make them all have a reliant for a year that will teach them how to control a car
or a motorbike for a year
my bus fares have gone up AGAIN, said i wouldnt use them after last time as well,but i hate taxis as most are well below mechanical standard up here in yorkshire
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What's a "bus?"
Ask Altea Ego ;-)
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a bus is something one has to endure when one has been away fratenising with the natives and needs to return home from the more civiilsed train station
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Meanwhile, back in the real world, my limiter when I learned was my Mini 850. IIRC, it delivered a stunning 37bhp and couldn't overtake a milk float without a good run up. I do wonder if something like that might help. Cars seem to have moved on power wise while young men's brains haven't.
V
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Meanwhile back in the real world my limiter when I learned was my Mini 850.
SNIPQUOTE! once more for the lazy person who STILL can't be bothered to do so for themself!
Vin, this is funny. You think that sticking a limiter on a modern car is a bad idea, but that an old car which is limited by its tiny engine is fine. What exactly is the difference, apart from the fact that the crashed Mini is much more likely to kill or injure its occupants?
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Because, NoWheels, if you actually THOUGHT about what I said, I said that I think a 30mph limit is off in the land of fairies in terms of saving lives, as it would increase risk terribly in the real world. What I then suggested was a limit on power (and you thought I meant that everyone should drive old Mini 850s). If you can't see the difference between a power limit and a speed limit, then I can't help you.
V
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What I then suggested was a limit on power (and you thought I meant that everyone should drive old Mini 850s). If you can't see the difference between a power limit and a speed limit then I can't help you.
OK, if sarcasm is how like discussing things, then I can do sarcasm too. If you don't understand that a power limit constrains both acceleration and top, then let's resume the conversation when you've done some research.
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I mean "constrains both acceleration and top speed"
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My Mini did about 70-75mph. Not really too constrained, is it?
You're suggesting 30. Not 70, not 60, not 50, not 40, but 30!
You're the one proposing putting drivers in 30mph vehicles on the road. Then when a fault is pointed out in your reasoning, you extend your plan to ban young drivers from dual carrriageways. What next? I point out that single carriageway nsl roads will become blocked up with 30mph cars. What will you suggest? Presumably, given your banning mentaility, they should be kept off there. What about 50mph roads? 40mph roads?
Why not just ban them completely from all roads that allow >30mph speeds? That'd force them to do every mile of their motoring on the most dangerous roads in the kingdowm. Would that fulfil your desire to make your barmy plan make sense?
V
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Vin, we can argue away about the details and about where to draw the lines.
But in the meantime young men are massively over-represented in the accident figures, killing or injuring not just themselves but their passengers.
Some other countries impose speed limits on young drivers, so it's not a barmy idea. If the most practical way of implementing it is to restrict drivers to 30mph roads for a while, so be it: there is a lot to be learnt at that speed.
Other possibilities include the ideas used in many American states, some which ban young drivers at particular times of the day (e.g. between 11pm and 5am) and/or restrict their ability to carry passengers. There are plenty of options, and I'm sure that all of them have some downsides, but those downsides look trivial compared with the horrendous accident rates for young male drivers under the current system.
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"we can argue away about the details and about where to draw the lines."
Sounds like you're beginning to realise that 30mph might not be a good idea. Then
"If the most practical way of implementing it is to restrict drivers to 30mph roads for a while, so be it: there is a lot to be learnt at that speed."
Practical? How impractical do you need it to be? Can't drive outside town centres. Come up to a 40mph sign and need to do a U turn? Can't drive on dual carriageways? Kids living in the countryside simply can't drive. No motorway driving, obviously, despite the inherent safety of those roads.
What happens if he lives in Portsmouth and gets a job in Petersfield. There is literally no way of driving between the two on 30mph roads. Or Ronsey to Nursling (3 miles) for that matter. He can't take the job.
C'mon NowWheels, just for me, admit that a 30mph blanket limit on young drivers would be insane.
V.
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Can't drive on dual carriageways? Kids living in the countryside simply can't drive.
Then they need to get their experience in towns. They obviously can't use a car for regular transport until they have progressed to a full licence.
No motorway driving obviously despite the inherent safety of those roads.
Motorways are safer if you know how to drive on them. The current situation of a driver with only the very limited experience needed to pass the test being let loose on a motorway is crazy, and plenty of other countries ban newly-qualified drivers from motorways.
