a small car would be adequate for my needs.
Focus-sized is about as small as I am prepared to go.
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>the same size as every other car in the class.<
Exactly. None of these is a 'small' car any more. The Punto is even called Grande ...
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Perhaps, but each class of car had grown in turn, so a Mondeo is now on the same scale as a Granada if not bigger, im sure it is heavier.
The only class of car that is about the same is city cars as they call them. Im still not sure what the size issue has to do with small car comfort - while the latest superminis are large in dimensions, they are not really much bigger inside than their older counterparts as they are designed with safety in mind and style which wasnt relevant years ago.
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I'm sorry but this "small cars are no good for high mileages" is complete and utter carp - some of you "large car defenders" need to be more honest and just admit that you just don't WANT to downsize rather than say that smaller cars are somehow mega uncomfortable and other such rubbish!
We switched to a Fabia estate back in 2001 from a Vectra, for two adults and 2 teenagers its been fine, taking us all over Europe and doing 15k a year without any issues... in fact I remember going to Devon one day with a Mondeo owner and he couldn't believe just how comfortable it was...
I accept that there are some superminis that I wouldn't want to go long distances in and you have to be careful to choose the right engine (ours was the 1.9TDi), but as long as you do they are more than capeable cars.
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If 10 year old small cars are completely different from their modern equivalent, perhaps that's where the problem is.
1k will buy me a Mondeo estate from 2001, or a 1998 A6 with 100k on the clock. It might buy me a 1997 Micra with 50k on the clock (as they don't do the high miles they're not as cheap).
Why oh why would I want to buy a 1997 Micra which somebody above pointed out is a horrid car. Noisy, uncomfortable, poverty-spec.
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Why oh why would I want to buy a 1997 Micra which somebody above pointed out is a horrid car. Noisy uncomfortable poverty-spec.
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I wouldn't... except as a cheap urban runabout like I did when we bought my daughters 10 year old Polo 1.4L for just that purpose
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I freely admit that my main motivation is quite simply that I don't want to downsize. I find my large estate cars more useful than smaller alternatives. It is much the same re house choice. More space gives more options. While I can afford it I shall have a larger car, they are indisputably more useful. For me anyway.
Not being disrespectful to small cars or their owners. If a small car fits their needs and lifestyle, good luck to them. It wouldn't fit as well with mine. Not sure why I am finding it necessary to excuse that......
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I'm sorry but this "small cars are no good for high mileages" is complete and utter carp
The question I posed was regarding the small engine, not the small car.
A 1.9 turbo diesel in a truly small car is the exception rather than the rule.
Most small cars are 1.4 litres and smaller, diesel and petrol. The question I asked is how these cars cope with six figure mileages ?
100k miles for a 1.9 turbo diesel in a Fabia is neither here nor there. I would imagine this engine really will just be getting into its stride about now with regular servicing.
However, what about front suspension. How is that coping with the extra weight and extra torque of such a relatively large lump in a small shell ? How does the tyre wear of this car compare with the 1.2 petrol ? Is it favourable in comparison with say a similarly engined Octavia ? Is there much difference in running costs between the two models ?
Edited by gmac on 24/10/2008 at 11:46
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I have been doing a lot of car hunting in the last 3 months since my old car gave up the ghost. I have sat in Mondeo sized cars, big 4x4s and superminis.
I am 6 foot 2 inches tall with long legs.
I cannot fit comfortably in many of the so-called large cars because so any of them are tiny inside the cockpit. I can't get my legs under the steering wheel of a Landcruiser, nor a RAV4 nor an Avensis (Well at a pinch), nor a Corolla but I can fit comfortably, head and leg-room, in a Verso and a Yaris.
I cannot get my legs under the steering wheel of the latest Mondeo nor the Focus but can fit into a Ka fine. Likewise, the Vectra and Astra are pretty cramped but I have no problems with the Corsa. Most of the big Citroens are a no no but the C3 is fine. The Micra ain't too bad but the Qashqai is just ridiculous room-wise for my height and legs.
Golf is a no no but a Golf Plus is fine - oops, going the wrong way now.
I can list make after make where they perceived 'big' cars simply are no good for someone of my height and leg length but I am able to fit into their small or supermini sized vehicle. Part of the problem is all the knobs and levers on the steering wheels these days, the number of 'expensive' cars without an extendable steering wheel or simply not enough leg-room from seat to dash even with the seat lowered and pushed back as far as they will go.
The biggest problem though is the fashion to make these wider and wider and widr central consoles which take away leg-room and allow absolutely no-where for the left knee to go. Really bad design and I know many tall drivers who complain about this but, sadly, we never hear it mentioned in car reviews. Smaller cars do not seem to have this fixation with huge central consoles so perhaps that is why they have no room.
Alas, the small cars often have little room in the back so no good if you need to use them all the time and/or not much room to carry 'big' stuff.
I think the truth is that all the car makers are way behind the curve now in designing what people want. I think people want smalelr, more economical cars generally but such cars with more room. I personally think this is going to need a radical redesign of the styling with small car length combined with a much taller roofline... but then what for MPG?
Oh, all these 'big' cars with rear sloping roofs - it is bad enough trying to sit in the front of them but in the back is a joke. I was watching Richard Hammond on Top Gear in a C-Max working it as a taxi last week and a tall chap got in the back and his head was crammed against the roof. Nuts!
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The question I posed was regarding the small engine not the small car. A 1.9 turbo diesel in a truly small car is the exception rather than the rule. Most small cars are 1.4 litres and smaller diesel and petrol. The question I asked is how these cars cope with six figure mileages ?
I would refer you to the OP which made no mention of engine sizes, just generalised, which is what I was replying to - I and some others pointed out the engine size point early in the thread - many superminis are powered by 1.6 petrols and 1.6 and higher diesels which are more than capable of high mileage as they are also found in the larger cars and do it in them - as to suspension - why shouldn't it - as long is its properly looked after?!
Humph, I commend you on your honesty!
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Erm my Fabia vRs is turning at about 2500 rpm at 80 in 6th and believe me there is no crashing ride or excessive wind noise. I think you must have had a bad experience with Mini 850 Smithsonian.
I think you really need to go out and test drive a few of the latest Super minis before you make statements like this. Go and try a new Corsa,Clio, New Fiesta, Mazda 2, SEAT Ibiza, 207 etc and then come back on this site and give us the lowdown.
Edited by Mattbod on 24/10/2008 at 18:47
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