I think road-tests in magazines are all fine except you need a long test drive yourself (at least 48 hours) to decide if you like a car. I can sit in a car and find I do not like it quickly but finding out the niggly things you do not like takes longer. Apparently the pedals in the new C-class are offset - very poor design in 2007 and it still has a foot operated parking brake on the manual!
I do think the new Mondeo is very good (not driven it yet) but if you're after a premium badge then you've made up your mind before sitting in it and driving it. The previous E-Class Merc was poorly built and unreliable but people still bought what was perceived to be a quality car. The E-Class before that was prone to rust wasn't it? And some of the Bangle'ised BMWs sold because of the badge - we have to admit they were not the best looking cars.
Because of the size comparison of a 5-series vs. new Mondeo saloon.... looking at the Mondeo and adding nearly all options to a Titanium X 2.5 turbo it is still cheaper than the cheapest 5-series (523SE) without any options. The Mondeo I spec'd up had 18" wheels, adaptive suspension, active bi-xenon lights, DVD navigation, heated seats front and back etc. To make the BMW attractive for resale you'd need leather, sat nav, etc. which are very costly.
But after you drive them off the forecourt the Ford has just lost a huge amount and the BMW has just lost a lot... and that is why people buy BMWs, Mercedes Benz, Audi etc. although...
.... going on list price a 523SE costs £28,625 (insurance group 17) and retains 45% after 3 years, thus losing £15,700. The Mondeo 2.5T Titanium X (without options so closer to the BMW spec and only insurance group 14) costs £22960 and retains say 37% thus losing £14,465. Retention values from AutoExpress not me. Question is which depreciated more in real terms? I'd say the BMW as you've lost an additional £1,235 and insurance will have been more. I have ignored repairs, cost of run-flats on BMW being more costly, servicing, etc. The Mondeo is even the quicker car. And spec the BMW to match the Mondeo and the difference will be bigger.
People will still buy the BMW because of what others think though.
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I accept what you say; but I would still buy a new Avantgarde C Class. They have spent an absolute fortune and gone to endless trouble fixing the famous quality issues. They say there has never been a more tested Mercedes than the new C class. I actually found the driving position very comfortable when I went for a test drive the other day.
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"I accept what you say; but I would still buy a new Avantgarde C Class"
That's part of my point. You have decided you want a marque like Mercedes. Even if the Ford had every option available as standard, did twice the mpg, emitted less, etc. etc. you probably would still make the same choice. And it is our choice what we choose to drive at the end of the day.
If you saw how many neighbours are having the loft or cellar converted (big Edwardian houses to start with) or the garden landscaped you'd realise it is all in image. One immediate neighbour got a low spec C-Class last time round (now on an E-Class) and winged about lack of space. Could have got an alternative with space but "needed" the badge because of what clients would think. Everytime I looked at the previos silver C-Class with black plastic door handles it told me they wanted a Merc but could not afford a proper one ;-)
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You don't have my point. I don't want Mercedes for image, after all I am delighted driving my incredibly reliable god looking Seat Toledo since the end of 1999. If you actually knew me or any of my friends you would know I never care a dam about keeping up with the neighbour and swank etc.
All my life Mercedes have interested me ever since I took a ride in a 180 D in the fifties. Certain Mercedes I really like.
{SNIP! Unnecessary quoting removed ONCE MORE! Please either summarise the quoting of who you're replying to, or use "in reply to xxx" (and preferably before you start typing, not afterwards - DD}
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Should I get a 155bhp Mondeo estate when the current Astra expires, then?
I don´t think our annual mileage warrants a diesel, but I do like the driving characteristics and the fuel economy. And we´ll be in the market for a big, fast estate by then. Any thoughts?
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we´ll be in the market for a big fast estate by then. Any thoughts?
The Mondeo isn't fast. It's adequate at best. If you want fast then an Audi RS6 might be more up your street.
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....an Audi RS6 might be more up your street.....
Running costs might be a wee bit steep though.
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"All my life Mercedes have interested me ever since I took a ride in a 180 D in the fifties"
Have you not contradicted yourself here ;-)
You seem to want a Merc because of an exerience of a 180D in the fifties (W120?), i.e. wanting a Merc because it is a Merc. You might not care what other people think and I contgratulate that. But you want one because you want one and nothing wrong it that :-)
Not sure one of these would convince me apart from it being MB :-)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_W120
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I have read with interest all of the above so here is my tuppence.
