Stephen,
This is what really gets me about the warranty boys, we only talk after a failure....and then we'll blame it on wear and tear.
I'm sure you're looking at all options so there is one I must mention for a replacement engine.
There is only one engine reconditioner I will use in Cambs and they are Ivor Searle at Soham. HJ mentions them on his scratchpad for Gearboxes but they do the lot. As far as I can see they want about £1400+vat for your engine exchange. This would be with a 12mth unlimited mileage warranty and they deliver next day nationwide. I've been over to the workshops and they are very good. Their reputation around here (and nationwide) is excellent.
Have a look at www.ivor-searle.co.uk/index.html
David W [Moderator]
----------------------------
mailto:david_moderator@honestjohn.co.uk
|
|
The favorite get-out clause for (non) warranty companies, is the consequential loss one. So when the bearings fail and the engine self destructs, they turn round and say that they'll pay for the bearings, and that's it. The rest will be up to you. Had this with a CV joint. They said they'd only pay for the rubber boot, as the failure of this had let dirt and water in, thereby causing the joint to fail.
|
|
|
|
Stephen,
You are probably aware that warrantee companies are notorious for finding excuses not to pay out.
Did you buy the warrantee when you bought the vehicle? (I'm assuming that you bought it secondhand, not new). If so, a chat with the supplying dealer might help as warrantee companies will not want to upset the dealers whom they rely upon for generating their business.
If you've had the vehicle for a relatively short time, you could even suggest to the dealer that if the warrantee company won't cough up you will be expecting the dealer to do so.
Either way, keep at the warrantee company. If you can find the office or home address of the area manager (perhaps from the dealer), keep pestering him. Let him know that you are publicising the company's action or inaction. Unfortunately, this is the only way to deal with these people.
|
|
|
I had this problem years ago on an Austin Maxi. The crankshaft thrust bearings were situated between 2 & 3 cylinder and the end float (of the crankshaft) was first diagnosed as a clutch problem. I seem to remember that it was not too difficult a job
to lift the block off the transmission and replace the thrust bearing halves. If the bearings do wear too much,and become too thin, they could, I think, drop into the sump and that, presumably would lead to catastophic engine failure. Would the cost of repair be too much in the case of the Espace and could not the warranty Company be made to see the wisdom (and economy) of thrust bearing replacement ?
|
Thrust washer replacement isn't a huge huge job....yes it's a fair one but not beyond the realms of a competant technician.
We have had similar problems with WH before, that's why we don't use them anymore.....
|
Had a discussion with WH today about a customers car with a leaking compressor. Whe I told them they had to payfor a ne accumulator as I had to retrofit the R134a refrigerant, they said they wouldn't pay for that. I told them it really was a requirement, as specified by Volvo when retrofitting, but they said 'we don't pay for good engineering practice!' That was their exact words, I nearly dropped the phone. I said it's not good practice, it's essential, and they should have thought about that when they offered a warranty on a pre '93 car. No doing, they won't pay.
I think that about sums it up really.
|
|
|
|
Thanks for your comments folks.
The follow up:
1) called around a number of FER approved local engine remanufacturers - or affiliated services. The guys at Ivor Searle ( I think it is) were particularly helpful and knowledgeable. They suggested on a relatively new engine - although with a lot of miles - it would be better to find someone who could repair - at least as the first attempt.
2) calls to a "local" FER app'd place - "Southern Rebore" also v helpful chap there who gave lots of useful info even though he doesn't stand to get much from it. Oh if only more were like this. He put me onto a small garage he has worked with an trusts to put engines back together correctly.
3) contacted this garage "Knox motors" or something and left the car with them. They seem to collect all the jobs like this where main garages want a simpler life - ie just swap the engine in this case.
So basically they will remove the sump cover and inspect.
- If only the thrust washers are gone its around a 12hr job to replace these. The warrantee may pay up if we can show that the washers have failed. I will take up the idea to contact the original garage we bough the car from with the extended warrantee.
- If the washers have worn out the crankshaft too - which is likely, then this garage thought that a replacement crank was not too expensive to puchase and this was the way to go.