What happens if he lives in Portsmouth and gets a job in Petersfield. There is literally no way of driving between the two on 30mph roads.
They would have the same options as anyone who doesn't have both a driving licence and a car of their own: public transport, or if that's as useless as in other parts of the country, arrange a lift ... and if none of those are available either look for a job close to home or rent a room in town. It's what people have done for many generations.
Or Ronsey to Nursling (3 miles) for that matter. He can't take the job.
15 minutes on a bicycle, thirty minutes to walk, if there is no bus and no lift. Perfectly feasible to take the job.
C'mon NowWheels just for me admit that a 30mph blanket limit on young drivers would be insane.
AS before, it might not be the best way of imposing a restriction. But it'd be a lot better than having youngsters continuing to drive very fast cars without restrictions. Motorcycle licences carry restrictions, so the principle is nothing new -- it's just a matter of what details work best in the balance.
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Do you know, I think you could be right.
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It's not speed that kills, it sudden changes in speed that kill.
Nobody has EVER died from going fast, they die from either suddenly slowing down, or being suddenly speeded up.
That's why limiting people to 30mph is utterly stupid, how is having vehicles with a speed difference so great sharing the same road-space going to help? It won't.
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In New Zealand we have restrictions similar to USA { see above post }. Would-be drivers have to pass a theory test, after which they get a learner's licence to drive under instruction. Next stage is the restricted licence, which is a practical test to see if the candidate is safe to drive solo. That is just what it means - no pasengers unless one of them has held a full licence for at least 2 years. Curfew 10 pm to 6 am. It takes 18 months to be permitted to take the full licence test, and that is where most of our youngsters go off the rails. No self-respecting bulletproof teenager is going to refuse to take his / her friends Saturday-night joyriding and street-racing. If you can race to get away from a cop, so much the better for the adrenaline rush. Unfortunately, it does keep the undertakers in business.
At the weekend just past, there was a car show in Christchurch and the police let it be known that patrols would be out in force. Red rag to a bull as far as the street-racing community was concerned. Police actually had teams set up which included vehicle inspectors from the Land Transport Safety Authority, and officials from the Ministry of Justice. 520 arrests, mainly for licence infringements, 36 cars seized by Justice for unpaid fines, 31 cars seized by LTSA for being dangerous. Several who had the funds available paid up on the spot for outstanding fines rather than have their cars seized. That in one town of about a quarter of a million people.
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If the drivers in NZ are anywhere near as bad as Australian drivers, such measures may be necessary (never have I been so glad to be back on UK soil!). However, in the UK, where insurance is compulsory and you won't find an 18y/o driving a 5 litre V8 Holden Commodore, most young people seem to drive 1.1 litre Citroens or suchlike.
The undertakers are kept in business here by young people attempting to drive well beyond their car's capabilities, and their own as a driver. If they choose to remove themselves from the genepool in this way, so much the better for normal people who use the roads as a means of getting from A to B. The unfortunate thing is that they often kill their passengers or other roadusers/pedestrians.
The thing that NowWheels doesn't understand (albeit one of many), is that having a head-on crash at 30mph means that in effect you're hitting a stationary object at 60mph. How do you overcome that? Restrict everyone to 15mph? I can run faster than that. In fact, NW, i think we'll all just run everywhere (although we'll have to wear helmets in case of a high-speed collision) ;-)
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It isn't speed that causes young drivers to have accidents, it's the lack of experience in recognising the approach of hazardous situations.
--
L\'escargot.
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The latest news here in New Zealand tells us that the government are considering compulsory 3rd party insurance as in UK. The newspaper poll I saw had 95% in agreement. This should help reduce our young driver / powerful car problem. Most of the cars in New Zealand are used imports from Japan, and almost all of these have a 180km/h (112 mph) speed limiter as standard. It is of course possible to disable the speed limiting electronically, but the cars come with it built in. This is not at present a requirement, and it is not checked at the six-monthly check equivalent to the MOT.
I live in Christchurch, the city mentioned in an earlier post, and there is definitely a problem with young people and the car culture here. Young people have always craved speed and excitement, and I was no different to anyone else in my youth, which was about 30 years ago. The difference now is that the cars available have about ten times the horsepower that we had in our cars back then. I hope that compulsory insurance may put the brakes on some of this activity, as the number of young people being killed here in New Zealand while taking part in it is much too high.
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