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I think that the last post is offensive to monkeys.
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may i refer you all to the excellent guide by dishonestjohn:
www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/index.htm?news_id=380
DISHONEST JOHN'S GUIDE TO SERVICE SCAMS
Sun, 16 Sep 2001
(A RIP-OUT RIP-OFF GUIDE FOR WORKSHOP MANAGERS TO HELP MAXIMISE SERVICE REVENUES)
After extensive research, Dishonest John presents 26 top tips for dodgy service managers who prefer to put profits before punters.
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?v=e&t=42...3
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?v=e&t=36...3
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I wouldn't put it past some dealers to keep a well worn set of pads and disks to show to anyone who queries how worn their's were. Trading Standards used to do sting operations from time to time, but I haven't heard of one for a while.
Unless you're a capable DIYer then I think people should should only buy cars on which a reasonably priced service contract is available. VAG, as it happens, have a scheme that covers any VAG car and it's a reasonable (not cheap, mind) deal. Once the car is out of warranty then it should go a trusted independant.
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I hadn't seen that bit of ancient, libellous, garbage before and I don't usually disagree with HJ - but that says more about how out-of-touch with modern realities he is than anything else. Perhaps he'd like to do a similar piece on the legal profession?
If that's what he really thinks of the mostly honest people who struggle to do a professional job under almost impossible circumstances; then it's useful to know that he holds us in such contempt.
Why will there be no competent people to fix your cars' problems in a few years - because of pieces like that.
Stereotyping the whole industry as crooks undermines the efforts of all those that struggle long and hard to present a more accurate perception and virtually guarantees no inflow of the desperately needed bright new talent.
Shoe retailing should soon be a growth industry.
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.. hadn't seen that bit of ancient, libellous, garbage before ..
sorry screwloose, i've let the cat out of the bag. maybe i should have followed the advice at the end of that article:
Keep This Under Your Hat
Keep this document firmly under lock and key, preferably in the safe. Never leave it lying around on a desk. Preferably, commit it to memory then destroy it. Do not let it fall into the wrong hands or your game is up. Do not discuss it with your wife or girlfriend. Remember, careless talk blows blags.
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"a professional job under almost impossible circumstances "what with a car hoist, a box of spanners and an air wrench the jobs already half done for you!!!
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The trouble with it is....a great big chunk of the motoring public (me included) don't really know the score with what goes on in a garage.....so we're reliant on honesty.
I don't mind paying a fair price and am willing to pay for preventative work as well as what is essential (although i'd accept that a helluva lot of people don't think the same).
The problem is whenever a garage/mechanic does rip someone off and it becomes public knowledge.......it affects the confidence of the rest of us, unless you have already got a bone fide rock solid relationship with one already.
On a previous thread recently a poster who is a mechanic stated he didn't like punters marking the old bits to make sure they were changed during a service....whereas i think that's a good idea if you're using someone for the first time. I got the impression the posting mechanic was one of the 'good guys' but was uncomfortable with the implication that he 'might' be dishonest... what else are we to do to ensure we're not had over?...because unfortunately some people are unscrupulous and you won't know until it's happened.
My own method of 'marking' the parts, when i used an Indie for the first time was to get my established mechanic i use for my old car, to go through the newer one thoroughly so i knew what was right and wrong before submitting it to the Indie. Cost me twice, but at least i was comfortable i knew the score.......(needed the Indie as they are specialists for my marque and have all the diagnostics).
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I think a VW dealer would be far better qualified than a branch of Kwikfit to decide whether the discs on a Sharan needed replacing.
--
L\'escargot.
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You can of course quite easily measure the thickness of your discs with a suitable instrument and compare the results with the car's basic specification.
I agree though that if you are going to crawl about under the car with instruments, or pay someone else to do it just to check, you might as well go the whole hog and service the thing yourself.
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About 18 years ago, I used to sell a software suite for motor traders. It was priced to appeal to main dealers rather than independents (i.e. expensive).
One of the things it could be set to do was to add a percentage the list price of every item sold. Or to give a slightly different percentage discount per item sold from that shown on the invoice. Or to add a percentage to the total over and above the sum of the items on the invoice.
It was also set so that if a customer ever queried it, you could set a flag for that customer so that it never did that for them again. You just said, "Computer's playing up, I'll run another one off." The invoice would be correct and they would never see the problem again. Think what an extra 1/4 or 1/2% on every invoice would add to the profitability of a dealer.
I know that the company is still selling software into the motor trade, albeit under a different name from when I worked for them. It doesn't appear in HJ's list, but it's there.
You heard it here first. Check your invoices.
