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I have an overnight loan of the new BMW 123d organised for next week. That is an engine I'm looking forward to driving!
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On your price criterion, only the Avensis T180, I think - just over £19,000 at DtD but you get more toys and leather than you do with the Accord. I wonder if there will be an Accord coupe over here, and whether they'll do it as a diesel.
As has been said, what with the new Accord, Legacy and the (oldish) Avensis, a bumper year for a certain sort of driver.
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Stevie
Lakland 44-02 Sunburst
Yamaha YTS-23
Mexican Telecaster
Alesis Micron
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This type of engine has been out a couple of years with toyota in the avensis and rav4 and more recently the auris badged as the T180.
I have the T180 engine and its the 180bhp version and its called the D-CAT which exceeds euro emission standards. It has 300lb-ft of torque and is very quick yet has very low emissions and sounds absolutely nothing like a diesel engine its extremely quiet in its 2.2l form. Its extremely smooth a very nice to drive.
Diesel engines have plenty of maturing to do and theres a lot more the manufacturers can do with diesel. So yes i expect these engines to come to light with most manufacturers soon.
Edited by OldSkoOL on 14/11/2007 at 20:22
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Without driving any bmw diesels i would say they have the best line up. Not sure on the emissions but i know the 335d twin turbo they have has 100bhp and 180nm more torque than my 180bhp and 400nm in my T180 yet it can achieve a similar economy.
I think thats pretty impressive for a car thats nearly as quick as an RS4.
update///
wow i've just checked and the 335d only emits 13g/km more than my T180 and its about 2secs quicker 0-60; that really is impressive engineering for a twin turbo diesel.
Edited by OldSkoOL on 14/11/2007 at 20:33
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BMW emissions levels. .
You need to remember that weight affects emissions and the 1 series is a small car. It may be sub 120g co2 but can you fit a 3 seater sofa in the back - er no! You can in the Honda and my (nearly four year old one) is 153g, it would be way less if it only weighed what a 1 series weighs.
Also the 335 only achieves those emissions on the test cycle where it does not use all the power, the engine won't do much more than idle - if you use it it is much worse, and again the 3 series shell is a little cramped for four adults!
Was speaking to a supplier the other week and his comment was never mind the diesels look at the co figures the petrol cars are achieving!
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If there's an auto version of the Honda diesel coming then I'm sure that will do well - I almost certainly would have bought an Accord if auto diesel had been available, and if ever there was a car crying out for auto, then it's the FRV.
If they can also do an auto CRV (the 4WD might be a problem) then I would imagine that would be a very easy to drive car that would appeal to a lot of people.
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Question for the forum, these CO2 measurements and other pollution measurements which are apparently getting to be so good from modern diesels, what driving conditions are they taken under.... in the last 2 weeks I have been virtually smoked out three times by the accelerating away from me of a diesel car in front, in each case the car was a modern "current model" from manufacturers well known for their diesel engines, Renault, Volkswagen, and BMW. The black soot they leave in the air behind them surely contains all sorts of damaging muck, and it makes me wonder about the apparent cleanliness of these modern designs, and the validity of the modern measuring techniques.
I would love someone to tell me I am wrong, but evidence still tells me diesel is dirty.
I am not a anti-diesel petrolhead though, I had 3 diesel cars in 10 years, and would be able to be convinced to go back to diesel.
I remain sceptical however of the claims being made regarding emmissions.
Guy
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The current Honda and Toyota 2.2s are all excellent, so if Honda can make another leap forward then that is great news. The 2.2 150 in my Toyota is immensely more refined and smooth revving than the petrol(!) Mondeo I had before. I know Ford's run of the mill engines are no paragon of refinement and eagerness, but it was still a surprise to find it beaten hands down by a diesel, especially after driving diesel Mondeos too. The Honda was equally impressive, as I recall, streets ahead of a couple of 2.0 TDI VWs I drove.
I haven't driven one, but BMW's 530d does sound awesomely smooth at idle.
None of them seem to smoke in the manner of VWs, Fords, Renaults either.
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BMW's 530d does sound awesomely smooth at idle
(Nostalgic far away look on a former owner's face)
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BMW's 530d does sound awesomely smooth at idle
It still sounds like a minicab when it shares the driveway with a 530i ;)
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The current Honda and Toyota 2.2s are all excellent so if Honda can make another leap forward then that is great news. The 2.2 150 in my Toyota is immensely more refined and smooth revving .......... The Honda was equally impressive ......... streets ahead of a couple of 2.0 TDI VWs I drove.
