Will Road Charging be a vote loser? - stunorthants26
Slightly political but then road useage is. Reading about the petition with now over a million signatures, how will this revolt affect how people vote next time they have the chance?

Yes, road charging is just one issue, but it affects so many people and if the charges are as predicted, it will hit a huge majority of people very hard, esp those of use who run small businesses and cannot go to our customers homes on the bus!

What opinions does the BR have on how much weight a political party that doesnt support road charging will gain? Are we going to see some serious back-peddling in order not to loose votes?

I havent met many people in my daily life who intend to take the road charging lying down and Im wondering if this will cause a big political shift - is motoring THE issue now in politics?
Will Road Charging be a vote loser? - Westpig
i hope motoring and the issues involved do become a major political factor at the next election.Without going too political.......i think one party in power too long, becomes complacent and arrogant...the road pricing petition is a good example....it will be utterly ignored because 'they know better'

yeah right...........they've lost sight of why they are there.........which is elected by us to run the country ON OUR BEHALF


road congestion could easily be solved......some examples if there was a Prime Minister Westpig

-trains to carry cars again.....so you can sleep all night on the train and drive off in the morning after a good
breakfast ...(would sort a lot of the holiday traffic)
-parking at major railway stations/tube stations to be free, multi storey, patrolled be a decent security firm
- buses to have conductors on them again (so decent folk can use them again without fear of assault/anti-social
behaviour)
-some of the road taxes ploughed back into rail infrastructure inc new rolling stock and rail lines that allow trains
to run faster
- park and ride sites from motorway services or right next to motorway junctions

Will Road Charging be a vote loser? - Cliff Pope
The big unanswered question is will this charge really be revenue-neutral or not?
If road tax and fuel duty are abolished then it could be a major vote winner, because we all like to think our own journeys are important and are not part of the problem.

But of course in reality the government have no intention of offsetting the charge.
The best hope, apart from a landslide election defeat, lies with the Scottish and Welsh assemblies, which have to agree to the scheme if it is to proceed.

In any case, if they don't see sense and quietly ditch it while there is still time, it is all going to end in a lovely bureaucratic disaster anyway. And when America invades Iran and the Israelis join in, they will turn GPS off.
Will Road Charging be a vote loser? - rogue-trooper
not flying any political flags on this one but speaking from a personal perspective.

it was interesting to note that there was a Labour MP who said that he would vote against this scheme as there was not a viable public transport alterantive in place. I think that that sums it all up fairly nicely.

as for road charging itself.

we already do so in a not so direct way in fuel taxation. now as cars get ever more efficient and the threat of hydrogen and electric cars is on the horizon, the revenue that HMG can claw back is going to be ever diminished, and we know how important the motorist is in contributing to the pot. HMG can't very well tell us that we all have to go green and then tax us at 80% when we do, so therefore the solution is road pricing.

we have already seen this happen to a certain extent with diesel. higher fuel duties are levied as there is a much higher mpg. I think that the argument for PM10s and lower CO2 from DERV has long gone as particulate traps I believe get rid of most PM10s (but I am not sure about things like PM2.5) and HMG seems to choose to ignore the lower CO2 outputs.

as for whether it will be a vote loser, I have to say that unless the public transport infrastructure is there in place, it will be. It will also be a hugely regressive taxation, which is interesting coming from a "socailist" party.
Will Road Charging be a vote loser? - doug_523i
They aren't going to use the American GPS, Europe is putting up it's own satellite network for this, which would suggest it's out of Parliament's hands in the long run.
Will Road Charging be a vote loser? - Armitage Shanks {p}
It is a chicken and the egg scenario! Will they give us a user friendly fairly priced public transport system and THEN force us off the roads or (more likely) will they raise the money and spend it on MP's pensions and an aircraft for the Prime Minister to go poncing round the world stage? As my mother used to say "Three guesses and no prize!)
Will Road Charging be a vote loser? - barney100
I have seen this system at work in Austria. Little box on the coach dashboard peeps and is picked up by a roadside device, computers store the data and then bill the road user......personally I think it is quite frightening If the government want this road pricing sure as eggs are eggs it will come- the only question is when.
Will Road Charging be a vote loser? - Dipstick
There will be no electable party standing that does not include some form of road pricing in its manifesto, so no, it won't be a vote winner or loser, I would contend.