V
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You can of course quite easily measure the thickness of your discs with a suitable instrument ..
i have just fitted brembo discs to my car. these have wear indicators on them so that you can check by sight, and avoid being conned.
www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyId=9041
www.petrolheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?f=57&t=132...5
it still does does stop a mot tester prematurely declaring "in their unbiased subjective judgement" that your disks are badly "corroded" and in need of immediate replacement.
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all very interesting .. now anyone able to answer my original question?
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now anyone able to answer my original question?
yes.
the answer is "no".
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Screwloose dispenses good advice on here and is sticking up for his profession, being on the honest side of it. Have a look through the technican section to confirm this
Why trigger the swear filter on your own site when your policy is not to swear?
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I have some sympathy with Screwloose's view because it seems that the motor trade can never win.
OTOH I do know for a fact that 'friction products' are a favoured way to generate revenue. The mark-up of friction products is higher than for most parts, and my own experience is that most customers will not decline the suggestion of brake work because its viewed as a safety issue - most will agree to the work being done.
The service and parts managers at the dealerships will both be on some kind of bonus/commission structure (as will the tech doing the work) so there is every incentive to 'find' work, and in fact there will be a lot of pressure to keep the workshop busy.
Here is an absolutely truthfull account of something I encountered recently...
Old chap in my village, and long-time family friend, has a Golf just out of warranty and due its first MoT. He asks me to check it over and take it for an MoT for him. I find a split CV boot (common on recent VWs - the material is too stiff) so I replace it. Rest of car looks perfect (about 18k on it). I take it to my mate Terry's for an MoT and it passes no problem.
Old chap then takes it to VW agent 25mi away for a service (basically £150 oil & filter change).
Anyway, about a month later his wife knocks on my door. They have had a message left on their answerphone that the Golf needs some brake repairs - do I know anything about it??
I listen to their answerphone message which goes thus:
"Hello Mr ABC, this is Jane from XYZ Volkswagen. We've noticed that there is still some outstanding repair work to be done to the brakes on your Golf. If you call me back on 012345678 then I'll book it in for you and we can get the work done".
My first thought was that there had been a recall. So I rang the dealer back on their behalf. The statement I got from them was, "Well, at the last service we noticed that there was some corrosion on the brake discs of Mr ABC's car and they need to be replaced".
Now, I know for sure that those discs were perfectly alright, nothing more than the normal 'crust' of corrosion at the periphery of the disc. My guess is that the workshop was having a slow month and "Jane" had been instructed to trawl through the previous month's invoices to drum up some brake work. In my view this is very close to the line, if not over it.
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Aprilia,
With your connections in the trade i would have thought you would have been honour bound to have called the service manager to account and got trading standards involved !
I am totally with screwloose.
How any of you actually allow a garage to touch your cars amazes me.
I estimate that less than 10% of the whole trade would even entertain these scams let alone do them.
Any good garage (main dealer or independant) will have enough work to do they wont need to ruin their reputation for such practice. And if the practice is found trading standards should be involved. No question whatsoever!
If you ring up your garage and say "my car needs xyz doing when can you do it?" and they say "bring it now" means they dont have enough work! Ask yourself why? The 1 that says I cant get to it until 2/3/4 days time is the 1 you want!
But as always in this trade everything is expected to be done immediate, cheaply, to the highest standards with the car off the road for the absoloute minimum. Expecting such is just asking for problems imo!
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Aprilia With your connections in the trade i would have thought you would have been honour bound to have called the service manager to account and got trading standards involved !
Not my car, and not really my place to get involved I think.
Part of the problem (and there IS a problem) is that once you put staff on commissions/bonus/target then everyone starts looking for work. There is so much pressure on these guys. I know for a fact that part of the management training for a large fast-fit chain is the premise that you can take £300 off every customer that comes into the depot. This is a fact - its the way they work. Main dealers are not a lot different. Once you get your head around the fact that cars are really 'commodity items' like washing machines, but with wheels, and the dealer is there to make money from you and not be your friend then you are less likely fall victim to uneccessary work. If you can find an independent guy who has been around for a while and has a reputation to keep up then stick with him - he wants you to come back next time and build his business by 'word of mouth'.
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Once you get your head around the fact that cars are really 'commodity items' like washing machines but with wheels and the dealer is there to make money from you and not be your friend then you are less likely fall victim to uneccessary work. >>
What a damning indictment of the industry. I don't want to be a friend of the dealer, but i do want to be a valued customer. A relationship where there is respect on both sides. If so, i'll go back and will keep on spending my hard earned cash there. If not i'll go elsewhere.
If i thought that my local dealer was trying its' best to rip me off for anything they could get away with.......i wouldn't buy my next car there.
That would be silly on their part.....a £300 rip off versus £25 grand plus car purchase?
