111 an mot is an mot
i think aprilias post is spot on the nail
put it another way if the bmw was mine and i had spent an extra £400 on the car by changing the bottom arms the balljoints and the rear bushes to make the car as new even though the car passed an mot would your sister? buy the car off me?
no---------------- i would be uncompetative
i see this day in day out ,i explain to customers how its checked over parts replaced etc and what do i get? how much cheaper can you do it for is the answer
i dont have the answer by the way as its now a british disease,thankfully in a year i meet enough people not driven by saving a shilling to keep my business going,however if i had my time again no way would i be in an industry where saving ten bob comes before giving a proper service
look around you in your town and village
nobody wants to pay anymore its" i want it cheaper cheaper cheaper" the pubs shut the bakers shut and the butchers shut
i shall go now before i hang myself -(
only kidding
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In reply to bell boy:-
Well Said, spot on!
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The local garage did say it was a borderline MOT pass whichI find strange considering it has just passed the MOT before she purchased the car. Surely you are looking for a car to be of a quality higher than a borderline MOT no matter what the make?
Depends whether you are buying the car or selling the car!
Really, there is no such thing as a 'borderline' MoT - what they are saying is that its passed, but with a little more wear & tear it would be a fail. Bascially if the bushes are intact, even though 'soft', a BMW will pass. If the bushes are splitting and breaking up then its a fail - the MoT is actually quite 'slack' in the requirements for bushes IMHO. The front suspension of the BMW is not actually that robust and the bushes are a fast moving item for GSF/ECP etc factors. Its not really a big deal if you can DIY, but if you are paying other people to do the job then its not cheap.
From the sellers perspective the car has passed the MoT and is roadworthy - the fact that it doesn't drive like a new BMW is a 'wear and tear' issue. Its a bit like buying the car and then complaining that the tyres have only 2.5mm tread and don't grip well in the wet - well, the tyres would be legal, but obviously they won't perform like new tyres.
To be honest I think you will have to put this one down to experience and stump up for new shocks and bushes if you want the car to handle like new. I think the dealer is on safe ground (assuming that bolt isn't really missing!). I know its not what you want to hear, but its being pragmatic.
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in reply to iii :
as bill-payer said, look at honestjohn's faq no. 4 (accessed from the left column here).
and especially, read the final teo paras and the final link in that faq :
www.dti.gov.uk/files/file25486.pdf
A traders guide: the law relating to the supply of goods and services
also, bear in mind:
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?f=4&t=33...1
remember, 2nd hand car sales merchants (whether the one you dealt with or those who may reply to this thread) may not be all that keen on your persuing your consumer rights. they will try to fb you off that it is all wear and tear, especially to be expected on bmws, which are all owned by non-caring owners who like to thrash the life out of them, even though you may have just purchased the car.
good luck.
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Dalglish i see you most days, you put the independant smaller garage down, you wave your arms around ---------but when it comes to buying a cheap safe reliable car for the daughter to go to college in, you come to me.
Please say you dont wear shorts and wear jesus sandals
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oldman bell boy,
:: ; -) ::
of course i will come to you. i know i can trust you to look after my daughter.
just as i go to the estate agent to buy or sell a house, and just as i read the articles written by journalists, and just as i am happy to let the country be run by politicians. as we all know, the four most respected and trusted "professions" are 2nd hand car dealers, estate agents, journalists and politicians. they all have the interest of joe-public first and foremost in their mind.
:: ; -) ::
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I can see both sides of the story but I can't accept the the view from others that it is all about price and only price. No matter what car you buy it should be in good condition and priced accordingly rather than selling rubbish which results in a bad reputation.
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But is it rubbish? You have differing opinions. It would pass an MOT. As Aprilla said there is no such thing as a borderline pass.
Your main problem here is actually proving you have a problem on what is after all a used car.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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There is one thing that is true, she nearly lost control at a roundabout which was down to the car not the driver. How used does a car have to be and did it deserve to pass the MOT?
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Have it MOTd yourself at another garage.
And how do you prove she nearly lost it due to the car? Frankly it indicates she was driving near her and the cars limit.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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The independent garage drove the car and said it was unsafe plus I have to admit she is a good driver :o)
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The only way to resolve it is to get a truly independent examination of the car from the RAC or AA or whatever they're called today and then take it up with garage afterwards.