It is not just the premium marks that Ford is going to lose out to. I for one would place most Ford and Vauxhall products below Peugeot, VW Group and Honda offerings due to the looks, slightly detached advertising (Champions League etc) and the sheer numbers on the road.
We can all choose our cars at work and we have around 3 or 4 Fords out of 100 odd cars.
The new Mondeo looks mundane next to 407 (my opinion) and the silver finish on the dash looks cheap and nasty (my opinion again).
The slight difference in handling over a say a 407 will not be noticed 9 times out of 10.
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In brand credibility terms Ford are way above Peugeot and the 407 looks just awful, the rear of the saloon is not too bad though the wagon and the frontal styling in general is just laughable compared to the cohesion in many modern cars, even the Bangle beemers.
In styling terms Peugeot have lost there way in recent years a view reinforced by the recent horendous faceflift to the rather bland though good looking 307 (CC excepted, that was always awful to look at).
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In brand credibility terms Ford are way above Peugeot
Credibility perhaps, but image no, at least not on the Mondeo. The Ford Mondeo has a dreadful image as the sort of car driven by failing salesmen from Essex.
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Think I am with cheddar on the design front. Ford in my opinion way ahead of Peugeot at the moment. and the Bangle BMWs apart from the 6 and Z4.
My next car has to be right but will also be chosen on CO2, list price, MPG and company lease price per month. Just like the current Mondeo. I did a spreadsheet to compare cost per year to compare the shortlist. The EuroIV diesel Mondeo was just ahead of the Euro III diesel Mondeo :-) And I don't really like Fords. But the dealer (less than half a mile away) has been surprisingly good. Much better than the local VW dealer.
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rtj70 We really have argued rather a lot over this. The " Honest john " writeups one of the best. I have true respect .
As regards to Ford mondeo, of course I think it is a jolly good car. I have done my homework.
I am in no way affected by badges. My present Seat Toledo TDiSE I have had since the end of 1999. It is an incredibly relable and good looking car.
With genuine due respect to you and everyone else, I want to either buy a new C Class Avantgarde or the lovely Lexus IS.
My very good friend I mentioned earlier will always like Fords.
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I await the company list (probably a month from now) for new cars. I have had enough problems to not want to own more cars in the household - wife, stepson, and maybe soon other stepson. So company car again for a little less hastle.
I actually really like the Lexus IS... might me outside my budget though. Could afford it but like holidays as well. Before the Mondeo I really liked VAG (like you have now) and had a Golf GTI 1.8T (stolen) and then an unreliable Passat 1.8T Sport. But last time round (Oct 2003) no VWs on the scheme - only Ford and GM group cars. Now also Toyota and therefore Lexus. Ironically Leaseplan who provide vehicles is now owned by VW... but to VAG cars :-(
But I was surprised how good the current Mondeo is. I wanted to dislike it when I test drove at first a Zetec S on 18" wheels. It rode better than the Passat Sport. The designer was ex-VW of course :-) I didn't want a Vectra (to small in the back) so it was Mondeo or Jag X-Type basically.
The latest Mondeo (without the Ghia wood trim) is looking like a rather good car but a bit too big to be honest. Maybe with the new Avensis imminent a 180PS diesel version of the current one might be cheaper. Who knows :-)
List to test currently includes (including those for fun only):
- New Mondeo models (various engines, trim)
- Ford Focus CC
- Ford Focus ST3
- Lexus IS 220d
- Vectra VXR
- Astra Coupe Convertible
- Avensis (various)
And I've not been arguing honest :-)
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rtj70. If they put an automatic gearbox into the Lexus IS 220d, they will have an excellent car. Apparently Lexus found it hard getting the gear ratios right in the manual. When I sat in the driver's seat of the Lexus in a dealership, I was amazed at the comfort and the general build quality. Unfortunately it's carrying capacity in the rear is not great. The new Ford Mondeo is amazingly big if it is longer than the BMW 5 series.I know one very long car is an Audi A6. One motoring writer once wrote that it was nice, but if you can find a parking space. I see them sticking out of the parking spaces at the local airport.
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cattleman6
The biggest concern about the new Mondeo is it's size. There is a chance they will be quite reasonable in monthly on the company scheme but I might be wrong. Don't want a Saab 9-3/Vectra for sure. Anything auto = might CO2 = high cost as company car.
Worst case scenario... I take the money and opt out. Then petrol vs. diesel not so important an argument :-) But I'd rather not have the hastle. I bet the accident in the hire car in Italy last year, still being investigated, where I was rear ended by an HGV will influence insurance for one.
