Cloud_Cirrus, I think you've misread the information around issuance of the NIP. They actually have up to 6 months to issue the notice, you have 28 days to respond to it once you've received it. Not the other way round.
I have requested to view the video footage and I am going to the Civic Centre tomorrow to do so. Even though the paperwork has been contracted out, viewings of the CCTV footage are still done at Reading Civic Centre.
I'll let you know what happens. I may appeal if I consider the fine to be unfair.
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My understanding of NIPs (might be wrong) is that they have 14 days + maybe 2 for postage time to get a NIP to the registered keeper, this person has 28 days to respond and a summons can be issued up to 6 months after the date of the alleged offence. What you got at Reading was not a NIP, it was a penalty charge notice and I am not aware that there are any time limits for these. Over to DVD!
Edited by Armitage Shanks {p} on 21/10/2008 at 11:14
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Yes, you're right AS, it's a Penalty Charge Notice. Sorry for the confusion. The prosepct of receving a NIP for my previously mentioned possible speeding past a camera van is playing on my mind today as the 2 weeks are nearly up. This is unrelated to the bus lane issue.
If you check out the link in Cloud_Cirrus's post, that details the time limits on issuing a PCN and it's maximum 6 months so far as I can tell. It is written in the peculiar form of English beloved of the Civil Service, of course, so I may not be understanding it correctly. It's enough to send a normal person to sleep after a few lines.
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My reading of the link is that they have to send it within 28 days, unless, within 14 days of the offence they have asked for, but not recevied, details (eg reg keeper) - in which case they have a further 6 months to send out the PCN - which means you could receive one up to 7 months after the offence. However, if you receive one after 28 days, then I would ask to see evidence that they have asked for reg keeper details within 14 days - if not, then SI not complied with, and out of process, so no case to answer. Maybe!
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I am so glad I moved out from Reading, 28 years spent in the place was quite enough!!!
And of course there is no ulterior motive behind Reading BC issuing these is there, like for instance that they own the towns bus company????..........................Oh wait, they do own the bus company!!!! Which also explains why they do all they can to give as many bus lanes as possible whilst causing maximum disruption to cars!!!
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This is a PCN (N'est ce pas?) not a FPN (Mon Dieu) consequently the bus lane incursion is a de-criminalised offence and as such there is no requirement in respect of any NOIP or summons........
It is a PCN offence detected by camera, known as a Reg 10 offence. There are time limits as set out below:
The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007
Reg 10.?(1) An enforcement authority may serve a penalty charge notice by post where?
(a) on the basis of a record produced by an approved device, the authority has reason to believe that a penalty charge is payable with respect to a vehicle which is stationary in a civil enforcement area .
Note it states a stationary offence. I understand that bus lane and box junction offences are now also included.
A regulation 10 penalty charge notice may not be served later than the expiration of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which, according to a record produced by an approved device.
But if within 14 days of the appropriate date the enforcement authority has requested the Secretary of State (DVLA) to supply the relevant particulars in respect of the vehicle involved in the contravention and those particulars have not been supplied before the expiration of the 28-day period; notwithstanding the expiration of the 28-day period, an enforcement authority shall continue to be entitled to serve a regulation 10 penalty charge notice?for a period of six months beginning with the appropriate date.
As will be seen from this the LA have you over a barrel for how do you dispute these times, especially where request made to DVLA in 14 days and they have not replied within 28 days?
dvd
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Reg 10.?(1) An enforcement authority may serve a penalty charge notice by post where? (a) on the basis of a record produced by an approved device the authority has reason to believe that a penalty charge is payable with respect to a vehicle which is stationary in a civil enforcement area . Note it states a stationary offence. I understand that bus lane and box junction offences are now also included.
Thanks, DVD. Does this mean that I have only comitted an offence if I have stopped whilst in the bus lane? I.E. If I have just driven through or across one without stopping, then there is no case to answer?
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Hang on DVD. You are quoting parking regulations. The link in Cloud_Cirrus's post describes bus lane contraventions, which is what is at issue here. I don't think I'm being done for parking in one, just driving in or across one.
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Bus lanes - LA will make Traffic Regulation Order as to what is allowed/exempt in respect of movement/parking in a Bus lane.
Typical Bus Lane Order:
www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1997/19972402.htm
Note it does not just include parking on a Bus lane.
