Here are some helpful clues to avoid buying a pup in the future (quotes from the original post):
"The sales man told me the car was from a friend of the bosses and he would sell it to his mother it was that good a car."
If that doesn't make you walk away, then this should have:
"The car sales man wrote down on the receipt 'no warranty implied or given, sold as seen & tested."
Oh, and if you have a friend who is a mechanic, then have him look over the care *before* you buy it, not after.
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Oh and if you have a friend who is a mechanic then have him look over the care *before* you buy it not after.
SNIP THE REST - please don't quote the whole message you're replying to, just summarise or add "in reply to xxx" - DD"
Next time I'll just stay away from independent traders altogether!
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Next time I'll just stay away from independent traders altogether!
No need to do that, but look for one who has been around for a good few years. The bad ones don't usually last long.
Unless a sale is genuinely a 'trade sale' (i.e. to another person who is engaged in buying/selling cars as a business and will not be the end user) then the sale is a 'retail sale' and anything written on the receipt is irrelevant and many actually count against the seller if there is a court case.
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Next time I'll just stay away from independent traders altogether!
whatever........
>>>>>>>> all the facilities are out there to make sure you buy a good car from hpi to dekra to bob down the street in his lockup,these people can all help sort wheat from chaff
>>>>>>>>
i once got a mouldy loaf from aq large supermarket but i still go back there
>>>>>>>>>
my personal opinion of your posts are that you are a troll just out to cause trouble
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'no warranty implied or given, sold as seen & tested. "
It's illegal to state this these days, as it affects your statutory rights. e.g.
www.norfolk.gov.uk/consumption/groups/public/docum...f
www.luton.gov.uk/internet/business/trading_standar...s
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How can I be out to cause trouble?? I was sold a car that has massive corrosion on the N/S and O/S brake pipes, the N/S and O/S front rear suspension arm brushes are worn to nothing - these to name but a few faults. Can you tell me how the hell you can check for these things? Being a woman who doesn't know much about cars I went to a large trader for that particular reason, so I wasn't ripped off. The car lot had over 70 cars there including two Bentleys - its not as though I went to the roughest looking car lot I could find and took any old sack of pink fluffy dice - {suggest you take a look at the BR policy on SWEARING DD}
I'm not out to cause trouble for anyone, but I refuse to be ripped off and screwed over on this. I was sold a car by a trader that has been deemed unfit and illegal to drive - so what I should just lump it and go back there and buy another one?
I posted on this forum for some help - not abuse
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I posted on this forum for some help - not abuse
Quite! Can we stop the flaming please - more so when it's a new BR member. DD.
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As a crude guide, better independents may offer longer warranties relative to the price of car and their rivals, included in price. OK Any of them can sell you a warranty for 6 months+, but I guess the warranty company will ditch the independent if they get an abnormal number of claims if the Independent is selling dubious stock...(assuming a well known national warranty company)
All my mates who had good cars from independents have either bought them from trusted mechanics who sell 2 or 3 cars outside their workshop or business's that have been around for decades and owned by same person.
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go get em sc@ff.
this sort of experience is why I prefer to buy from a dealer inspite of the higher price, and I hope that I haven't got a complete pup.
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Scoff speaking from a distance and with the benefit of hindsight I would have slightly perplexed by the combination of the salesman telling you he would sell it to his Mother (with whom I now think he must have a distant and unsatisfactoty relationship!) and selling it you As Seen, No Warranty etc!
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Thanks for your responses! I have spoke to trading standards who have basically said if vosa say the car is un-road worthy I can ask for a full refund. Vosa are coming on Wednesday to inspect the car at a third party garage.
I have learn't a few lessons from this and will never buy a car from a dealer without inspection for the AA etc first.
I will keep you posted with the outcome. Hope other people in the future will learn from this and not be conned by a trader buying a cheap car because it hasn't been valeted or serviced.
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Good luck sc@ff, it must be very distressing for you (Its for this reason I buy 'sheds' and even though I could afford a new car my current car I paid £285 for with 12 months MOT some tax and 4 brand new tyres) and will continue to do so.
