As always check the methodology. Isn't this one a self-selecting sample of people
apparently not. see
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?v=e&t=50...5
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Curious. I'd still like to see how many forms were sent out and how many came back. Would be interesting to see that for each make and model in the final list too - my expectation is that you'd see a higher response percentage at the top and bottom of the table. I also wonder whether the mid-table positions come from lots of 'OK's or from balancing numbers of 'Great's and 'Awful's.
Call me what you like but this modern obsession (I'm under 40, BTW) with reducing complex situations - health care, educational achievemet - to single values and one-dimensional league tables makes me suspicious.
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It is actually a very narrow spread, 71% to 85% for models and 74% to 86% for manufacturers.
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There are so many inconsistencies in these reports that they are not worth reading. There is no basis on mileage covered, type of use, purpose car bought for, expectation of customer etc. I cannot see a Prius doing many miles a year and therefore less likely for things to go wrong than say a VW Passat that spends 30K a year on the M1. Also anyone who buys one of these is likely to love it for the principle of what it is and forgive any inadequcies.
An A4/Passat and Octavia are based on the same platform with the same engines and transmissions with similar suspension and manufacturing techniques, is the Octavia really better than the other two or is the customers expectation lower than actually delivered by the car, does the Octavia driver do less miles and see a dealer once in 2 years as the car is on longlife etc?
One interesting thing though for BMW:
'High ownership costs and poor dealer service took the bloom off 5 Series ownership'
'The popular BMW 3 Series keeps owners happy with an appealing design, strong dealer service and respectable running costs'
Are we then to believe that all BMW dealers decide to give shoddy service when they see a 5series roll up and pull out all the stops when they see a 3series pull into the customer bay?
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There are so many inconsistencies in these reports that they are not worth reading.
>>
I agree now, I think these reports have had their day, as there are so many ways to skew the results. With regard to expec tation levels amongst owners, this is key to skewing the results in such a survey, as the Kia or Hyundai buyer is almost certain to have a lower expectation of their car than someone who has spent 4 x as much on a BMW or Audi.
Also, in the vein, the Kia or Hyundai owner/demographic will be unlikely to cover a fraction of the miles that the Audi/BMW/Merc owner will.
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There are so many inconsistencies in these reports that they are not worth reading. There is no basis on mileage covered type of use purpose car bought for expectation of customer etc. I cannot see a Prius doing many miles a year and therefore less likely for things to go wrong than say a VW Passat that spends 30K a year on the M1. >>
Agreed, cars like the Prius, perhaps Minis, MX5s etc will do perhaps less thah half the average mileage of Passats, Mondeos etc.
An A4/Passat and Octavia are based on the same platform with the same engines and transmissions with similar suspension and manufacturing techniques is the Octavia really better than the other two or is the customers expectation lower than actually delivered
I have made the sme point myself many times in the past.
Are we then to believe that all BMW dealers decide to give shoddy service when they see a 5series roll up and pull out all the stops when they see a 3series pull into the customer bay?
An inexcusable inconsistency.
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I'm with WillDB. I'm v suspicious of the methodology, which I think is flawed, and I look at the end results and think 'So what?'. There is relatively little 'distance' between the top and bottom companies, leading me to conclude that most customers are 'satisfied'.
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For general discussion of the merits of the JD Power survey, see
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=21961
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For general discussion of the merits of the JD Power survey see www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=21961
That was 3 years ago. A lot might (better still, should) have changed since then.
--
L\'escargot.
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That was 3 years ago. A lot might (better still should) have changed since then.
The cars will definitely have changed a bit. I don't think the survey methodology (or the critiques of that methodology) will have.
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>> That was 3 years ago. A lot might (better still should) have changed since then. --
What has definitely changed is the prominence of the results of these surveys in the publications they are printed in. They used to have front page billing, now they tend to be tucked away inthe back pages more. It's almost as if the editors know they have had their day but are under contract to publish.
I too ignore them - the example of the BMW 'service' says it all, but I remember a couple of years ago (can't remember if it was in Wot Car or TG) a Honda S2000 got a higher rating for practicality than a Galaxy. ?????
