I expect Cheddar will be along soon to offer some balance to this post. I owned one of these from new and had 80k on the clock when I sold it. Whilst under warranty, they are excellent cars. I loved everything about this car. I only had a camshaft sensor issue within warranty. Out of warranty, you need deep pockets and, in my experience, have to advise that they do not make sensible purchases from then on. I spent £2k on mine in the last 6 months and took the decision to cut my losses. Fuel injectors and blown turbo. I would advise either getting back into warranty, or buying a petrol equivalent. The dip in economy is more than offset by the costly garage bills.
Splodgeface
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Also, how many other engines have warranted a second volume of correspondence on HJ's site?!
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hiya thanks for your reply, just out of interest, as its seems the diesel pump may not be at fault at all ,could it be the injectors that were fitted? as it went wrong not long after we had them done? also would the injectors be guaranteed for a set time? thanks again
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I'd advise looking on the ford mondeo owner's website www.fordmondeo.org. They have an excellent forum with loads of answers to issues to do with this engine. If you search there, or even post, you should get a helpful response.
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It seems that problems with these engines are tricky to diagnose and therefore an uninitiated indy may throw four new injectors at the problem when a (good) dealer or specialist may simply recalibrate.
Who diagnosed the problem? It seems as though you have some come back on them, afterall you have paid them to fix the car and they have not.
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To put some perspective on this as splodgeface suggests, these engines are very numerous and cover well above avergae mileages, furthermore those with issues gravitate to a site such as this highlighted by the fact that if you Google "TDCI problems", Vol 1 of this thread is at the top of the list, therefore a significant proportion of all those who have TDCi problems and search the net for info will appear here.
In contrast if you Google "TDi problems" you get stealthtdi.com, if you Google "vtec problems" you get hondaacura.net, if you Google "D4D problems" you get toyotaownersclub.com.
I.e: this thread - Vol 1 is THE resource on the net for TDCi issues.
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Still tip of the iceberg perhaps as many don`t bother with the internet and as its largely a company car in its first years, will likely not care about searching (and posting) for solutions and just use the replacement car provided. Accordingly, statistics on failure could be far more extensive than web forums suggest.
Regards
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I.e: this thread - Vol 1 is THE resource on the net for TDCi issues.
Rather overstated, I think, Cheddar.
The relevant section on the fordmondeo.org site has 663 threads and 6168 postings all specifically about the TDCi engine. If you want to talk about non-engine related issues, there are thousands of other postings on the same forum. Admittedly, there is less 'class' in some of the banter that goes on there, but it clearly has more depth and breadth in terms of issues than you could ever expect here. Additionally, most of the people who gravitate towards that site actually own a Mondeo, so there are far less unhelpful comments from the anti-Ford brigade.
HJ's site is a marvellous institution and a brilliant resource for car owners. However, there is no way it can compete with specialist websites on specific detail. It does provide a really useful all-round resource for discussion about cars in general and, if you like, acts as a 'portal' for people asking questions about some of the 'trickier diagnoses' that you talk about.
I am not anti-Ford, I've owned a MkIII for several years - and I still do. I'm not anti-TDCi: I've owned one of them for several years too. I just have to question the practicality of the car beyond its warranty. Hence, I've reluctantly had to join the petrol-heads...
Splodgeface
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>> I.e: this thread - Vol 1 is THE resource on the net for TDCi issues. Rather overstated I think Cheddar.
Spoldgeface you have missed my point.
The fact is that if Mr non car enthusiast Mondeo owner has a problem and Googles "TDCi problems" he arrives here and not the Mondeo OC or whatever hence the fairiy regular apperance of new members signing up to ask questions about their TDCi.
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Think about it this way guys.
You have two engine designers. One is designing a 2 litre petrol unit, the other a 2 litre CRD.
The petrol designer has to include a fuel system runnng at about 45psi max. The CRD engine designer has to design a fuel system running at 24000+psi, and with about 30% more electronic complexity than the petrol engine. The accountants allow him an extra £100 to do this - oh, and he's also got to supply a turbo and a dual mass flywheel..... Which engine do you think will end up being the most reliable?