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What a damning indictment of the industry. I don't want to be a friend of the dealer, but i do want to be a valued customer. A relationship where there is respect on both sides. If so, i'll go back and will keep on spending my hard earned cash there. If not i'll go elsewhere.
Exactly! very well put Westpig. It relates to independants too although generally the customers have built up a friendship over the years (and trust too)
I have no time for anyone that lowers the standards/reputations of the motor trade.
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>>That would be silly on their part.....a £300 rip off versus £25 grand plus car purchase?
Except that price is not the same as profit.
As I understand it the profit on a new car is low. Dealerships make their money on servicing. Maybe someone in the business could confirm?
How many cars do they sell again how many services?
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Except that price is not the same as profit. As I understand it the profit on a new car is low. Dealerships make their money on servicing. Maybe someone in the business could confirm? How many cars do they sell again how many services?
Why is a dealer there?..........I thought it was to sell new cars, appointed by a manufacturer, with 2nd hand cars and the rest of it as a side line.
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Generally speaking.
Dealers sell cars at a loss (if you include the cost of the building/marketing etc which most do). Doesnt always show the true answer though. Try buying a car at less than their cost + x %. You will only be able to do it when they need to move x cars to meet the next rebate target from the manufacturer!
Servicng tends to cover its costs but not really make large profits.
parts departments (well all business have to make a profit somewhere!).
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> parts departments (well all business have to make a profit somewhere!).
if parts have the most profitibility...then why do all the garages i've ever been to employ the most miserable sods going?
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My guess is that the workshop was having a slow month and "Jane" had been instructed to trawl through the previous month's invoices to drum up some brake work. In my view this is veryclose to the line if not over it.
>>
it's nowhere near the line........someone well qualified has already checked the part, not deemed it to be in any way a problem.......and the dealer then wants it back for remedial work.
that is plain wrong.......it's fiddling. Simple as that....
If you thought the part was getting near the mark and should be kept an eye on, you'd have told your customer wouldn't you and given them a rough idea of when it would need doing. If the dealer was then over-cautious with an elderly driver, then that might have been understandable. this isn't anywhere near that is it?
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Not my car, and not really my place to get involved I think.
Sorry but I have to disagree with you. You looked at the car and gave the customer 1 opinion. They did another ! Who is right/wrong? If you were wrong then it just shows mistakesare possible. If they were wrong then they are attempting to repair a car/ charge customer accordingly very incorrectly. Way over the line !
You had a duty and a responsibility to be involved or help the owner to get Trading standards involved. Failing to do so may even have put "some doubt" over your work/opinion by the very person you were attemptiing to protect!
Yes I know certain organisations "look" for work but not the busy garages !
The problem is wear is a subjective opinion and 2 people WILL have 2 diferent opinions. Safety should never be compromised but nor should integrity !
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Obviously there is a bit more detail to the story than I can reasonably write out. Basically I had checked the brakes before they went for MoT and they were fine. I also watched it on the ATL (brake meters) whilst chatting to my mate who does the MoT and they were right up over 90% and balanced.
When I rang the VW dealer I asked exactly what was corroded etc. (i.e. front/back) but they couldn't tell me, only that there was a note on their database that there was "corrosion on the discs". I then went to look at the discs but could not see any evidence of this at all - they were as good a set of clean discs as you could expect at 18k mi.. I asked the old boy if they said anything at the service, but apparently they didn't, or at least he didn't remember. There is only so much you can do - I am not some kind of one-man-mission to clean up the motor repair business.
A month after a service its easy for them to wriggle out - e.g. 'Oh, there was some surface corrosion, but he must have done some hard braking and cleared it, etc.". |I really do think it was a 'fishing expedition'.
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if parts have the most profitibility...then why do all the garages i've ever been to employ the most miserable sods going?
I wish I knew that answer. They are the very reason imo that motor factors do so well! But nobody I know in any factors would work for a main dealer !
Money presumably; but I hate most of my local dealers because of their parts staff! Rarely trust them on the phone and its so expensive to keep going to them ! (Somebody has to pay for my time if I am collecting parts for cars or so my accountant says !)
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I hadn't seen that bit of ancient libellous garbage before and I don't usually disagree with HJ - but that says more about how out-of-touch with modern realities he is than anything else. Perhaps he'd like to do a similar piece on the legal profession? If that's what he really thinks of the mostly honest people who struggle to do a professional job under almost impossible circumstances; then it's useful to know that he holds us in such contempt.
Nicely put Screwloose; arrived at the same conclusion myself a long time ago! He does indeed seem to offer some strange advice at times!