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Thanks rtj70, I really liked the old picture and the website you showed. The 180 D was an old " Blue Cab" Dublin Taxi in the fifties. It was a blue colour. I know they were underpowered old " tanks"; but in their day they were probably quite fashionable.Around that time I was given a lift in an old Ford Prefect. They made a fizzy sound as well as the usual engine sound when cold.
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I accept what you say; but I would still buy a new Avantgarde C Class.
Err.. I presume that you will have to spend a few million, since this would have to be a bespoke commission by Mercedes on your behalf. There si not such spec called 'Avantgarde'
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Err.. I presume that you will have to spend a few million since this would have to be a bespoke commission by Mercedes on your behalf. There si not such spec called 'Avantgarde'
Oh good grief, has the backroom really become this tired and picky?? Lighten up people!!!
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>> 'Avantgarde' Oh good grief has the backroom really become this tired and picky?? Lighten up people!!!
I find Cattleman6's posts somewhat bizzare, but I believe he is based in Southern Ireland, where there is indeed an Avantgarde (rather than Sport) version of the new C Class.
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.... going on list price a 523SE costs £28 625 (insurance group 17) and retains 45% after 3 years thus losing £15 700. The Mondeo 2.5T Titanium X (without options so closer to the BMW spec and only insurance group 14) costs £22960 and retains say 37% thus losing £14 465.
think the Mondeo would do somehwat better than 37% as residuals on old ones will be hit by release of new model.
you'd also get a better discount on a Mondeo.
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Well the mondeo may be the best car since sliced bread, but it has one serious fundamental flaw.
I saw one this week, and in the flesh, its HIDEOUSLY UGLY
From the rear, and rear 3/4 it is foul.
I have also seen, in the flesh ( - cant tell you how or why, but you may have noticed I have been away) the new laguna. It makes the Mondeo look like old mother rileys boot.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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I have also seen in the flesh ( - cant tell you how or why but you may have noticed I have been away) the new laguna. It makes the Mondeo look like old mother rileys boot.
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Disagree TVM but then you like the 407 which says it all!
www.specsavers.co.uk
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Specsavers.
Rose tinted ones for you cheddar where the blue ovals concerned.
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snipquote PU
Not at all, I also like the new Laguna from the pics i have seen though TVM's comments "HIDEOUSLY UGLY" etc are rather OTT.
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I have to agree with you TVM. I had the misfortune of seeing a 4-door saloon on the road yesterday, and from the rear it really is a bit of a mess. The front's not too bad, but it looks like they gave the back end design to the work experience lad.
I couldn't find a single rear-on picture of the 4-door anywhere on the Ford UK website - I wonder why?........
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"People will still buy the BMW because of what others think though"
And quite a few who don't buy them for the same reason.. :-)
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I always had Fords when I was younger (I worked for Ford) then as company cars I drove Cavaliers, Sierras, Mondeo, 405, 406. ? all your typical reps cars, although I generally got top spec versions. The RWD Sierra 2.0 GLX and Mondeo 2.0 Ghia were very good cars. The 406 Exec?s (esp with the 2L petrol turbo engine) were lovely motorway cruisers.
I opted out of company car scheme a couple of years and had 3 day trials of Honda Accord CDTi, Mondeo TDCi and Mercedes C200Cdi Estate.
There?s no doubt in my mind (and that?s what matters, because it?s my money) that, in everyday use, the Merc is just in a different league, in terms of fit, finish and overall quality ?feel?. Its fundamental design seems so much more complete than any of the others. You just don?t get the B pillar wind noise that seems to affect all Mondeos at 45+, or the side windows getting filthy in wet weather that made 406 Estates dangerous to drive.
I think it?s entirely feasible that a Mondeo would out-handle C Class (my Mondeo?s body control was awesome) but the only people who drive within a million miles of the handling limits of a modern car are magazine road testers.
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the only people who drive within a million miles of thehandling limits of a modern car are magazine road testers.
I really take exception to comments like this, it's slack thinking and short sighted.
Here's a scenario for you- accident on the motorway up ahead, despite your good observance at the last moment a panic stricken driver swerves into your path. As your car has excellent handling capabilities you are able to steer your way round the problem onto the hard shoulder and into safety.
Here's another one-accident on the motorway up ahead, despite your good observance at the last moment a panic stricken driver swerves into your path. As your car has mediocre handling capabilities you are unable to steer your way round the problem and t-bone the other car at 20mph.