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There is one thing that is true she nearly lost control at a roundabout which was down to the car not the driver.
Difficult to prove that one. I have driven BMW 3-, 5- and 7- with worn front bushes and they do feel 'jittery', very much so if the road surface is not smooth. You have to drive according to road conditions and car's capability.
>>How used does a car have tobe and did it deserve to pass the MOT?
You could do a 'reverse appeal' on the MoT, but I think you'd be out of time now (at one month from purchase). Why not put it through an MoT at a trusted local garage - that should highlight any serious defect, if one exists.
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Difficult to prove that one. I have driven BMW 3- 5- and 7- with worn front bushes and they do feel 'jittery' very much so if the road surface is not smooth. You have to drive according to road conditions and car's capability.
Very True, so have I, perhaps more of you should take on borad what Aprilia has to say........
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... rather than selling rubbish which results in a bad reputation. ..
you have goog reasons to believe it is rubbish. two independent garages have backed you up.
in any case, the law is on your side. you do not have to prove anything:
"...the consumer returns the goods in the first six months from the date of sale and requests a repair or replacement or a partial refund. In that case, the consumer does not have to prove the goods were faulty at the time of sale. It is assumed that they were. If the retailer does not agree, it is for the retailer to prove that the goods were satisfactory at the time of sale. This comes from Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002, derived from EU Directive 1999/44/EU which became Clauses 48A to 48F inclusive of the Sale of Goods act in April 2003..."
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"...the consumer returns the goods in the first six months from the date of sale and requests a repair or replacement or a partial refund. In that case the consumer does not have to prove the goods were faulty at the time of sale. It is assumed that they were. If the retailer does not agree it is for the retailer to prove that the goods were satisfactory at the time of sale. This comes from Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002 derived from EU Directive 1999/44/EU which became Clauses 48A to 48F inclusive of the Sale of Goods act in April 2003..."
I think you will find that wear & tear is STILL taken into consideration. The above act is not the gospel that many contributing to this backroom beleave it to be. How do I know? Because I have spoken to trading standards about it.
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I can see both sides of the story but I can't accept the the view from others that it is all about price and only price. No matter what car you buy it should be in good condition and priced accordingly rather than selling rubbish which results in a bad reputation.
Is there anything else wrong with this car, or is it just the suspension problem? I think a fair percentage of 3- of this vintage and mileage would be the same. Nip down to your local branch of ECP or GSF and you'll find they have suspension arms, bushes, balljoints for this car sitting on the shelves. They don't keep 'em there because they look pretty, they stock them because they are fast moving parts. Like I said, if its got MoT then put it down to experience and get the parts replaced - it will improve the handling no end. TBH no dealer is going to replace these parts if they are capable of passing an MoT...
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sorry but if you want a 'poser' car you gotta pay the bills. No cheap way out.
If u want bread and butter, safe ,cheap motors - get Fords etc.
For the price of a five year old BMW I get a year old Mondy- with nothing dropping off!
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I agree there but she wanted a BMW and should have got a car that does not need major repairs.
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I think a fair percentage of 3- of this vintage and mileage would be the same.
I'm sure you're right but I think it's reasonable to expect a large dealer chain such as the one that supplied this car, to only retail good condition cars, and to pass cars that immediately really need hundreds of pounds of suspension work into the trade.
OK, this may have slipped through their no-doubt exhaustive quality control procedures but they really ought to take it on the chin and either do the work or take the car back.
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That sounds sensible to me!!
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Thanks for all your views and help.
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I'm sure you're right but I think it's reasonable to expect a large dealer chain such as the one that supplied this car to only retail good condition cars and to pass cars that immediately really need hundreds of pounds of suspension work into the trade.
Sorry, but I can't agree. Firstly, the selling company is 'the trade'.
Obvioulsy I have not seen the car, but assuming that its recent MoT is legitimate then it does not immediately need repair. Its a six year old car with 60k on the clock - its a well used car, not a new car. You can't expect it to perform like a new car. Bits will be worn, possibly the paintwork marked, some wear evident on the trim. It won't be as good as new, that's why its a lot lot cheaper than a new car. Too many people expect too much when they buy a used car. An MoT indicates that the vehicle meets the basic requirements to be roadworthy (at the date of test). If you require a higher level of scrutiny then have a DEKRA, RAC or similar inspection.