Will Road Charging be a vote loser? - greenhey
Here goes.I'm pretty sure this won't be a popular view, but...
It's probably true to say that the general view of politicians is unfavourable , suspected of constant "spin" and avoiding difficult decisions. So you might expect they would shy away from doing something which would be very unpopular but which might benefit others in the future ( probably beyond the point where our current generation of politicians would get credit for it).
Dare I say Mr Livingstone also seems to fit in this "brave" category .in his case, for all the rage expressed by certain media ( eg talksport) he actually seems to be quite popular with London voters.
So whether or not you agree with the road charging idea, you'd have to say it's brave to do it, as there's no obvious political benefit and the green lobby who might like it will be vastly outnumbered by car users who won't .
The problem with congestion and pollution is that everyone wants something done about it , as long as it doesn't inconvenience or cost them.
Will Road Charging be a vote loser? - v0n
Dare I say Mr Livingstone also seems to fit in this "brave" category .in his case, for all the rage expressed by certain media ( eg talksport) he
actually seems to be quite popular with London voters.


He's not, really, in last elections only 1 in 10 Londoners voted for him. It is solely due to the bizarre voting system that he was elected as Mayor of minority voters without second round...
--------------------
[Nissan 2.2 dCi are NOT Renault engines. Grrr...]
Will Road Charging be a vote loser? - The Lawman
It will be sold as a green/anti congestion measure.

It will operate like an enormous tax, whether that is it's base rationale or not.

It will be dependant on complicated government sourced technology, so it will cost 10 times as much to impliment as is initially estimated.

A foreign country will win the contract to provide the kit.

It will be "rolled out" 5 years late.

It will spawn a thriving avoidance industry.

1 in 10 people wont pay it. There will be no traffic police to enforce it.

Capita will be paid 10s of millions to collect unpaid charges. They will not do so, and in due course it will all be written off.

There will be exemptions for swathes of public employees.

As soon as it is introduced and has run for a bit, the charges will go up by 40%.

Any successor government will not be able to vountarily give up all the extra cash it generates.
Will Road Charging be a vote loser? - Armitage Shanks {p}
Lawman - how cynical but looking at past Government run computer projects nobody could possible say that you are wrong! Additiionally

"Any successor government will not be able to vountarily give up all the extra cash it generates."

This will be because the money will have spent on NHS middle management jobs, urban regeneration, free drugs for druggies, safarai holidays for chavs and nothing to do with transport and the environment.



Will Road Charging be a vote loser? - rogue-trooper
greenhey,

not sure I agree with you, apart from your last sentence.

The money has to come from somewhere and motorists seem the best avenue. To be honest, as I am a lower than average driver, I am all in favour of regressive taxation as it will keep my income tax down. If you really want to get down to the nitty gritty and brave politicians, both HMG and Livingstone (who I can assure you I did not vote for and never will) need lots of money so that they can fritter it away on useless projects. Why not be "brave" and say that there is a large hole in their funds and they need to raise revenue by targeting motorists, who I think are without question the easiest target out there.

I suspect that if train prices were realistic and you could get a seat and it ran on time, I would use them more often (as would many others). I think that we all know that if this road charging came into force there would be no difference in the standard of trains. (it is interesting to note that in Japan the average time a bullet train is late per year is something like 8 seconds).

Greenhey, I am not sure if you live in London, but I have the (mis)fortune of doing so. I have not seen any improvements since Ken came about apart from paying about £400 a year more on top of my council tax and traffic in London getting worse due to crazy schemes our mad Mayor has introduced. The tubes haven't got any better and buses seem to run the same. Rather than waiting half an hour for 2 to come along at the same time, you now wait half an hour and three come at the same time. Apart from that, my suppliers and couriers charge more and I have to charge my customers more.
Will Road Charging be a vote loser? - stunorthants26
My main concern is for myself. Its not that I object to protecting the enviroment, but i dont believe this has anything to do with it - its based on the fact that most people dont have an alternative to driving. In my village, we have one bus in and one bus out everyday. How is that going to help me?