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Don't blame yb for defending his colleagues but he idealises them - perhaps thinking more of them are like him than really are - and I agree emphatically with Aprilia and HJ. I have lost count of the number of times I've been told utter rubbish by professional mechanics of all sorts - they include gas fitters, plumbers and electricians - who imagine someone with a posh accent and scruffy appearance must be an utter fool, and who therefore imagine that this borderline criminality on their part is perfectly all right.
I have no patience with these snivelling crooks. And there are more and more of them.
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yb and Screwloose, I meant.
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... told utter rubbish by professional mechanics of all sorts - they include gas fitters, plumbers and electricians ....I have no patience with these snivelling crooks...
and remember that some of them have statutory powers to condemn your machinary/electrics (mot tester, corgi gas-fitter, "part p" building regs electrician).
as aprilia says, the brake disks "corrosion" ruse is so difficult to challeng. it relies entirely on someones subjective opinion and/or assesment and there is no statutory definition of what is classed as excessive corrosion.
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and remember that some of them have statutory powers to condemn your machinary/electrics (mot tester corgi gas-fitter "part p" building regs electrician).
As you say Dalglish. The system gives huge power to annoy, and to cost money to people who may not be able to afford it, to 'qualified individuals' who ought to be in jail or shovelling coal or manure, but who have forgotten, actually, how to work if they ever knew the meaning of the word. Why bother when you can easily rip people off?
I don't want to exaggerate. Some of the crooks back off fast when confronted, others have the decency to look ashamed of themselves. And perhaps they aren't that high a percentage. Twenty or thirty maybe.
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I am by no means suggesting that all dealer or mechanics are crooks (the vast majority are not) - but they are out there and a fancy frontage does not guarantee that you'll get good service.
When my father and I had our garage we had a pretty good idea of who the good guys and bad guys were. Its a fairly small town so news travels fast. There were quite a few repairers who would spring up, operate for a couple of years and the fold up. Sometimes they were just bandits, others times they were just incompetent - and in some respects these are the most difficult to deal with becasue they can be honest and try hard, but just haven't got the marbles for the job. IME 90% of garages are poor at diagnostics, especially anything electronic, there's only a treasured few are really clued up on the modern stuff. Some kind of certification for motor techs, as is the case in Germany, Austria etc would be a good idea IMHO. At the moment anyone can throw on a pair of overalls and start work on your braking system.
Whenever you're dealing with technical matters that the average punter doesn't understand then there is always the possibility of an easy 'killing' and some are just too greedy to resist.
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Trouble is , once you have done the circuit round these incompetents and leg lifters you are left frustrated, with a very sour taste in your mouth and a dent in your wallet.
In many respects I am somewhat of a perfectionist. I have had work done by many trades and have unfortunately found that I end up tidying or redoing a job to MY satisfaction.
There seems to be a 'that will do' attitude. Craftsmanship and care is a thing of the past. Its a matter of doing the minimum of work in the minimum of time and moving on.
Its come to the stage now that I have to subtley inform people of my expectations and I am prepared to pay that bit extra if they spend a bit more time getting it spot on.
Trouble is I have found you have to keep a very careful eye on trades people True craftsmen (and women) are few and far between. Or maybe I have just been unlucky. Or maybe my expectations are just to high. But if I can do it why can't they?
Tradespeople definately in Room 101 in my book.
Right off my soapbox and give the bike a blast there is a strange orange thing in the sky that needs some investigation.
--
Fullchat
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This is the reason I could never go into business on my own -- many have suggested it (I'm an IT support specialist), but (a) I can't look people in the eye and lie to them (indeed my problem when doing jobs on the side is I don't like taking people's money), and (b) I get hurt when accused of anything untoward.
Unfortunately support staff of all persuasions who go into business on their own need brass and unfortunately this attracts the crooks as well as the honest ones. It gets to the point where if I find a mechanic who's honest -- he doesn't even need to be all that competent, just honest and reasonably-priced -- I'll stick by him.
Far too many sharks around that try it on.
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'qualified individuals' who ought to be in jail or shovelling coal or manure, but who have forgotten, actually, how to work if they ever knew the meaning of the word
Such contempt of the trade can only be rewarded by being excessivley charged.
I can only assume you would never let anybody touch your car! Perhaps a bicycle would be more to your needs?
You get treated by how you treat people too
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"Parts departments employ miserable sods"-all the ones I've dealt with are excellent but then most of them have a stream of people coming in and asking for the bit that fits on the blue bit at the back of the car,can't remember which side it is and it's for a 1991 Escort-or is it 1993 and Oh-I don't know what trim level or capacity and then be asked how to fit it.I usually get stuck behind a queue of these people.