It sounds to me that this car does not have any 'faults' in the legal sense (i.e. nothing broken or requiring immediate replacement) but that there is simply typical deterioration that is still within MoT limits. Obviously all this is said without benefit of inspecting the car - I would be interested to hear the outcome.
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If the car were that bad then surely this terrible handling that caused such a problem would have shown up on the first day rather than a month later
--
I read often, only post occasionally
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Sorry but I can't agree. Firstly the selling company is 'the trade'.
I meant that it probably should have been sold as a trade sale (to another dealer) or sent to an auction.
Obviously I have not seen the car but assuming that its recent MoT is legitimate then it does not immediately need repair.
Obviously I haven't seen it either, but I'm taking at face value (as there's nothing else to go on) the statements made in the OP's OP:
"They concluded that the car was not safe to drive and she should take it back to the garage it was purchased from right away to get it repaired.
So off she went back to the garage in question who got a technician to have a look but he said the car was fine. They then got another technician (BMW trained) to have a look and he agreed with the local garage to what was wrong and also recommended that all four shockers should be replaced."
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Surely worn bushes, albeit nearly legal, wouldn't cause the apparent loss of control? I can appreciate the bushes might cause loss of fine feedback, due to backlash, but a complete wash-out? If it was so bad, it warrants a full examination, including the integrity of the chassis. Might be due to a prang, incorrectly repaired.
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My sister went back again today to see if the BMW trained technician would put it in writing that he recommends the work should be carried out along with the four new shockers but no luck there which is not surprising.
She has now hired a car as she does not feel safe. Do you think she is being over cautious?
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She's definitely not being overcautious - she's going to end up paying for a hire car and then a repair to the BM, so it might be better just to bite the bullet, accept you dont get new for old money (unless Abanazer's about... and i think that was just lamps...) and get her bushes done... as Aprilia has suggested.
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Did she test drive the car before purchase?
Was it ok then? If not why buy it? If it was ok then what has happened since the sale to make it different? Clipped a kerb, driven over kerbs etc etc? If car has been ok until this roundabout is she beginning to drive it past its limits? If it was weird hadnling before this roundabout it should have been checked by competent person? has this "missing" bolt been replaced by anybody? If not why is it still being driven? The owner has responsibilities too!
Unles any qualified person is prepared to put it in writing that it is dangerous to drive because of a defect that was, or should have been apparant at the time of sale, then I too feel that the selling trader has obliged his legal duties?
Especially if he put a genuine 12 month mot on the car at the time of sale. He cant do much more than that to ensure the car is roadworthy, especially if the mot is from an unconnected business?
Without inspection it looks like worn items not dangerous items. Its buyers responsibility at the time of sale to decide if car feels right etc; or to get an inspection, or to take an experienced person etc etc etc.
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She will definitely be getting the RAC to have a look so it should be interesting to find out what they have to say. According to my sister the technicians blame sales and sales blame the technicians???
At what price do you expect to get a 6 year old 316 which would not require this type of repair?
To be honest I have been quite surprised to find out cars from such a big company can be in this condition. I suppose I am lucky in recent years to be able to buy new cars but as we have an addition to the family we will be looking for a second car. To think I could be sold a car in this condition is quite a shock but I am obviously naive when it comes to second hand cars.
I think both buyers and the trade have to change their way of thinking. I would rather pay more for a car that does not need any serious work, but that might just be me?
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III
The BMW E46 is very well known for requiring front suspension refurbishment at this sort of mileage. I think you are getting things out of proportion, its not a big deal. I am no expert at working on these, but I've fitted new arms, bushes and 4 shocks on an E39 (5-series 'big brother') in well less than 6 hours with stops for tea, dinner, and to read the paper. Just find somewhere with sensible labour rates (not the main dealer!). Any decent garage will be able to do it - no special skills needed. Get someone to check out the rear subframe bushes though - they are a pain to do (there IS a special tool for these) - but they'll probably be OK.