My car valeting business survives because I can stay within 25% of the static setups prices in town.
Road pricing would make it impossible to make profit and stay compettitive. Some of my customers are 15 miles away - at say £1 a mile on a £25 job, taking into account the other running costs for the van and materials, ill be better off staying at home.

Id give far more support to a draconian limit on CO2 of say 140 for all cars, IF that is indeed the real problem. Id also support fuel duty rising IF you were given viable vehicle options which were good for the enviroment and highly economical.

I think making unpopular decisions is not a sign of bravery, atleast not by this government, its more a sign of ' we can afford it as we get a nice paycheck so sod the little people'.
This will drive most people on minimum wages off the road completely - a car will become the preserve of the wealthy once again perhaps.

Will Road Charging be a vote loser? - Xileno {P}
There is no Opposition to, errr, Oppose.
Will Road Charging be a vote loser? - milkyjoe
one million e-signiatures,and the response will be one million e-acknowledgements not really worth the paper it isnt written on, should of been dumped outside no 10 on paper by the truck load to make any impact,but this bunch of criminals wouldnt listen even if a petrol pump attendant stood outside downing st and engulfed himself in premium unleaded
Will Road Charging be a vote loser? - Baskerville
Had it been any harder than a click of a mouse they wouldn't have collected anything like this number of "signatures". People don't care about this as much as this petition suggests. I spent a lot of time in my late teens and early twenties campaigning against things like the Poll Tax and student loans. Getting people to sign a paper petition is a tough task. Actually getting them out on the street, or committing real acts of civil disobedience/obstructiveness is nigh on impossible. But the idea that a clever politician won't listen to this is bonkers. All three main parties will be listening and they'll still push for road pricing schemes. What's the alternative? Is it any more palatable?
Will Road Charging be a vote loser? - Leif
"it was interesting to note that there was a Labour MP who said that he would vote against this scheme as there was not a viable public transport alterantive in place. I think that that sums it all up fairly nicely."

Exactly. Most councils are making roads more congested and polluted by creating bus lanes for big smelly buses, phasing lights to maximise journey times and so on. But a car is still quicker and more convenient. Buses in Luton are nearly empty most of the day except peak times. But they don't half stink.

Regarding road charging, the government have promised that tracking information will only be used for road charging, and not surveillance. Phew. That's a relief. I was beggining to worry that badly managed government bodies might be keeping tabs on me, and passing the information to other government agencies.
Will Road Charging be a vote loser? - Leif
"Had it been any harder than a click of a mouse they wouldn't have collected anything like this number of "signatures". "

Odd. They make democracy easier, allowing more people to have their say, and you then argue (I think) that this makes the result unsound. Why? Surely it is what people believe. Or do we only count the votes of people who care passionately, and would be willing to walk a few miles. In which case should we discard general election votes of people who did no more than hop in a car and drive to the polling booth, and only accept votes from people who cycled/walked? Perhaps only thin lentil eating lefties (1) and poor people would be allowed to have a say.

(1) Do such sterotypes exist anymore? Or have they been replaced by organic food eating Eton educated windmill buying Tories?
Will Road Charging be a vote loser? - Baskerville
"Had it been any harder than a click of a mouse
they wouldn't have collected anything like this number of "signatures". "
Odd. They make democracy easier, allowing more people to have their
say, and you then argue (I think) that this makes the
result unsound.