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But he would get more than £100 to play with...
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>>The accountants allow him an extra £100to do this - oh and he's also got to supply a turbo and a dual mass flywheel..... Which engine do you think will end up being the most reliable?
>>
Think about it, double the petrol's torque, comparable power, only 60% of the petrol's fuel consumption all for anly £100 more per power unit, that is 0.1p per mile over 100 miles.
Therefore there is only one of two answers to that:
1/ The CR man has a darn sight more than £100 per unit to play with or .......
2/ ......... he has done a darn good job.
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The public knowledge of these wide spread reported issues has now grown to the point that may people are 'wise' to used examples of these cars. I would suggest that in another few years depreciation could be much higher than expected on these vehicles due to the current expensive "hassle".
I can not see many punters queuing up to buy high mileage examples of these cars apart from maybe Cheddars example which seems to have turned out to be a superbly engineered, reliable and cost effective jewel in the crown and a miracle of economical and rewarding motoring.
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The public knowledge of these wide spread reported issues has now grown to the point that may people are 'wise' to used examples of these cars.
I'm not sure that reporting of these issues is particularly wide-spread. Those who frequent these sorts of sites will read about issues, but others not. It will be interesting to see how many people are driving around in 10 year old CR diesels in the early part of the next decade. I'd venture to suggest far fewer than currently drive old (non-CR) diesels.
Also, it is not necessarily true to say that these engines are less reliable than their petrol equivalents, but it is certainly true to say that your average repair bill, when they do throw up a problem, has a much higher probability of being a four figure one.
Lastly, and to be fair to TDCi's, I'm including any common rail type diesel in this.
Splodgeface
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I can see where you're coming from, Cheddar. I suppose it depends on how owners go about researching their problems. It is interesting that the mondeo owners club seems quite difficult to 'google' (if there should be such a verb), but it is still far more active in terms of people posting issues than this site. Makes me wonder how they find it. It is a good site, though, for the lady who posted a few days back on this site.
Splodgeface
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" It will be interesting to see how many people are driving around in 10 year old CR diesels in the early part of the next decade. I'd venture to suggest far fewer than currently drive old (non-CR) diesels."
Try to find a 7-10 year old Xantia HDI with under 100k miles.. Not many around. Some CR engines survive very well.
Just because Ford had quality problems for the first 3 years of manufacture and their dealers have no clues does not mean all CR diesels are carp. Far from it...Anyone want a D4D Yaris with 150k miles? I've seen two ... and both sounded very well and fit for another 100k ..
madf
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hi again, i hope i havent stirred anything up here by posting for help.... i have posted on the ford website also to ask for help but as we found there was nothing more we can do hubby took the car to a local ford garage for examination... the result? seems like the ford garage that fitted our injectors had cross threaded one injector and not wired another up correctly which is what i am told started the trouble with our car. they cannot access our car until the injectors are sorted.
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>>The public knowledge of these wide spread reported issues has now grown to the point that may people are 'wise' to used examples of these cars. I would suggest that in another few years depreciation could be much higher than expected on these vehicles due to the current expensive "hassle". >>
The fact is the vast majority are problem free and it is generally only those with problems that gravitate to a site like this. It may be that a cost of repair message (Aprilia's point) has started to seep through as it did when ABS became common place and the press speculated about ABS pump failure writing off otherwise servicable cars. However as of today a TDCi is worth a lot more, a TDCi 130 can go for as much as £2k more than a 1.8 petrol it seems.
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>>Just because Ford had quality problems for the first 3 years of manufacture and their dealers have no clues >>
I dont believe that is true, the problems are a small minority, and as for the dealers, I had run Vauxhalls for a few years and my experience with Ford dealers is a vast improvement over the three Vauxhall dealers I dealt with.
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According to one recent mag. article each larger ford dealership is supposed to have one supertech who has undergone more training than others and has access to Fords internal technical network. Certainly at my local Ford dealership one of the mechanics seems to know what he is talking about. They also mentioned about some guy from Headoffice who comes round to inspect the repair work they are doing.