LA's can apply under Section 144 Transport Act 2000 and be granted permission to decriminalise the offence by an Order
i.e. The Bus Lane Contraventions (Approved Local Authorities) (England) Order 2005 and further amendments
and I understand Reading have done this.
This then gives authority for them to invoke
The Bus Lane Contraventions (Penalty Charges, Adjudication and Enforcement) (England) Regulations 2005
Part 2 Reg 3: A penalty charge may be imposed only on the basis of a record produced by an approved device. (camera)
Penalty charge notices
Reg 8. ?(1) Where an approved local authority have reason to believe that a penalty charge is payable with respect to a vehicle, they may, serve a notice ("penalty charge notice") on the person appearing to them to be the owner of the vehicle or on the person appearing to them to be the person liable to pay the charge.
A penalty charge notice shall be served before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the detection date.
(3) Where?
(a) within 14 days of the detection date an approved local authority have made a request to the Secretary of State (DVLA) for the supply of relevant particulars; and
(b) those particulars have not been supplied before the date after which the authority would not be entitled to serve a penalty charge notice (28 days).
the authority shall continue to be entitled to serve a penalty charge notice for a further period of six months beginning with the date mentioned in sub-paragraph (b).
All this mirrors what I posted earlier at which time I mistakenly ( I was in a rush as SHMBO wanted the spend) thought that that all had been brought under one umbrella.
Any clearer?
dvd
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Yes, thank you.
In other words, like you said, they've got us over a barrel. They can issue a PCN within 6 months, whatever happens. Why don't they just say that and be done with it. Blooming bureaucrats.
I think it will only be worth contesting the charge if, on viewing the footage, it has been issued incorrectly. Which I find unlikely, but I'm willing to invest an hour to go and take a squizz, even if it only serves to remind me that I'm getting old and, even though I don't remember doing it, I did do it, or, if it shows that my local authority are quite happy to take money off me in additon to my eye watering council tax for an incredibly petty act such as cutting a corner of a bus lane.
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This all happened nearly 30 years ago but serves to illustrate that nothing changes really.
I used to live in Edinburgh.
I worked for a company based in Norwich.
They provided me with a company car leased from a company in Guildford.
I went to Carlisle on business one day.
I wrongly but inadvertantly went into a newly created bus lane while in Carlisle. As soon as I had done it I realised my mistake and came out of it again.
Three months later I had a visit at home from the Edinburgh Police. The officers concerned at least had the grace to be a bit apologetic. They questioned me about the incident which I could just about remember.
Subsequently, I received notice of a court case to accuse me of this heinous deed. I was given the option of attending if I wished to contest or writing to admit my guilt.
So here's the paper path........
Carlisle traffic warden observes and notes the inadvertant 5 yard bus lane use and immediate rectification.
Carlisle Police are informed.
Car is traced to Guildford leasing co.
Carlisle Police contact Guildford Police
Guildford Police visit leasing company to gain further info.
Guildford Police inform Carlisle Police that the car is on lease to a Norwich company
Carlisle Police contact Norwich Police
Norwich Police visit my head office to get more info.
Norwich Police inform Carlisle Police that the car is at my house in Edinburgh
Carlisle Police ask Edinburgh Police to follow up.
Edinburgh Police visit me
Edinburgh Police inform Carlisle Police of my details
Carlisle Police pass my info to Carlisle council
Carlisle council bring a prosecution which goes to court
I plead guilty by letter
I get fined a fiver.........
That was worth it then.
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That was worth it then.
And as any jobsworth will tell you, it is worth it now.
All mobilephones to be registered in future, no purchase allowed without ID and proof of address. Thousands more jobs to be created to keep all your phone and email traffic on record to add to the MOT, MIB and other databases.
Keeps the jobsworths employed, but a source of income has to be found to pay for their salaries and pensions.
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..nothing changes really.
I think that illustrates how things *have* changed, and, in fact have been tightened just very recently.
These days that whole trail would be done by letter, at very little cost to the originating authority. The recent change is that anyone who refuses to facilitate this process along its way now faces a very hefty penalty themselves.
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Reading is a vast unclean urinal between the London Road and the Bath Road. Obviously it is well worth avoiding by train or car (and anyway actually). If you have to go somewhere near it by train, my advice is to pull the communication cord and get out at Datchet or Taplow or somewhere like that.