No I don't think it makes the result unsound only that it shouldn't be compared with "One milion signatures!" petitions of the past, which were really difficult to achieve. Many of the people who "signed" this would go no further in their objection, so all I'm questioning is their commitment, when it comes to a general election, to make this a vote loser--judging that is what politicians do. Sure a million or more people are annoyed about it, but it doesn't tell us much about how annoyed they are. And they don't have to be very annoyed to "sign" this. That doesn't diminish the result, but it might diminish its significance as a sign of what's to come.
Will Road Charging be a vote loser? - turbo11
I signed it,and I would go much further.I have been on protests of a different nature before and I am sure with this government I shall be again.No point in complaining if you haven't got the guts to do something about it.
Fine for those who live in cities and large towns but impossible for those of us who have to commute long distances.I will not be priced off the road and out of work by this or any other government.
Will Road Charging be a vote loser? - Leif
No I don't think it makes the result unsound only that
it shouldn't be compared with "One milion signatures!" petitions of the
past, which were really difficult to achieve. Many of the people
who "signed" this would go no further in their objection, so
all I'm questioning is their commitment, when it comes to a
general election, to make this a vote loser--judging that is what
politicians do.


Okay I see the point you are making. I agree that politicians tend to make decisions based on what they think they can and can't get away with. And issues such as road pricing and speed cameras don't yet have the sway of the NHS or Iraq. But I think that is simply because do not realise what it will mean. Once road pricing is introduced, it will hit people far harder than expected and it might well become a vote loser.

That is assuming that it does not achieve the desired effect of reducing congestion without destroying the economy which I doubt.
Will Road Charging be a vote loser? - Baskerville
That is assuming that it does not achieve the desired effect
of reducing congestion without destroying the economy which I doubt.


Well quite. The fact is we got into this mess over the course of decades and we will have to get out of it over a similar period of time. I don't think any of the parties is suggesting introducing measures tomorrow. Unfortunately our current way of doing things is dependent on cheap fuel and the falling cost of private road usage. Whether there is road pricing or not, that won't last.
Will Road Charging be a vote loser? - tyro
politicians tend to make decisions based on what they think they
can and can't get away with. And issues such as road
pricing and speed cameras don't yet have the sway of the
NHS or Iraq.


Spot on, Leif.

Politicians can and will introduce unpopular legislation as long as they do not think it will a) cost them their seats or b) bring people onto the streets and creating public disorder. To influence politicians, you either have to have enough people changing the way they actually vote - which probably means around at least 3 or 4 % of the electorate, which means at least a million voters in the UK. And they have to be changed votes - if you anger people who would not have voted for you anyway, it's not a problem.

However, if you cannot get a million people to change the way they vote, if you have 50,000 people angry enough to take to the streets, you can make politicians sit up and listen. However they must be badly behaved and a threat to public order. Politicians don't worry about peaceful protests - they worry about riots.


>>But I think that is simply because do
not realise what it will mean. Once road pricing is introduced,
it will hit people far harder than expected and it might
well become a vote loser.

>

Ahh, you mean like the poll tax?
Will Road Charging be a vote loser? - J Bonington Jagworth
"Will Road Charging be a vote loser?"

Do bears, er, live in the woods?
Will Road Charging be a vote loser? - nortones2
It is not a question of "being priced off the road", when there are alternatives that can be adopted. One is to minimise costs by using more efficient vehicles, of lower drag. How many very large vehicles currently run at very high speed? They don't seem to be deterred by fule costs. If congestion is to be tackled, given that more road provision is not an answer, then some form of deterrence is needed to prevent bottlenecks. This need not prevent rural drivers from using their cars or indeed bicycles, but entry into overcrowded cities and towns cannot be unregulated, as it is now except in very central London. An alternative is more use of park and ride etc. Given that all parties see congestion as an issue, I'd expect the matter to be vote neutral. the current lot will be kicked out for more substantial reasons than an imagined war on motorists.
Will Road Charging be a vote loser? - Hamsafar
www.theregister.co.uk/2007/02/12/road_pricing_and_.../

Good article from an IT Magazine.
Will Road Charging be a vote loser? - Old Navy
Maybe the italian's have realised that motorists are voters. In Milan there are huge spotlessly clean and secure multi story carparks at the end of the underground lines near the ring road (6 lane motorway). Cost 1 euro to park all day and 1 euro each way to Milan centre.
Will Road Charging be a vote loser? - Brian Tryzers
> ...those of us who have to commute long distances...