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I saw the comments by HJ in the DT column yesterday and it put me in mind of my own recent experience. I bought a toyota corolla diesel earlier this year with 10.7 k on the clock and 2.5 years old. As it was a new car to me and a service was due I put it into the local Toyota dealer for a service just to make sure all was OK. The reported that the front pads had 1500-2000 miles left in them and the discs needed replacing. They quoted me nearly 400 pounds to do the job. I was so amazed at this that when I got home I took a front wheel off to take a closer look. Now, 8k miles later I have bought a set of pads and am about to dismantle this morning and check over in antipation of our holiday next week when we go to France. Initial look see suggests that my thin pads and knackered discs might still soldier on for a little while yet! I will take the car back there for the next service if only to see what they have to say this time, I might find it necessary to mention their previous advice as well.
MGs
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Some kind ofcertification for motor techs as is the case in Germany Austria etc would be a good idea IMHO. At the moment anyone can throw on a pair of overalls and start work on your braking system.
I've always wondered why in this country we are so shy of properly organised craft trades with required qualifications and independent quality review. It would I think make many of the activities prone to cowboy/cheap work much more attractive to new trainees if they knew there was a body keeping the riff raff out. In that way you do have some quality control and sanction. This is what happens with other professions eg accountants, actuaries, lawyers, doctors etc.
I understand from friends in mainly northern European countries (and Australia funnily enough) that they just cannot conceive that we put up with things like plumbers or builders who literally can start work without any formal training/certification/licencing.
I am just so glad I don't actually own a car so have avoided the usual dance about when trying to get something fixed and being told all sorts of stories as to what might be wrong.
To me it seems wrong that a Service manager is incentivised to make a bill bigger. Fine incentivise them to bring in more customers or retain existing customers but to try to max out the bill when it it relates to repair seems plain wrong.
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Just remember that the car you buy may have had it's brakes worked on by a totally unqualified DIY'er.
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I'm unqualified but I've been working on my own and friends' cars for over 30 years. I reckon I can fit pads or discs as well or better than the trainee that the dealer will probably use to fit them.
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What frustrates me the most is that, in my experience, dealers try to sell you something you don?t need, rather than innovate to make their money - as other industries need to.
I don?t want something for nothing, and am happy to pay a premium price for a premium service, but utterly utterly hate paying for something that doesn?t need doing.
How can £80/hour be good value to fit brake pads and wiper blades? Perhaps they should have tiered rates as to the person working on the car? The senior and most qualified people doing the difficult diagnostic work maybe paid a higher rate, but at least diagnosing the problem quickly and accurately.
In my experience industries are driven by the client, and until the client is prepared to pay more, or put more effort into procuring services etc, then you end up in a situation such as this. (Much of the conflict in the construction industry seems to have been solved by changes from the client side.)
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I think I've been ripped-off/defrauded following a visit to a main Audi dealer with my (2003) A4 Avant Quattro. I recently purchased the car and decided to have a main dealer service to maintain it's service history. Whilst having a long life service I was told the rear anti-roll bar was cracked and that the front brakes needed to be replaced (discs and pads).
I had the anti-roll bar replaced immediately out of concern for my safety but the discs I felt confident I could replace myself. Having had the car back the brakes certainly do not need replacing - in fact the pads look nearly new and the disks are in good condition.
I contacted the dealer I purchased the car from (an independent) who said he had it inspected prior to being sold and the work stated did not need to be done (I'd already spent the money with Audi by this stage). I have in writing now that the roll-bar did not need replacing although there was some slight cracks on the rubber bushings of the anti-roll bar which were purely superficial. I've also been educated by a third party about the bar and am now convinced that it did not need replacing.
Where do I stand with a complaint? Who should I complain to? Am already trying Audi UK. Is there anyone else worth contacting? Finally, do you think I have any chance in seeing some or all of my money back? Thanks, Tony
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When you say 'anti roll bar cracked' I assume you mean the bushes and not the bar itself? For the bar to crack would be extemely unusual to say the least, in fact I've never heard of it. The bushes do tend to wear and break up, but they are cheap and straightforward to replace.
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I'm sorry but the motor trade is imo its own worst enemy.
Run a proper certified schem for garages? Well one was run in the 1960s iirc.. and it fell into disrepute.
Throw out the dodgy characters so they are not certified? Joke.
IF - it was intent on building customer confidence.. and enjoying the premium attached to that... but no it as an industry largely does not care...
Look at the number of complaints on second hand car salepeople...
I don't trust anyone in the business as a matter of principle.
Nor do I trust service people from a former nationalised gas company. They tell lies.
I expect fair treatment .. instead I get obvious ripoff attempts.
Any attempt to defend these industries is bound to fail cos there is no effective regulation... and no evident wish to have any from the industry itself.