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Hideous generalisation, Lud.
It's a vastly improved town since I've been here (14 years). Good facilites, some great schools, easy access to London and Heathrow, on the doorstep of beautiful countryside, particularly if you live on the north bank of the Thames. Shed loads of money about to be spent on an expanded train station, new roads and a massive redevelopment of the run down 60s monstrosity around the station.
Yes, about 25% of it is a bit iffy, but what important town does that not apply to?
I am sitting in my Reading office as I type, with wonderful views over the Thames and the Chiltern Hills to the north.
Short of emigrating, there's nowhere else I'd rather live.
Having been born in Taplow and grown up in Windsor, I'd take Reading over either of those suburbs of Slough any day. You can particularly stick Datchet where the sun don't shine, unless you are really in to scrutinising the landing gear of jumbo jets every 30 seconds.
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Heh heh Alanovich... one of the good things about frivolous polemic is that you never know where it will lead. Sorry, no offence. Of course I mentioned Datchet and Taplow in the same spirit that people used to mention Timbuktu, as a place no one was ever likely to go near.
I used to pass through Reading often in my pre-car-owning youth, hitching up and down the A4. I liked it better before all the brick redevelopment and inner ring road were there. Had an old aunt, now deceased, who lived in the Western edges of Reading where I used to go to see her. A fairly depressing area.
I went to school in Old Windsor for two years in the mid-fifties. Our playing fields were on Runnymede as was our boathouse. By the riverside back road through Old Windsor there used to be an outfit called the Priory Garage that sold vintage and early post-vintage Aston Martins. Of course they were only about 25 years old then. An ordinary four-seat tourer might go for as little as £250, but I seem to remember a red Ulster at £450... Pity I didn't have any money or a driving licence because I liked the look of them.
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And by the way, since you mention close scrutiny of landing gear, my school was under a flight path in certain wind conditions. Mostly piston and propjet planes in those days of course. While turbine planes were fairly quiet when cruising down to land, after taking off they made a very loud flogging, whining noise with propellers on coarse pitch dragging themselves up into the air at a piddling 150mph or so... each one grew slowly to a crescendo over about a minute, but it sounded much longer after a hard day at school when you were trying to sleep. Then the noise would die away quite quickly, but you could already hear the next one approaching, one every two or three minutes.
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Well I certainly remember Priory Garage, I had an uncle out in Old Windsor. No idea if it's still there but about 10 years ago it was quite a big MG Rover dealer. Expect there are flats there by now. My parents once toyed with the idea of buying a very old looking house right next door to it (on the left as you look), but wisely passed up the chance. That's a very busy road these days.
I do rememebr there also being a trader/specialist repairer of Triumph cars in a remote part of the village, I think he was even on an island in the Thames. My Mum sold my Dad's old Triumph 2000 to him when Dad died in 1983. It was just too big and heavy to drive for her, once she could face driving again after Dad's accident (killed in motorbike crash) she went and bought a brand new Mitsubishi Colt (A-reg, very posh), the first foreign built car we'd had. Had that weird two gear stick system - 4 speeds plus an extra lever marked "Performance" and "Economy", either of which you could select in any gear. Never seemed to make much difference to the performance of the car but the engine note did increase. Not surprised they didn't catch on.
No offence taken, BTW - I do like to stand up for Reading though, it often gets an undeserved slating!
As for landing gear, my primary school was on the Heathrow flight path when Concorde started flying, the dinner lady always used to blow the whistle during playtime when she heard it approaching so we could all give it a wave. Glorious noise that thing made, how sad we haven't managed to develop mach speed flight at an affordable cost.
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I firmly agree with Lud on his description of Reading, and having been born there and lived there the majority of my life I can only say that moving the 50 minutes down the road to just outside the New Forest is by far the best move I ever made!!!! RBC have killed off Reading and turned it into somewhere people work and exist, I don't think any one actually "Lives" there any more!!!
I drove through it for the first time in about 3 years last week and could not believe just how much more of a dump it is compared to the last time I was there!! When I lived there it used to be quicker for me to get to a contract in Southall then it did for me to get to Richfield Ave in the mornings, and I was only going from Earleigh!!
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