There's a point in itself. Plenty of us have jobs a long way from where we live - I'm actually contemplating an offer of one myself - and we all regard this as essential travelling. But is it? Quite apart from what it does to family life, with children imprisoned (provocative word - see who bites!) in schools, nurseries and holiday clubs for ten hours a day, we're burning vast amounts of fuel on moving one person from A to distant B and back again, five times a week.

This is where we need the joined-up thinking I've ranted about elsewhere - people do all this travelling because there's a bigger salary somewhere else, which they want because they have a £2,000-a-month mortgage, which they have because one full-time job won't buy a family house in most parts of England any more, and they can't or won't move because that would take the spouse away from the job that leaves time to pick up the children from the nursery where they're kept indoors all day with only a few dim 18-year-olds for company.

I could go on, and I've used some deliberately provocative language here. I know it's political because life is political, but it's not party-political: our way of life here has come to rest on a number of assumptions like this that could be challenged but very seldom are. One of them is that whatever we do mustn't damage The Economy, but why is that? If it was wrong - and people seem to think it was - to stop the investigation into possible BAe corruption because it might cause economic damage, is it wrong to recognize that we might have to curb our standard of living a little in order to maintain the environment in a habitable state?

This isn't specific to road pricing, incidentally, which seems to me to be a prohibitively complicated way of inducing people to change their behaviour. Consider one more possibility, though: that the government has set up the road pricing idea, and all the noise concerning the Downing Street petition, as a dummy policy to be knocked down by public opinion, so that whatever takes its place will seem altogether more acceptable.
Will Road Charging be a vote loser? - Ravenger
The problem is that these days there's no such thing as a job-for-life. People have to change jobs much more frequently. I moved from Kent to a northern city about 10 years ago, as I work in a field that's concentrated in a few small areas, and that city had quite a few businesses that used my skills.

For seven years I could walk to work - only took 20 minutes. Then the place closed down, and in the time that I'd been up there most of the other businesses in that field of work had closed down too. The nearest job I could get that paid a decent wage was a 35 mile commute away.

I support my wife who is a housewife, and two school-age children. Moving is not an option, I simply couldn't afford the inflated house prices.

Driving is pretty much the only option. Luckily I car-share with two other colleagues so I only drive once every three weeks. Works out much cheaper and quicker than getting public transport ( i.e. a bus, a train, then another bus = over two hours).

If the government implements road-pricing it could possibly make it no longer economic for me to commute at all.

The biggest factor that would help congestion is mandatory school buses. The schools near me are on half-term this week, and the roads are very, very quiet.
Will Road Charging be a vote loser? - Robbie
"One of them is that whatever we do mustn't damage The Economy, but why is that? If it was wrong - and people seem to think it was - to stop the investigation into possible BAe corruption because it might cause economic damage, is it wrong to recognize that we might have to curb our standard of living a little in order to maintain the environment in a habitable state?"

Are you serious about not damaging the economy? Any hefty damage to the economy wil have an impact on everyone in the country, with the possible exception of the very rich and politicians.

I'm sure that the Government doesn't really want us to stop driving, it merely wishes to extract more money in order to develop more hair brained schemes and fill the pockets of its political allies. In today's Computer Weekly, Andrew Rollerson of Fujitsu has stated that Labour's multi-billion pound project to create the NHS's national computer system "isn't working and isn't going to work." This project is costing £20 billion of taxpayers' money.

Can you imagine what would happen if 90% of motorists took their cars off the road as it seems that Transport 2000 and other tree huggers would like to see? The economy would collapse almost overnight. The roads would be empty for the remaining road users, but where would the Government raise the shortfall in revenue? Where would the money come from to support education, the war in Iraq, the NHS, and everything else? Not to mention the unemployment that would be created.
Will Road Charging be a vote loser? - Dipstick
"...but where would the Government raise the shortfall in revenue?"