Whether all this amounts to improvements in Customer service remains to be seen...but it sounds like they are trying to improve matters. One thing is for sure, there are many ford dealers out there, so if everyone migrates to the good ones, the bad ones will either have to improve or shut down. Re Vauxhall - my colleague with comp. car found them useless and Ford "just about adequate".
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One problem is that staff turnover in the motor trade is huge. I remember reading in one of my trade mags that the average dealer turns over 100% of staff every three years. A really good mechanic I know, one of the best in the area, has worked at four different dealerships in the last three years. Dealerships are very wary of giving too much training as it tends to result in the techs getting poached. At some dealerships hardly any of the techs will be 'factory trained'. A system of 'golden handcuff's would probably work, but most dealership management is too short sighted to try it.
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And, in the mean time, we all suffer! These posts offer some fascinating insight! Thanks.
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well we have had another update! ford managed to correct the injectors, which is great but we are now being told that the glow plugs are stuck in the head? he is trying to release them and if they shatter in the head we will have a mahoosive bill! one which hubby isnt too keen on, so if this happens we are cutting our losses and selling it on ebay for parts.
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>>the glow plugs are stuck in the head
How have the glow plugs been tested?
If they are drawing enough current, they are working fine, and then there's no reason why they can't just remain stuck there for a while. e.g. perhaps long enough for the stricken vehicle to find itself in the care of new owners.
Number_Cruncher
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welll hmmmmm... lol im a bird remember! the car is still not running right, we have now ruled out injectors, diesel pump and air compression? seems it may be the glow plugs. i haven't asked any more as to whats going on as my hubby isn't too pleased and i daren't ask.
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Glow plugs shouldn't affect the engine once its running.
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i think it starts up then it seems to lose power and die, not good in a taxi! but they said they are checking every avenue that could be faulty. £800 spent on it in 1 week aint good .
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Doesnt sound like glowplugs.
If you took it in and asked them to fix it you shouldnt have to pay anything until they have, and even then if they have changed an expensive part(s) that subsequently proves to be a red herring then you should not have to pay for it, though then garage then has the option of refiiting the old one(s).
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>>im a bird remember!
Sorry!, I don't go along with this!
and being a bird means what? That you are somehow incapable? chromosonally pre-programmed never to understand cars?
Why not get hold og the Haynes manual for your car and read it? The fact that you are asking sensible and intelligent questions on here makes it plain that the ideas are not beyond you.
IMO, there's no reason why there should be a difference between men and women when it comes to fault finding and doing the technical (i.e., intellectual) work on cars. Admittedly, I have seen an otherwise brilliant young woman mechanic leave the job because she struggled with the physical aspects of the work, and couldn't work fast enough to make any bonus - a real shame.
As others have said, failed glow plugs would make your car very difficult to start. Perhaps your garage is a little out of its depth?
Number_Cruncher
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thanks for your replies and you number cruncher! i am kind of interested in mechanics ,like to know things and i ask loads of questions! which seems to irritate some male mechanics when i hint i know a little! i wanted to get as much info as i can to help hubby in getting his car on the road as its getting a bit of a pain in the behind now! we are waiting for more news on the glow plugs, hopefully tomorrow and see where it goes from here, we have been given the impression that having the head looked at and sorted (if the glow plugs doesn't come out as planned) will cost a fortune
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>>which seems to irritate some male mechanics when i hint i know a little!
Excellent! As sport, I sometimes pretend to know nowt, and listen to the BS they try to feed me!
Yes, if the garage try to remove the glow-plugs and they snap off, you are in for a serious big bill. Typically the cylinder head needs to come off and the snapped remnants of glow plugs machined out. If the glow plugs are really working, they're best left well alone!
Please double check with the garage that they have done some testing and are absolutely sure that the glow plugs have failed and must be changed. If the diagnosis hasn't been done, then the garage is risking quite a lot of your money on a hunch!
Good luck!
Number_Cruncher
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If the garage can't show me the hot and cold resistance of each plug then the garage would be risking its own money on this.
If I pay and expert to do a job I expect it to be done in an efficient and logical manner. If they accidentally break something whilst they are doing it, particularly if that something could have been tested in situ rather than taking things apart then I certainly wouldn't be paying the bill.