So as far as I am concerned as a customer it's caveat emptor and use them only when I must .. an dthen get several quotes (and they still attempt to screw you by "omitting " things in error)
I am underwhelmed. It's 1950s style of business.. and in general the industry deserves the appalling reputation it has in the eyes of many customers.
madf
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This thread is about main dealers for the most part. In general it has to be said that because of their overheads and perceived commercial power, main dealer networks in this country tend to be expensive for what they offer, sometimes very very expensive, in an offhand and greedy sort of way. People have to go to them to maintain the warranties on their cars, and the company car ethic of the sixties-to-nineties encouraged the attitude. So many people weren't paying their own costs, and didn't care. Of course this is a generalisation. Some networks and some individual dealers are much better or worse than others. Cost is one thing, negligent work quite another.
Because it is 'corporate', though, there is something impersonal about main dealer pickpocketing. Most owners are just intimidated by it and pay up. But the fact is that these policies are applied, often quite heartlessly and ruthlessly, by individual human beings. It is the self-righteous effrontery and dishonesty of these individuals, who can also of course be found in the independent trade, that makes me hot under the collar, and causes me to use polemical language that may have given offence. That was certainly not my intention.
Nothing I have said is a slander on mechanics or the motor trade in general (although like others I am quite critical of the manufacturing industry), and I know good garages I happily recommend to people. Having come across quite a few real pink fluffies over the years doesn't make me stride into garages insulting and suspecting the people who work there. Until they ask for it of course.
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Think i posted a post in the "Bye-Bye" thread that should have gone in here?.
Billy
Shifted over for you billy - PU
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carambo - i only asked a question (remember that?) and someone leaves in a huff
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BB
I tried - I even spent two hours writing it.
And then I messed up getting it past the Log-in trap and lost the lot.... Haven?t time to do it all again so here?s just one bit.
?The Lambda Laugh
If the diagnostic interrogator and an emissions test isolate the exhaust Lambda sensor as the source of the problem and simple cleaning would cure it, instruct your fitters to replace it. Though Halfords sell universal fit lambda sensors for £30, some manufacturer prices can be very high, especially for the more complex sensors in Toyota Carina E and Avensis models. Always go for the maximum obtainable revenue, never for the minimum needed to cure the problem.?
1/ Code readers/gas analysers rarely give such definite indications in the real world. Interpretation is everything.
2/ How do you clean a component that operates at near red heat? Clean it with what, exactly?
3/ Clean what off it? In the rare cases of oil residue fouling the sensor [from a worn/faulty engine] that?s only a symptom [and the least of the problems.] Cleaning it would be pointless.
4/ No professional should/would fit Halfords components. Sub-standard ?universal? oxygen sensors cause more problems than they cure; while they might have sufficed on some older systems, they often cause incorrect fuelling on modern ones and an irate customer returns with the MIL on and a long-term fuel trim code stored.
5/ Toyota/Carina E oxygen sensors are titania based, not zirconia like the universal-fit sensors. Trying to fit a completely wrong sensor type will likely short-circuit and ruin the ECU as the titania ones have a regulated voltage feed.
So; what sort of good advice is that?
Scrwloose moved it in here to try and untangle the two connected threads. I lost it for a while by attaching it to another Post - Don't ask. - PU
{Some subject headers changed from "bye bye" to the main header - DD}
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Life is becoming too complicated in all areas. Moggy Minor, Best bitter, stockings not tights, no speed scameras, no cctv and less of the (D) Richard Heads that make our lives so blooming awful.
We don't actually NEED any of it........I'm going to me shed..........................MD
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In the August 2007 edition of "Which?" there is a centre spread on precisely this subject (sloppy service from garages), entitled: "Secret Services".
They are equally hard on each of the types of outlet tested, which were from Independent through Related Franchise to Main Dealer, and the following QUOTE just about sums it up!..
"Its a lottery whether you get honest, competent servicing or ineptitude and deceit".
On the next pages there's an interesting feature entitled:"Facts about Fuel".
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Cheshire County Council's Trading Standards dept runs a Golden Spanner scheme:
www.goldenspanner.com but I don't think it gets much publicity locally.
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Cheers for that Screwloose, very interesting. If you do get time to write up the rest of it again, I would certainly be an avid reader (as a tip, the post a reply page times out, so if you're doing a long one, always a good idea to CTRL-C before clicking post, just in case.)
I have to say though, I still don't see why the whole mechanic industry should take offence at it. Might be out-of-date or even plain incorrect, but it's still clearly a warning about the crooked section of the industry, not a claim that the whole industry is crooked.
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Been on this site for a while and have come to the conclusion that it is a motoring site for those who want to pick at the trade rather than be helped by it. Especially having seen the bit by HJ about trade rip offs.