I don't think we need to worry that any Government will be stymied when it comes to revenue raising.
Less cars might = less tax take but will simply = more tax on other things, or new things, or things that used to be taxed and aren't any more.

Like dogs or windows, or more realistically, new and increased property taxes.



Will Road Charging be a vote loser? - daveyjp
"new and increased property taxes"

Already started with the Chancellors rehashed idea of development land tax which has failed four times previously and is doomed to failure again. Like Home Condition Reports and the current congestion charging petition consultees are screaming until they are blue in the face that it won't work. The costs to administer will potentially be more than revenue raised and he needs a raft of highly paid experts to undertake the collection work, not just a civil servant on grade 1, but good old Gordon carries on regardless oblivious to the issues being raised.
Will Road Charging be a vote loser? - Dipstick
I expect it'll just be another 10% on stamp duty then. Shove a couple of percent onto VAT whilst there. Easy stuff.

Will Road Charging be a vote loser? - Leif
The costs to administer will potentially
be more than revenue raised and he needs a raft of
highly paid experts to undertake the collection work, not just a
civil servant on grade 1, but good old Gordon carries on
regardless oblivious to the issues being raised.



I'm reading a book recommended by HJ about consultancies and their central role in gov. It does not make pleasant reading.
Will Road Charging be a vote loser? - Robbie
I don't think we need to worry that any Government will
be stymied when it comes to revenue raising.
Less cars might = less tax take but will simply
= more tax on other things, or new things, or things
that used to be taxed and aren't any more.
Like dogs or windows, or more realistically, new and increased property
taxes.


Do the maths. 90% less revenue from motorists is a huge amount. Plus a huge loss from the congestion charge. Motorists, being addicted to their cars, have grudgingly paid up. However, if it came to the push and 90% gave up motoring, this would have far reaching effects. Car manufacturers; dealers; petrol stations; all of those small manufacturing companies supplying the car trade; tyre makers and sellers; all of these would be hit and workers would have to be laid off. Think of the consequent loss of National Insurance contributions and Income Tax. No way could the Government make up this shortfall without a huge increase in personal taxation which would have a consequent loss in disposable income. This would have a drastic effect on the economy.

Fortunately, for the Government, this won't happen, because motorists will just pay up and accept it. The Governmnet really doesn't want this to happen either, so it will squeeze the motorist as much as it can and spin its way out.
Will Road Charging be a vote loser? - artful dodger {P}
Will Road Charging be a vote loser?

It certainly will. No driver thinks it as replacing an existing tax, but an addition to all existing taxes. It takes little though to see you will pay far more when figures of over £1.00 per mile are discussed. Are any roads worth paying £1.00 per mile? I cannot think of any. We have already paid many times over for all our existing roads.

Do I expect road pricing will be brought in? In the longer term I think we shall be forced by our political masters to implement it. I do not mean our elected government, but by the EEC. Their global positioning system to rival GPS will have to be paid for, so they will insist it is used to charge vehicles for using the roads. I have read some months ago that there is already a plan in place to use this new technology and we shall be forced to join in.

Returning to the theme of reducing congestion.

There are too many factors that are causing more of our population to travel further to work than ever before. Most of the population are motivated by money, they will work further afield if they can see it pays them move than the cost. Unfortunately some have no choice but are moved by the company they are employed by, so the company can make better profits (and if they are very lucky get a nice sum for moving).

Also we have to look at the planning reglations that have evolved over the past 50 years, these make areas for industry, retail, farming and housing, so you cannot live close to where you work.

The overcrowding of most areas in the South East has caused a housing shortage making affordable housing even further away from where you work.

Also the tax you pay when you buy a house can also be crippling (most first time buyers in the London have to pay at least £7,500 in stamp duty before any legal, survey, mortgage and removal costs). This cost is now making more people less mobile as they cannot afford to move, hence they will commute.