From all the advice posted I'm sure you'll get your money back (please dont be put off by some of the replies and feel free to post with any motoring queries).
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Just to give you an update -
VOSA came down this morning to inspect the car and have issued us a Refusal of an MOT certificate. There were 5 reasons for refusal!!!
We made contact with the trader again and he is still refusing to give us a refund! I think he is under the impression that we are going to just forget about it and get the car fixed - he's in for a shock!
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Whilst it may be galling to continue to deal with this trader does he have anything else in his stock you could live with, even for a short time? (after an independant inspection of course!) Might be less heartache and you'd have a reasonable car to trade in elsewhere for something you did want?
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....having persuaded him to take back the dud I should have added.
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....having persuaded him to take back the dud I should have added.
Thats the thing! I'm strongly under the impression that this guy knew what he was doing when he sold us this car and we fell right for it - I don't think he would even let us trade the car in for anything else - plus I really don't want to ever to have to deal with this bloke again! He's admitted that he doesn't check his cars before he sells them!
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Thanks for the link tintin, I've had numerous conversations with Consumer Direct and have followed their advice to the letter. However the trader still refuses to believe that any of this is his problem. As far as he is concerned we bought the car with the description 'Trade Sale, Sold as Seen, No warranty etc etc' and he is not responsible for anything else.
He now has to put his response in writting to us for us to then take it further - another wait without no car. The thought of being without a car for the next 14 odd days is horrible! Its costing a fortune for me to get to work by taxi!
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Good luck, Sc@ff - give them hell; they quite clearly deserve it.
Bell boy - Customers are clearly a problem to you - you won't sell to someone who asks questions about things like CO2 outputs, as they haven't done their homework. You also accuse someone with a serious problem purchase of being a "troll". You will no doubt go from success to success in your trade and be a beacon to other would-be traders in motor vehicles.
V
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The "troll" comment did make me laugh!! Don't think I ever been called that before!
But I agree with everything you said Vin!!!
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Sc@ff
Don't muck about - send a letter by Special Delivery asking for money back in 7 days or you start Small Claims Court proceeding.
You can do the court stuff online and its cheap. Don't forget to claim for any costs associated with your claim.
I've no sympathy for PITA customers, but you sound to have a genuine case and the trader sounds like a rogue.
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Thanks Aprilia, I sent the letter off yesterday recorded delivery with a copy of the report from VOSA. So we are just waiting now for him to get back in touch in with us.
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I have bought Patricia Pearls book "Guide to Small Claims Procedure" from Amazon - we are about to sue a Leeds company who sold my 87 year old uncle an "adjustable bed" (a mattress) for £1600 claiming if he did not buy it he would end up in hospital again (he'd just come out). The salesman even filled out the cheque for him so he could sign it. The guy ticked a box saying the call was instigated by my uncle to make it look like the 7 day cooling off period wasn't applicable. We have tried to settle with them but they are stalling. Even if we don't get his money back I will be publicising the case as much as I can. According to Trading Standards this company is well-known to them and make a point of targeting the elderly charging large sums for basically a vibrating mattress pad. There are some really nasty people out there.
Anyway, the book is a bit heavy going but seems highly recommended and it has made me feel a bit more confident about the procedure. Worth a look if you get to the court stage.
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I did a Small Claims procedure some years ago using advice and a booklet from the Citizens Advice Bureau. Worked perfectly.
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Without wanting to inject a pessimistic note I was recently reading the number of people who win small claim court hearings but are unable to get their money back ( don't have the figures but a surprisingly large percentage)
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Refund
The man has assets : trading stock...
madf
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>>The man has assets : trading stock... >>
I wish the OP luck, but it is not always as straightforward as it may appear. There may well be a tangled web of intertwined companies and individuals, one has to be persistent with the enforcement procedure.
Try to get the bailiffs on your side, if you can. Been there, done that.