--
I read often, only post occasionally
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Glow plugs only come into play prior to starting - once it fires up they are not really doing anything. Its not like a model plane engine where the glow plug is needed to ignite the mixture on each stroke.
If the engine starts OK then I would say glow plugs are OK - especially at this time of year when they are not doing much anyway on a CR Diesel. I think garage is whistling up a hollow tree on that one.
Incidentally, stuck glowplugs are a bugbear on many late model Diesels. I had a nerve-wracking run in with a stuck plug on a Merc. There is now a tool available which literally shakes the plug loose (breaks the bond between plug and head with vibration). See if the garage can borrow one to do the job. Snapped plug means head off, £700+ job.....
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>>stuck glowplugs are a bugbear on many late model Diesels
And one or two not so late model ones too!
When I had to take the head off my 1995 E300D, I took the opportunity to change the glowplugs, knowing that if they snapped, then I was ready with the head already off to have the machining done. Being a 24 valve indirect injection, the glow plugs are very long and thin, and hence quite vulnerable to snapping upon removal. 4 out of 6 came out without any trouble at all, once they had been slackened, they were only finger tight to withdraw. 2 fought all the way out and even at the end of the thread, they wouldn't turn or move easily. Over 2 or 3 nights, with WD-40 seeping down the threads, they eventually were released. The difference which caused the problem was that the sealing taper had not worked properly, and the void between the shank of the glow-plug and the bore of the head had become filled with carbon.
The Beru website is extremely helpful - as well as the installation torque, they also list the maximum torque that is safe to apply to the glow plugs. So, you can set your torque wrench and attempt to undo the glow plugs in comparitive safety.
Number_Cruncher
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An interesting point you make, NC, concerning the taper on glowplugs. I see a fair few of these and hold Beru plugs in high regard - I have yet to see a Beru plug with a poorly machined body.
There are two parts to a taper seal. I wonder if our Stuttgart friends machined the cylinder head properly? I have seen several components from MB of a quality which would not please me, the worst being a PAS pump with a (melted) integral reservoir.
Perhaps when you have run this engine for another 10k miles or so, you could let us know if the plugs in the same locations are stuck again.
659.
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asked hubby about glow plugs and he said they need to take these out to test the compression....(thats what they told him) im fearing the worst now!)
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659,
Yes, I put a set of Beru plugs back in - they were reasonably priced from Euro Car Parts. As I was concerned about the taper seal, I made sure that they were all cleaned out well before re-assembly. But, I didn't make any checks about the geometry of the taper deep in the recess of the cylinder head.
I'm not sure if part of the problem is that people don't put them in tight enough. Once people know that a particular engine has a reputation for glow-plugs being snapped, perhaps they they try to compensate. Without enough pre-load on the taper seal, I can imagine leakage being more likely.
spanky,
The garage are doing something reasonable - although there's a better way to do it. In this position, I would ask for the comressions to be checked by measuring the current drawn from the battery as the engine is being cranked over. You may need to find another garage to do this test if your garage doesn't have the equipment.
Number_Cruncher
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just had a phone call they got the glow plugs out ok. they will continue with the testing on monday! things are looking hopeful!
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NC, remember engineers blue? I used to work for a UK company which made glowplugs (although this was not my area of direct expertise) and the taper question often came up when sealing issues arose.
We had a machined, hardened and polished glowplug body which would be fitted to a cylinder head with blue on the taper. It was sometimes quite revealing to see what the contact area was like. You could probably do this with a new plug of reputable manufacture (eg. Beru) to assess the seat machining accuracy. I remember that the PSA engines were always by far the best in this respect.
My own recommendation which is not entirely consistent with that of all glowplug makers is to fit a new plug with the taper clean and dry, and use copper loaded anti-seize grease in moderation on the thread only. Torque to the minimum value given. Doing this, I've never encountered a stuck plug - and I've had some long stayers as I always test them in situ.
659.
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well we are all done and hubby's pocket is another £564 lighter. turned out the original injector was faulty(and it was the one that that took out as they had replaced all 4 when they should of done 3!)