A good CR diesel will often feel more refined than most 4 cyl petrol engines due to the torque and power not being dependant on revs. VAG PDs dont cut it in refinement terms.
I drove a 2.2 T180 Avensis about a year ago (my more comprehensive assessment is on here somewhere) and was mildly disapointed, I thought it would be that leap forward due to Piezzo injectors etc though was really no more refined (but for on the m/way due to overly high gearing) than my 2002 2.0 TDCi Mondeo which was then over 100k miles, it did not feel like 177 bhp and was torque shy below 2000rpm, the Mondeo pulling strongly from 1500 and like a train at 1800 where as the T180 was not fluffy below 2000 rather it really did not get going until 2000rpm. In my mind this, together with the excessively high gearing makes it very inflexible, for instance slowing to 50 on the motorway needs 4th gear requiring two down and two up changes to get back up to cruise. The pull from 2000 to 3000 is impressive though a 2.2 Mondeo (or X-Type) (which on paper produce the same torque and a little less power) on the road feel much more lively due to the low down flexibility.
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>>A good CR diesel will often feel more refined than most 4 cyl petrol engines due to the >>torque and power not being dependant on revs. VAG PDs dont cut it in refinement terms.
Agreed, but that's not what I was getting at. What I meant was that my Toyota diesel will rev more smoothly and eagerly through say 1500-4000rpm than the petrol Ford ever did. Above 4000 is irrelevant as the petrol Mondeo simply sounded thrashed and unhappy above that speed, with little gain in performance. The fact that in the Avensis I don't need 4000rpm, as it is illegal in every gear bar first and second, is an added advantage :-)
I drove a 2.2 T180 Avensis about a year ago (my more comprehensive assessment is on here somewhere)
Remember it well, as I read it around the time I was considering the Avensis. It was a useful appraisal.
for instance slowing to 50 on the motorway needs 4th gear requiring two down and two up changes to get back up to cruise.
I'm very surprised by that statement, as I have generally found (in my 2.2 150) that acceleration in 6th, though sluggish, is more than enough to keep up with the flow, whilst dropping to 5th feels better, but generally means I can't use the acceleration available as something else will be holding me up. The chance to use the performance available in 4th just does not occur in ebb and flow motorway traffic. On the rare occasions that the lane opens up, 5th is more than capable of providing the shove to take me past slower traffic.
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>> two up changes to get back up to cruise. I'm very surprised by that statement as I have generally found (in my 2.2 150) that acceleration in 6th though sluggish is more than enough to keep up with the flow >>
My Mondeo gives about 31mph/1000 rpm in top hence 50 is about 1600rpm at which revs it stomps away where as the T180's 6th is around 40mph/1000 (good for CO2 and BiK figures and perhaps continental cruising though not UK roads) however it does not pull strongly below 2000rpm which is around 80mph so even at 70 the response in 6th is weak and 50mph definately needs 4th.
I think the 150 has a lower 6th gear and may also be a little stronger at low revs.
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>>due to the torque and power not being dependant on revs
What!? By using common rail, does this magically enable engines to break the law of physics?
Number_Cruncher
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>>due to the torque and power not being dependant on revs What!? By using common rail does this magically enable engines to break the law of physics?
Come on NC you get the point, perhaps the word "so" judiciously placed would have helped though the fact is a diesel produces its max torque and max power at lower revs.
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Strange how no-one worries about things they can't see. Didn't they replace the lead in petrol with benzene and isn't that just as dangerous?
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Benzene is known to be dangerous, and there is no doubt that exposure beyond certain limits can cause disease. Black smoke is mostly comprised of large particles, not the lung penetrating ultra fines that all engines (spark ignition DI especially) emit. The concentration of ultrafines cannot be guessed as a proportion of PM10. Its because the measurement of ultrafines has lagged that these invisible particles, the health effects of which are uncertain, are not tackled. Except in diesels with DPF. So, if diesel smoke at ultrafine level is harmful, why are petrol engines exempt?
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Strange how no-one worries about things they can't see. Didn't they replace the lead in petrol with benzene and isn't that just as dangerous?
Yes, I cannot understand why people get so hung up on a bit of soot for heavens sake. I have been far more bothered whilst driving, by stinking worn out or poorly maintaned petrol cars.
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