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I would echo this. I started proceedings against the trader I bought my car from back in October 2006. It has just about come to the end now. I won the case, but have received the princely sum of £10. My claim was considerably more than that. The main reason I have not received any more is that he currently has in the region of £170k of court claims against him as I was not the only one that he diddled! He is not in business any more, whereas the trader that sold the BMW still is so that will probably increase your chances of success considerably.
Good luck- really hope it works out for you.
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I pursued some shyster thru the SCC for £80 - got it back plus all my costs. If you win and loser defaults they are in breach of a court order. Get the bailffs in to enforce the judgement, either their business or their home and take away a car or a plasma TV. Concentrates their minds wonderfully!
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Only concentrates their minds if they own anything worth taking. I spoke to the bailiffs for my case and they explained it wouldn't be worth the visit (although they stressed they would if I wanted them to- I get the feeling he enjoyed his job) but anything in the house that was of any value was on Hire Purchase, therefore they coudn't touch it.
The other option should it get this far is looking at a charging order on the home- provided it belongs to the person- by doing that you effectively make the debt a secured one onto the property.
I should say that when I started proceedings I pretty much knew I would not get any money, but felt I didn't want him to get away scot-free. I wanted to make him feel uncomfortable and make it very difficult to do the same thing again to somebody else.
Based on the info with the BMW I think the OP has a strong case and should hopefully get a satisfactory result.
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Good afternoon hillman, I read what you say about a bailiff's inability to sieze anything on HP and I assume it is true. How does this read across the police powers to sieze and crush untaxed or uninsured cars, which may also be subject to HP ie not the legal property of the user? Just idle curiosity.
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Hello, to answer your question- I don't know. I am only going on what the bailiffs told me when I spoke with them. they had already visited the chap I was taking to court regarding a different claim against him and found that everything was on finance. I assume that the info they gave me is correct, but would be interested to hear from anyone else on the forum who could answer your question as you've made me curious too!
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Heed Aprilia's advice. You need to act quickly in these situations. As soon as you became aware of the actual condition of the car you should have taken it straight to an MOT station to get evidence you could produce in court should you need to. The trader will ignore you right up until the point he thinks he is going to loose money- i.e. the point he realises he will be taken to court where he will loose. Go to your local court immediately, the longer you leave it the weaker you case will become as this is all about the condition of the car at point of sale. I would not have left the car with the dealer as he may try and affect some bodged repairs. Given that you bought the thing in the first place it shows you know little about cars, so you should take note of the advice of the knowledgeable people here.
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Yeah I don't have loads of money to buy a brand new car if I did I would have!!
>>>>You did pay loads of money for the BMW badge though....
>>>>You could have bought one on ebay for £8, tinyurl.com/2jh8jh, and bought a Mondeo with the change.
This is an interesting thread. I really hope you get a refund (it seems a clear cut case to me).
Re the above point, I was just wondering how people can suggest you paid over the odds for a car which I don't think you specified the age or model of?! (unless I've missed it somewhere)
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in this hypothetical thread uncle r the car was valued by the trader at £5995 if mint, so it must be an s reg ;-)
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"I read what you say about a bailiff's inability to sieze anything on HP and I assume it is true. How does this read across the police powers to sieze and crush untaxed or uninsured cars, which may also be subject to HP ie not the legal property of the user? "
Ah! I can answer this as I work in HP World...
The Police will do an HPI check to establish if anyone has an interest in the vehicle. If so, they will contact us and tell us where the car is. It is then up to us to get our agent there sharpish to avoid storage fees mounting up. We usually have to pay to get the vehicle released. The process is the same for TfL, DVLA and HMR&C.
Cheers,
DB
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Thank you DB. Further to this, would you pass such charges which might accrue, to the user of the car ie the bod buying it on HP or would you have to pick up the tab?
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We would pass the charges on, however as the hirer would no longer have their vehicle then they would be unlikely to pay even their normal instalment!
We haven't actually had any instances of police seizure as we are a relatively young company.
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and how are we getting on then sc@ff?