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Why did you have to pay again when they had already replaced all four once? Also if it was injectors and not the pump that were faulty I would question as to whether you should have paid for a new pump.
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>>NC, remember engineers blue?
Vaguely!!
Why do glow plugs rely on an accurately machined taper for a seal? Why not a nice compliant copper washer, and relax the tolerances?
Spanky,
Glad to hear that your problem is sorted - thanks for coming back to tell us.
Number_Cruncher
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no worries just hope no-one has to go through what we had to!
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The taper fit to glowplugs is largely historical, although a copper washer will only work in a diesel engine if it has a largish sealing area and is peripherally constrained - as in a nozzle seal. If a glowplug were to be detailed like a spark plug, compression leakage past the thread would blow the washer out sideways. The glowplug has the seal first, then the thread which is a much better detail.
There is also no requirement for a glowplug to be in intimate thermal contact with the head (unlike a spark plug); in fact the more thermally isolated the plug is, the faster it will heat.
659.
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hi! im very sorry but i'm back again! we only got got car back thursday ,and last night the warning light came on and the turbo cut out................ AGAIN! can anyone on here tell me where i can find the build code that corresponds to the bulletin that was posted on here? then at least i can throw something at the garage when it goes in? i had asked for them to check oasis which he said he had and no recalls had come up for our car(he also showed me the paper) but from what i can make out it might not come up? any helped appreciated.....
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Time to cut your losses and get a 2l petrol Mondy- superb. None of this rubbish. you have spent my year's petrol bill on repairs so far!.
so much for diesel economics.
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Is it just cars which have these problems. My lad drives Texaco tankers on nights. They run 24X7 and have moonship miles on them. He tells me that he has never had an engine falter or break down.
I know they only rev to about 1800 but are these common rail with all the MAF, crankshaft sensors and all other gubbins on them.
Why do HGVs have such reliability compared to cars. Is it quality of components or design.
wemyss
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Its down to the garage, you have paid, they need to fix it. Also as I said before why did you have to pay again when they had already replaced all four injectors once? Also if it was injectors and not the pump that were faulty I would question the dealer as to whether you should have a refund for the pump.
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I'm not aware of any HGV applications for Delphi fuel systems.
659.
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I'm not aware of any HGV applications for Delphi fuel systems.
There are plenty of TDCi Transits doing 100k + miles a year.
659, I really think your ongoing downer on Delphi is unjustified.
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The Transit is not, by any remote stretch of the imagination an HGV.
I'm sorry if my observations regarding Delphi cause displeasure. I used to work for one of the UK fuel injection equipment companies which eventually became Delphi and saw some of the designs which are now in production at the development stage. I wish you continued luck with your Ford Mondeo.
659.
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The Transit is not by any remote stretch of the imagination an HGV.
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I didnt say it was an HGV however it is a commercial vehical that does well above average mileages with often unsympathic drivers and has a good relaibility rating so is a good advert for both generic CR and Delphi.
I'm sorry if my observations regarding Delphi cause displeasure>>
Apology accepted, though it is not a matter of displeasure, rather a matter of encouraging a balanced view.
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Have the garage checked the fuel for metal contamination? This would confirm a fault with the pump. There is a given procedure on Ford TIS for doing this.
They say the computer said the pump was faulty - what exactly was the fault code? If it was low fuel pressure, did they consider replacing the fuel rail pressure sensor and performing the wiring mod given in the TSB for this problem?
Have they replaced the Cam sensor? This can be a tricky one to diagnose but is probably the most frequent cause of random cut outs on TDCi's and costs about £25 to replace. Personally I'd suggest getting it replaced first before anything more expensive because it's so relatively cheap compared to the rest of the parts, yet fundamental to the whole injection system. It wouldn't be the first time a pump and injectors have been changed to no avail, only to find the problem is the very simple cam sensor!
Have the garage considered driving it round with WDS collecting live data from the ECU? This would allow the technican to see exactly which values are out of tolerance and causing limp home mode to be activated.
My advice to anyone having unresolved issues with a modern diesel would be to take it to the local approved service agent for the brand of injection system fitted to the car, eg Delphi for the Mondeo. They are working with these systems all day every day and know what to look for.
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