The first is active' safety rather than the second relying on'passive' safety measures such as air bags, side impact bars and crumple zones.
I know which scenario I prefer
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with a car that handles really well at the limit, the more chance you have of keeping it upright if you do accidently find yourself at the limit.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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mediocre handling capabilities
That's the point though, isn't it - modern cars don't have "mediocre" handling - they're all pretty good, with the differences being marginal.
What it much more likely to help you avoid an accident are things like electronic stability control - which all MB's have all been fitted with as standard for years. It's reckoned hundreds of lives a year would be saved in the UK if all cars had it.
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modern cars don't have "mediocre" handling - they're all pretty good with the differences being marginal.............avoid an accident are things like >>electronic stability control - which all MB's have all been fitted with as standard for years.
I find it rather tragic that people think like that- there are plenty of modern cars that have poor handling. Maybe not dangerous but in a life or death situation certainly very compromised.
Furthermore in some circumstances ESP is actually counterproductive.
The better a car handles then the more chance a driver has of avoiding an accident IMO.
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I find it rather tragic that people think like that- there are plenty of modern cars that have poor handling. Maybe not dangerous but in a life or death situation certainly very compromised.
Cough Astra cough
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there are plenty of modern cars that have poor handling.
>>
Presumeably then, in the interests of safety, you drive what is - in your opinion - the best handling car available?Furthermore in some circumstances ESP is actually counterproductive.
You're probably one of those people who are terrified of speed limiters as you must retain the ability accelerate out of "danger".
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Presumeably then in the interests of safety you drive what is - in your opinion - the best handling car available? You're probably one of those people who are terrified of speed limiters as you must retain the ability accelerate out of "danger".
Sometimes when I read comments posted by otherson this website I wonder if those that post them are actually have any interest in cars.
Anyway, yes the cars I own are picked because I feel they are some of the best handling in their class/era ie Audi RS4 with it's quattro drivetrain, Golf GTi V with a forgiving FWD chassis and a 6 series BMW which is fantastically adjustable/predictable.
Speed limiters I don't feel are a good idea for various reasons, the ability to accelerate beyond some arbitrary limit being one of them.
Do you actually have any idea why ESP can be counter productive in some situations?
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Do you actually have any idea why ESP can be counter productive in some situations?
Power sliding around bends?
Many of these driver aids could be considered to be a bad thing as they take away the need for people to be able to drive capably, however the fact is that few people can.
You may be able to think of situations where an ESP system would be counter productive for you, but for the vast majority of people in the vast majority of emergency situations, it would be a good thing.
In fact the example you used (swerving to avoid another vehicle on a motorway) is a perfect example of where ESP would work well for most people if its intervention was needed.
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I have a sneaking suspicion that OldHand is, in fact, Nigel Mansell. Go on, deny it ;-)
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I've only ever had one situation where I was pleased not to have traction or ESP, the vast majority of times it is a major driving aid and would overall be a positive step for the majority of drivers.
Blue
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I didn't suggest it wasn't a 'positive step' merely that it isn't the panacea for a poor chassis that some people seemed to say it was.............
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Had a look at two Mondeos at the dealer today, a Zetec estate and a Titanium X hatch, the latter was great spec with the 2.5T engine, both however have extensive areas of brushed aluminium on the dash, lokks superbly put together though would take getting used to. I understand the Ghia / X has a rich wood effect so not exactly subtle, why not ebony like my current Mondeo Ghia X I wonder, tastful and more subtle.
They are good looking cars though both the front and rear lenses are a bit OTT, chrome etc, moving on from the trend started by Lexus and taken on by most 17 to 20 year old Saxo and Corsa owners.
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I saw my first one on the road yesterday. It was in a traffic queue and I was just behind it in the adjacent lane. In front of it was a new Passat and behind a Laguna, so useful for size comparison. The Mondeo appeared much bigger, especially the distance between the rear door and the end of the car - the boot must be huge.
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It is - on the estate I looked at, certainly. It's not just the length - it has a low floor and small side windows, so the shape is excellent and you can stack a lot in while still being able to close the load cover. If it'll take three boosters across the back seat - or two boosters and an adult, which we often want to do - it might change my mind about whether we really need the bulk of an S-Max. (Not that the Mondeo is exactly petite, of course.)
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I am not "terrified of speed limiters" I am terrified, per se, of creeping Big Brother legislation in general.....
How long before we are speed-limited, alcohol-limited, everything-limited?
Let's stand up for freedom while we can eh?
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