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There is relatively little 'distance' between the top and bottom companies leading me to conclude that most customers are 'satisfied'.
I couldn't have put it better myself.
--
L\'escargot.
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Having a Mitsubishi Grandis, I was interested to see where it came. Not in the survey but was surprised to see the Mitsubishi Space Star that was canned in 2005. Tried to look what cars were included and couldn't find details on WhatCars bt.
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Strange how no-one's noticed an interesting little factoid on this survey.
Renault, for years the kicking boy on surveys like this, seem to have climbed into mid-table respectability. Is this more "inconsistency" from the report, or have Renault genuinely turned the corner?
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My take on all these surveys is this: At the bottom end of the table, they tell you very little. But the fact that the Japanese companies are consistently right at the top, and have been for a very long time, proves that there is something in the Japanese reliability claims. They *are* better than the norm -- that is not to say that the "norm" is necessarily bad, but the Japanese cars are a cut above them. The sheer weight of evidence is irrefutable.
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Same with the Peugeot 307, it's dragged itself from the very bottom. Still a poor showing, I must have a good one!
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On its own then probably surveys like this aren't of great value. But as part of an overall picture then they certainly are. I don't know how JD Power obtain their revenue but I'm damn sure if these surveys were considered pointless then they would not spend the time and money doing them. More to the point, no one would pay JD Power to do them.
I don't buy the view that ownership profiles and mileage play an important part. Yes, a Mondeo is likely to be subjected to a harder life than Fiesta, cover more miles etc. But I doubt a Mondeo is likely to be subjected to a different ownership pattern than 407. Ditto Jazz versus Punto for example. Comparing like with like these results do tell us something.
If you look at all the evidence out there - JD Power, Which?, Autoexpress - not to mention the numerous websites - then a clear pattern emerges.
I know where my next car will be coming from.
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This JD Power survey covers many aspects of ownership and so faults and reliability are not major factors in a rating.
Take for example the Subaru Impreza entry:
"Ignore the Impreza's running costs, and it would be a potential class winner. Instead, the high costs of fuel and insurance push the Subaru into the bottom half of the table.
Still, owners must think it's a price worth paying, because the Impreza rates as above average in every other category but one. Owners told us its build quality and reliability were above average, as were the dealers, while the performance, ride and handling were excellent. Apart from the running costs, the only bugbear was the poor stereo."
So its a potential class winner, brought low by high insurance and fuel consumption. These are things that a potential purchaser would be aware of, I suspect, prior to handing over any money. The comment about the stereo is very valid - Subaru continue to fit those crummy Kenwood stereos.
The comment higher up the thread about buyers of cheaper cars not expecting as much as a Merc/Bmw/Audi driver amuses me. The fact is that for many purchasers of Japanese and Korean cars the reliability of these cars is a major (if not THE major) factor in the purchase. I know from bitter experience that the most critical owner is the retired guy who has bought a Toyota with his own money. 'Picky' would be a major understatement!. In comparison, the driver of a (probably company) Mercedes will be far more tolerant!
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Good points, Aprilia. And let's face it, no-one is going to buy an Impreza for the fuel consumption or insurance costs. They are bought almost wholly by people who want great performance at a reasonable cost with excellent reliability. Bt a glance at this survey would suggest to the uninformed reader that Subaru were not 'as good' as many other makes. It's comparing apples and oranges.
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But a glance at this survey would suggest to the uninformed reader . . .
The survey is presented in such a way that in order to get any benefit, the reader must be informed, and must do more than glance at it. Studying the detail, however, will tell you a lot more.
The idea of these surveys is good, and as I understand it, JP Power's sampling methodology is fine - but the presentation of the results leaves a lot to be desired.
It would be pretty simple to include the number of cars of each model on which the results are based (Which? does this). One could even include info about the average number of miles driven and the average age of the respondants if one really thought it was relevant. But the really irritating thing is that they come up with a score out of 100 for each vehicle, and only give a vague idea of how the score is calculated - whereas it would take no extra effort to give exact details of calculations.