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bump
bell-boy: you can try bumping the thread forever, and maybe sc@ff will lurk one day and decide to reply.
however, a lot of people, including many long-time members here, tend to ask a question and getthier replies but then never bother to update or close the thread. one particular mod too is guilty of this trait . i try to avoid replying to their questions once their habit becomes obvious.
the above phenomenon is particularly true of one-shot questions where the person has joined just to ask about their problem and then disappear from the forum never to be heard from again.
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To be fair, once a question goes from the front page the thread often dies a quick death. I asked about CLK's a while ago, got a few replies and then nothing.
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Dalglish....I agree with you 100%. Many times I have read (or used) requests such as "Let us know the outcome" but it seldom happens.
eg..www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=52280
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Just to add to this re: Aprillia's comment about acting quickly - I wish I had done this in connection with our recent aggro over a company selling my uncle an adjustable bed for £1600, which is worth about £150. We let trading standards pursue it and six months on no refund. Now we are about to start Small Claims action - should have done this straight away instead of having faith in the system. Anyway a story may be in the Yorkshire Evening Post soon so W Yorks backroomers read your YEP carefully over the next few weeks.
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Apologies to you all for not repling sooner - believe it or not its still going on!
After sending VOSAs report and the MOT Refusal Certificate we heard nothing - what a surprise. Then we wrote again asking for our money back. We had a reply this time! They were NOT going to give our money back but were now only prepaired to fix the MOT failures, not the head gasket - seems he had a change of mind on this one!
To cut a long story short, after seeking legal advice we made a cliam at the court. The trader had two weeks to file a defense etc. tHe deadline was on monday and surprise surprise he put a defense in at 4pm on monday afternoon! Talk about dragging it out and making us suffer. The car has been sat on our drive for almost 4 months now - not MOT, no Tax and no insurance (can't do the last two as he won't sign the log book!)
We are now waiting for more forms from the court and we'll take it from there. One things for sure though, after all this time and everything he has done we are even more determine to not let him get away with this.
I'll try and keep you up to date as best I can
Thanks for all your advise along the way though.
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Can you claim for interest costs too? (i.e. £4,000 for three months at 2% over Bank of England base rate) no doubt somebody will know whether you can claim that through the small claims track.
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We are claiming for interest as well as. We were told by a solictor that we can do this, we were also told to claim for expenses. Right now if we got the £4000 and also got rid of the car from the drive I'd take it in an instant! At this moment in time we can't really afford to get another car so we are having to make do without! Can't tell how difficult at times it is without a car!
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Full marks for going the distance.
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I think I would pursue this until the day I died. £4000 is too much money to walk away from but the arrogance of this muppet would make me inclined to chase him even if it was just for £100.
The only problem is in my experience (and I have had people owe me money do this) these people rack up so many of these then either liquidate the company (if it is Ltd) or declare themselves bankrupt. In either case, they will almost certainly owe HMR & C money and the law says that they always get first dip in whatever monies are left (After finance and secured loans have been paid should property be sold)
I really hope you get this scumbag before he does something like that
Good Luck
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Thanks Stuart - feel as though we need the luck! After re-reading our letter from the courts today it turns out that the trader has only put in an acknowledgment of the claim and not a full defense - meaning he has a further two weeks to response! Its not that complicated to put in a defense, hes just making us wait, dragging the whole thing out. Every letter we have sent him (and there has been a few!) he has always replied AFTER the given deadline, so really this comes as no surprise. It seems as though its all about making us suffer! All he needed to do was to refund us the money four days after we bought it, if it were me I wouldn't want the hassle! It also makes me think that this has happened to him before. I just really hope this goes in our favour!
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Just to be negative. as though you haven't had enough problems.
If/when you get judgement in your favour, that is most certainly not the end of it. The judgement has to be enforced, which IIRC, means another trip back to the Court.
In one of my earlier posts in this saga, I mentioned getting the bailiffs on your side, have a word with them - does the defendant have other unsatisfied warrants? Is he a man of straw? Is he a limited company or a sole trader?
If a sole trader is the house full of stuff on HP or on rental? The bailiffs cannot seize certain items essential to living or the tools of his trade. There may not be much left worth seizing.
Good luck.
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