My advice to anyone buying a car is to get it inspected by someone who knows about motors - either DEKRA, RAC or trusted garage/mechanic etc. There's a lot of people jumping at the chance of a 'trendy' or 'prestige' motor (BMW's, Audi TT's, new Beetles) and they find its not as good as they'd hoped. People these days seem to be less and less mechanically aware. You just cannot go out an buy a six year old car, of any brand, and assume it will drive like new.
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Thanks for that Aprilia I am the sort of person who does not know much amount cars so getting someone like the RAC is probably a good idea.
I just hope it all works out in the end.
Thanks.
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There have been other threads on here about things like brake discs that just get through the MOT should they be changed as the car is going in as part exchange to a dealer - few people would contemplate laying out large sums for for things like this - that's probably why they are getting rid - the expensive repairs are coming due. I can't really see it being economical for a dealer to to replace all wear and tear items that aren't needed at the present time.
These are second hand cars.
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III,
What is your sister's driving experience? Has she moved up to a BMW 316 from a more underpowered car? Is she only used to FWD instead of RWD? Did she get caught out by an unfamiliar road?
If it frightened her enough to be now in a hire car it must have been a right old moment.
Where i used to work, we'd regularly get accidents on a roundabout when it rained (i appreciate in your case you said it was dry) and invariably it would be a lady in an older 3 series (no DSC or traction control)....because, they'd try to drive round there at the same rate of knots as their old front wheel drive, apply the power too soon and then either do a complete 180 or fish tail up the road until coming to grief over the central reservation...(the road did have a known defect and was well slippery, when wet)
don't know why, but the Mercs didn't seem to do it......maybe it's the owners of BM's ? Jag drivers of course are far too refined....:-)
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in reply to iii :
does your sister know that 3 series e46 bmw are rear wheel drive cars which supposedly need to be driven with care on the wet round roundabouts?
see honestjohn's car by car
www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/index.htm?p_make=BMW...6
.....
Cornering brake control on early E46s could take over, but does make car safer in unskilled hands when a corner tightens up unexpectedly.
.....
Many E46s suffer premature front suspension balljoint failure. Bushes in front suspension wishbones often need replacing after 3 - 4 years. Means new wishbones. Spate of snapping rear coil springs on 4 - 5 year olds increasingly common.
.....
etc. etc.
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All the above comments about driving an older RWD car are of course valid, however the OP's sister is faced with a local garage telling her that the car was not safe to drive and that was (apparently) confirmed by a BMW mechanic at the supplying dealer, who also recommend further work.
Given that information, most people would be reluctant to drive the car. Imagine if it was in an accident and the insurance company (or even the courts) became aware of all these goings-on.
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I do agree with the RWD comments and I have pointed out that she needs to be aware of the difference between FWD and RWD cars especially in winter.
But I think Bill is right here if the garage technician has said there is work to be done on the car surely that should be enough for the sales dept to give the green light to the repairs.
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Hello Again,
Well I have an update on the BMW 316 story with a strange conclusion.
My sister was recommended an independent garage by training standards. So instead of getting the RAC to check the car she went to this garage.
So to recap, the first garage said the car was dangerous and should not be driven. The BMW technician from the dealer where she got the car said the bushes were soft and should be replaced and also required four new shockers.
So now it is the turn of the independent garage recommended by training standards who have said the car is fine however the problems she has been experiencing were down to a damaged alloy.
What do you think of this?
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training standards twice - I assume a typo?
So has she put the spare wheel on and have things got better.
If you're really still concerned then I can see the only way out is by having a proper engineers report on the vehicle. These people can write proper reports that can be used in court. Thye're not cheap though.
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Wasn't there a tale about BMW alloys that split circumferentially? Is that likely to cause the effects described, I wonder. Suggest as martint does, that an engineers opinion is requested, rather than a mechanics.
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As I've posted before on here, I've seen a few damaged BMW alloys - 'flatted'. However unless the damaged alloy has caused the tyre to deflate then I'm very doubtful that it could cause the handling problem you describe (unless the alloy is damaged in some very weird way and the wheel is literally 'hopping' along the road).
I still have money on some kind of suspension wear problem - simply because I've seen it a lot on BMW's and I have experience the 'twitchy' feeling that goes with it.
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I completely agree surely it has to be something more than just the alloy? She will be getting the wheel replaced on Friday so I will wait and see.
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