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With acknowledgements to P.G. Wodehouse in his introduction to "the Heart of a Goof", I think that people commenting on this thread should state the vehicle they own and its position in the ranking. Then we could weight the impartiality of their comments.
V
Jag S Type - 16th
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people commenting on this thread should state the vehicle they own and its position in the ranking
Er... do we have the fifth amendment in this county?
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I meant country, of course.
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The comment higher up the thread about buyers of cheaper cars not expecting as much as a Merc/Bmw/Audi driver amuses me. The fact is that for many purchasers of Japanese and Korean cars the reliability of these cars is a major (if not THE major) factor in the purchase.
This always amuses me as well.
The argument might have held weight a few years ago when, for example, people assumed that a Skoda or Hyundai would automatically be poor quality, but bought one because it was cheap. This would artificially bump up the rating because when the owner owned it for three years and it gave faultless service, he'd be most impressed -- more so than say a Toyota or VW owner who expects good service. That's fair enough.
But to suggest that the people who buy cars from these marques now are still expecting them to be cheap and nasty is preposterous. Skoda and Hyundai have joined the ranks of VW, Toyota, Honda and Nissan as companies that owners *expect* will give years of faultless service. Indeed, when these companies fall back a notch in reliability terms (like VW and Nissan have a wee bit recently), owners start jumping up and down far *more* than a Renault or Vauxhall owner as they bought the car specifically for an easy life in many cases.
So for the like of Skoda, Hyundai or particularly Honda to be in the top half of the table is becoming increasingly difficult, not the other way around.
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The decline of the Ka has been interesting. (At least I find it so, since I own one)
In 2004, it was 45th out of 120
In 2005, it was 71st out of 124
In 2006, it was 100th out of 105
In 2007, it was 110th out of 113
Marked down for
1) "a large number of problems with the suspension" (well, at about 20,000 miles I needed new bushes and a new coil spring)
2) running costs. (I can't understand this - I get 45 mpg, and other than new tyres - and the suspension items noted above it costs me very little. Servicing at a dealer is just over £100 a year)
3) "owners disliked the way the car drove" (I can't understand this one either)
4) interior "cramped, badly laid out, poor stereo and ventilation system" (ventilation system OK. It's big enough for me, and I'm 6'1". I agree that the stereo and layout are not great, though.)
5) "car's styling received a definite thumbs-down" (I'm not particularly worried about what other owners think of the styling!)
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"car's styling received a definite thumbs-down" (I'm not particularly worried about what other owners think of the styling!)"
And the JDP survey is from drivers/owners which all goes to prove people buy cars first and regret later..
(like hasty marriages I suppose?:-)
madf
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I guess that 'What Car' might now stop recommending the Ford Ka (3rd from rock bottom). HJ
We'll see HJ. It's the great irony of these surveys that the magazines publish them, trumpeting their importance, and then pretty much ignore them for the other 11 months of the year as mediocre survey performers win road test after road test.
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>> Are we then to believe that all BMW dealers decide to give shoddy service when they see a 5series roll up and pull out all the stops when they see a 3series pull into the customer bay?
> An inexcusable inconsistency.
Is it though? Back to expectations again. The average 3-series owner was quite possibly driving something mass-market 10 years ago - think Ford/Vauxhall/VW or, God-forbid, Rover. The average BMW dealer maybe represents a step up from the average non-premium brand dealer. Many current 5-series owners were perhaps in a 3-series 10 years ago, or have significant experience of other premium brands.
These prior experiences will significantly colour your opinions. In my own experience, the Toyota dealer I use is a huge step up from the Ford dealer I previously dealt with - not that the Ford dealer was bad in any way, the Toyota one is simply better (so far...!). So, if I was filling the survey in, I would be giving high fairly high praise to the dealer.
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A general comment about surveys - whilst there are lots of interpretations that can be gleaned from the information that a (public opinion) survey gives, the only thing they prove is that they have been filled in by people who want to take part in a survey.
S6 1SW
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