If that's the case, perhaps you should have left the site six years ago, when that was written?
Can't imagine why a guide for "dodgy service managers" should be such an affront anyway.
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Can't imagine why a guide for "dodgy service managers" should be such an affront anyway.
Because they're fake. Most are laughable, wouldn't work or simply don't exist on modern cars.
But the readers don't know that it's entertainment, presented as fact, that insults and demeans the whole trade.
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But Screwloose, to be perfectly fair, in the point you refuted in the other thread, I think what HJ was driving at wasn't that peop[le should use Halfords universal Lambda sensors, but that manufacturers and/or dealer networks sell the correct parts at grossly inflated prices. Because they have the consumer over a barrel. Marxists call this 'radical dependence'.
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Lud
My reading of it was a suggested scam that expensive Toyota sensors should be replaced with cheap universal ones and then charged-out at full price.
As with many of the others [OK; some are obvious and trivial] that alleged "scam" was made up; it physically couldn't happen - unfortunately 99.9% of the readers won't know that and because it's coming from HJ, they'll believe it does - and frequently.
So the; "All garages are crooks and thieves" idea is powerfully reinforced to the detriment of all the honest people in the trade.
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But the readers don't know that it's entertainment presented as fact that insults and demeans the whole trade.
Screwloose,
I fail to see how it demeans the whole trade. It is aimed at the dodgy herberts who rip people off. Surely a decent mechanic/dealer would welcome the dodgy being found out and taken out of the system. Yes there might be some pain before some gain, but on the whole it would be a good thing...wouldn't it?
I don't understand why the decent ones would want to support the dodgy ones.......unless of course the whole game has become so flawed that accepted practices of dubiousness has become the norm or are not frowned upon in the manner they should be? I do not know whether this IS the case, because i do not speak from knowledge, but query the automatic support.
For what it's worth, i've never had a problem with a mechanic or a dealer's workshop in over 25 years of motoring, but some of that could be put down to decent research, a little knowledge of cars and a fair degree of pleasant pedantry.
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I think i got the pertinent posts over from "Bye Bye", Running two threads on what is ultimately the same subject is too confusing on a Sunday evening. - PU
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I don't wish to particularly defend or to attack the trade with this post, but, the general level of automotive ignorance displayed by many members of the public does make it all too easy for unscrupuous types to pull the wool over their eyes. Even reading something as vague as a Haynes manual would give them at least some idea.
Number_Cruncher
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Number_Cruncher: Even reading something as vague as a Haynes manual would give them at least some idea.
I heartily agree with the sentiment. But...
To defend Haynes, they may not be as comprehensive as a factory manual, where that is available to the 'man in the street', but are a very good first step to carrying out maintenance that will save the home mechanic from many of the practices mentioned in HJ's guide. I wouldn't class them as vague, unless you are thinking of some of their general guides to servicing.
In one case I am familiar with, the Haynes manual contains around the same number of errors as the factory-produced manual, but different ones. Nothing life-threatening, just occasionally confusing.
I have used a Haynes manual or similar for every car I have owned, over 35 years of home maintenance, and they have been well worth the money spent on them, and the money saved by doing it myself.
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Its a shame that those in the trade who are regulars here think that they are being tarred with the same brush when cowboy tactics are mentioned, we ll know that there are cowboys out there and surely it should be in the trade's universal interstest to oust them.
Hence while the line taken by HJ in the pages posted by Dalglish is a little too light hearted the principal of helping the public recognise scams is surely a good one ?
As in any conversation including a bunch of blokes down the pub there will always be opposing views therefore it is not necessary to walk out just because you dont agree with the landlord, eh YB?
Furthermore middle ground is established by being a balance of the view expressed, walking out simply shift the middle ground away from your point of view.
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from "bye bye" thread - c&p'd here as the other thread is now locked.
From what I hear, HJ's post has upset a great many in the trade........ certainly hasn't impressed or won any friends.
It will bite too... slating dealers = sends people to independents for servicing = dealers profit margins reduce = manufacturers have to up their subsidy's in order to keep dealers afloat in order to retain the critical mass of outlets.
Wouldn't suprise me if there isn't a significant drop-off in HJ Road Tests over the next few months while the trade responds in earnest...
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Reading this has struck a cord!
Son's Corsa has been serviced (up to end of warranty) at local main dealer. 18 months ago whyen servicing they rang to say it needed two tyres - I told him to say no as I knew the tyres were OK.
Tyres are still on the car - still OK as vouched for by the Tyre company who check his works car park and leave slips on the car saying they are either OK or need changing! Wife has been giving me grief for 18 months as she would rather trust the trade "expert" than her chartered mechanical engineer husband with a depth gauge - nice to be proved right in the end!