- if the wear has gone through the washers on to the engine block, we will either buy a remade engine from Ivor @ around £1400 or a service replacement from Renault @ £2690. The Renault one includes injectors, fuel pump, clutch, flywheel - so is very good value considering that clutch is around £170, flywheel £600, injectors say £1K, fuel pump ?
Basically cars aint cheap - esp this on ... unless they are like our 'banger' Polo.
----------------------------------
Stephen Khoo
www.khoosys.net
|
Ok the garage has now inspected the car and found that the thrust washers have actually fallen off and one was lying in the bottom of the sump!
They can\'t see any damage on the crankshaft or block, but when they asked a crankshaft specialist about it, they found that this was a known problem. Basically what happens is that the crankshaft wears and this leads to the thrust washers coming loose. These then fall out as in our case. This seems very odd as one would normally expect the thrust washers to do the brunt of the wearing. So having lost the thrust washers, the crankshaft the will have worn the block badly.
The upshot is that I need a new engine.
Their opinion was that this should not really happen on an engine which has been serviced regularly such as ours and the fact that the crank has worn first indicates something of a manufacturing defect. Clearly something to take up with Renault.
David, I believe you had some kind of correspondence with the person who had a similar problem with his Espace on this forum, and I understand in his case that Renault went some of the way towards the costs of his new engine. Any information anyone has with similar would clearly help make the case to Renault.
----------------------------------
Stephen Khoo
www.khoosys.net
|
Stephen,
I have spent many years in diesel engine design and have never heard of such a thing as wear of the thrust washer bearing faces on the crankshaft !!
Was there any indication that the thrust washers had been fitted the wrong way round, i.e. with the soft face adjacent to the cylinder block and the steel face against the crankshaft? (Rotation marks on the steel face would be sufficient evidence of this.) If so, you surely must have a good argument for a contribution from Renault. 'Hush money' I would call it.
|
I forgot one rather remote possibility, that grit or casting sand in the engine could become embedded in the soft bearing face of the thrust washers and act as a grinding medium on the crankshaft. Again, inspection of the thrust washers should reveal this if it is, in fact, what has happened. However I would have thought that the chances of this were very low.
If casting sand was indeed the problem then it would still be a manufacturing fault of course, but dirty oil might be more difficult to prove as an engine build or Renault agent servicing fault
|
|
|
The straight six Triumph engine of many years ago was well known for this fault (it had tiny little weedy thrust washers), but I'm surprised to see it on a modern engine. Most of them now have the thrust washers incorporated in one of the main bearing shells, so they can't fall out. Lubrication failure? Or a life of city driving, long periods in stationary traffic with first gear engaged and the clutch in, placing lots of load on the thrust bearings when the oil is hot and thin?
Richard Hall
bangernomics.tripod.com
|
Richard,
The Triumph 2.5 and TR5/6 were certainly weak so far as the thrust washers were concerned, but did this ever result in wear of the crankshaft?
My family have owned 8 of these big six Triumphs, and I have had my present 2.5 for 27 years, but I have never known a crankshaft to be worn in this way. I suppose it could if the thrust washers are fitted back-to-front (which is possible) but I haven't come across it.
Good point about riding the clutch in traffic. Isn't it incredible that you can sit behind a car at a level crossing or in a stationary line of traffic for perhaps ten minutes and every so often the car in front makes a little movement forward as the driver rides the clutch, and then blinds you with the brake lights as he/she pulls up again!
|
I was thinking of the Triumph engine more in terms of having thrust washers drop into the sump, just like this Renault engine. I think the crank does wear though - on one engine I fixed an endfloat problem by replacing the standard thrust washers with oversize ones to take up the play.
Richard Hall
bangernomics.tripod.com
|
|
|
|
|
Stephen
There may be a problem with these engine in the thrust washer design, but there was also some discussion on this site a while back about clutch thrust bearings. Basically, the advice was that it was one component that could be treated gently. That bearing's load is taken by the crankshaft thrust bearings, so that's another good reason to treat the clutch gently. I wonder though if your cars early life had lots of traffic use, and spent long periods with the clutch pedal depressed?
Regards
John S
|
I would be grateful for details of the trader - just to build any case I might have with Renault.
----------------------------------
Stephen Khoo
www.khoosys.net
|
|
|
|
|