My daughter's Corsa is serviced at the same dealer (just leaving warranty) - she is moving out and packing. She offered me three small cans of multilube on Saturday saying ".... always leave a can in the car when they service it and I won't use it"
Will ask her to show me the receipt tonight - guess the car won't be going back!
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Then there was my cambelt situation, where the supplying main dealer tried to double up the labour for a new waterpump fitting, while stripped for the cambelt.
Waterpump would have just been sitting there exposed as the belt and covers would be off during the change. When challenged as to why a 3 hour labour charge would be attached to doing the pump, service reception said " we have to refill the cooling system"
They were knowingly trying to charge the book price for a new waterpump, which would have needed the cambelt/covers stripdown if done alone.
Of couse it went elsewhere as I was ready for the potential scam, but how many outside an enthusiasts forum would be aware.
It sometimes seems the whole garage trade is bent and its just a matter of degree. A little bit of mark up here or there,an odd pound or two gained, now and then, ( sump washer £1 +vat) ranging to doing expensive work that does not need doing. Or worse.......
As a kid, my fathers car had its battery `exchanged` by the local garage, you should have seen the speed at which they put it back ( off one of their own cars) when he *confronted* them.
An Aunt broke down in an old Austin, (exhaust fell off.) at a time when not many women drove, (1950s) it was miles away, left at the mercy of a small town garage and a week later when she returned she was sure the actual engine had been exchanged, the `new` one burnt oil and `looked` different.
I could go on, but in the context of how things have been (and still are) HJ is to be complimented in at least raising the issue in the consumers interest.
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Just to add to my above post,
I had a Maestro Diesel about 10 years ago and the heater motor would only run at full speed.
It needed a new resistor pack but it was expensive as the dash had to come out to get to it and i think the pack itself was around £120.
I worked out I could fit ballast resisters under the bonnet to drop the current to get the other two speeds, without taking the dash out.
I costed the required ( general) ballast resistors at around £13 in total, from auto an elecrical specialist, I then rang another auto electrical place telling them of the problem and of the Rover cost for the original being ( approx: memory:) £120. They said " we can do the alternative resistors for £110"
Yes, they were trying a £97 mark up on the £13 items....... same product number. I actually said, " code ***" he, "yes" me, " I can undercut that price by £97" There was silence at his end and then he hung up.
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I was very pleasantly surprised by the Renault dealer who did the last service on the Scenic.
Reported front pads down to "about 40%", and lip on front discs, so both unlikely to make it to the next service, but didn't press to replace them now - said to just keep an eye on it and bring it back in whenever I wanted for a check and an honest opinion. When I checked the brakes afterwards, they were exactly right. Next time, if they tell me something needs doing urgently, I'm more inclined to believe them. Service came to within a pound of their estimate as well, and car was returned washed, valeted and with a good old freebie stinky air freshener dangling from the mirror. They'd even greased the door hinges and latches. Oil was clean, filter had clearly been replaced, and the car ran superbly. Offered to let me see the old filters and bits removed from the car. Cannot reasonably ask for more. Great service!
The Peugeot dealer we used at my old company to maintain our fleet were a total disgrace. Work was constantly invented, and with a fleet manager who knew nothing about how a car worked, was often agreed to and paid for without question. If you believed this lot, a Peugeot needs a new ECU for about half of the faults that ever occur during its life, when it runs out of fuel, or when the battery goes flat, and a snapped alternator mount on a car the same day it comes out of their workshops after a service is a coincidence, and they aren't obliged to contribute to the cost of the complete new short engine required to fix it. Utter crooks! Those of us who ran the cars who had some mechanical knowledge would play the dumb / uncaring company car driver, and would struggle not to laugh when the diagnostics and rectification processes were explained to us. We even had a database at work of them for a while.
Always found the local Ford dealer very honest when taking the Focus there, but then only once did it need anything other than standard servicing. Fault was diagnosed correctly, and fixed first time in any case. My only barney was over a lost locking wheelnut key which they basically accused me of lying over. They sorted it in the end, but I had to really argue my point and escalate it two levels. Whatever happened to the customer always being right, especially as I had put 90,000 miles worth of servicing business their way in the past 2 and a half years (we had a free choice of which dealer to use).
On the whole, I've only ever had bad experiences with just one dealer (Peugeot) and then, had it been my car and my money, I wouldn't have accepted half the carp they fed me, or paid half the bills. Renault dealer is excellent, Ford were too apart from one incident.
Cheers
DP
--
04 Grand Scenic 1.9 dCi Dynamique
00 Mondeo 1.8TD LX
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