The cost of public transport is generally more expensive than using a car. You also have to wait in all weathers to be collected. Buses and trains are not as nice to be in as your own car. You might have to use several bits of public transport to complete one journey compared to a car. The public transport takes longer than using a car, especially if it is a bus that goes to all housing estates close to its main route. A car is personal transport that can take you where you want at a time that is right for you and at a better level of comfort - public transport has no chance. The only advantage of public transport is you do not have to pay to park a car (although this does not apply to everyone).

Considering all of these factors makes you understand the resentment that drivers are thinking when road pricing is discussed, so any political party suggesting implementing road pricing will be banished to the political wilderness at the next election. Let us hope our European neighbours agree and decide that road pricing is too invasive and help reject it in the EU Parliament.


--
Roger
I read frequently, but only post when I have something useful to say.
Will Road Charging be a vote loser? - Micky
Road charging should be opposed on the grounds that the gubmint is incompetent. Why, they might even post personal details of road users to other people. Imagine that.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/6348347.stm

">
Pensioners receive secret details
Thousands of pensioners have been affected by a government mix-up that resulted in personal banking details being sent to wrong addresses.
The Department of Work and Pension has confirmed as many as 26,000 such letters were sent out and added a full investigation is taking place.
One pensioner said the mix-up was "appalling" and "absolutely terrible".
Conservative MP Patrick McLouglin said the mistake was unacceptable and called on the department to "put it right".
The department issued a statement saying it takes issues of customer security very seriously.
'Absolutely terrible'
It said: "We stopped sending out these letters as soon as we discovered the error and no more will be sent out until the problem has been rectified."
The department said it will be able to trace all the letters involved - and pinpoint where each one went.
A spokesperson said they would be contacting everyone concerned so members of the public had no need to take any action.
"We send out 11.7m of these notices each year and the vast majority are processed without any problems."
One caller to BBC Radio Derby said: "One piece of paper belongs to a lady in Durham - it has her bank details and account number - and more information on her pension.
"In this world of fraud perhaps not everyone would be as honest as we are."
It could have gone anywhere - how can it happen that all my details are there?

Margaret Rothwell from Barnsley, whose details were sent to Bakewell in Derbyshire, said: "The sheer inefficiency is appalling. I am stunned and appalled - it is absolutely terrible.
"It could have gone anywhere - how can it happen that all my details are there?"

One letter containing a Leicester City councillor's national insurance number and bank account details were sent to a Derby pensioner.
Mr McLouglin said: "When an incident like this happens they (DWP) ought to say what has happened.
"We are being told by the government that we are going to have national database for medical record and national identity card system.
"How can we have any faith in further extension of all this technology?"
The department said any customers who received another person's details could call the Pension Service on 0845 60 60 265.
<"
Will Road Charging be a vote loser? - Kevin
>"Had it been any harder than a click of a mouse they wouldn't have collected anything like this number of "signatures".

Well if anyone wants to ask their own MP which side of the fence they are on and put forward your own (polite) views it's as easy as clicking a mouse anyway:

www.theyworkforyou.com/


Kevin...
Will Road Charging be a vote loser? - Hamsafar
BLAIR PREPARES SPAM ATTACK ON TRACK N TAX DISSENTERS!
By Joe Fay ? www.theregister.co.uk/2007/02/14/tony_emails_uk/
Published Wednesday 14th February 2007 16:42 GMT

Tony Blair is planning to put even further strain on Number 10?s creaking IT infrastructure, by emailing everyone who?s signed the infamous petition against road charging.
Over 1.4 million Brits have signed the online petition so far, with the servers handling the petition site buckling under the strain. Apparently there have been cabinet level mutterings suggesting whoever dreamt up the e-petition scheme was a ?prat?, even as the transport secretary said, in effect, ?debate is good?but we?re doing it anyway?

Now, the London Standard reports, Blair will personally email the shrieking populace to put their minds at ease about the proposals, presumably putting across the government?s argument that most people will pay less under the scheme. And it'll save the environment. Maybe. Problem is these arguments will cut little ice with those whose main objection is the idea of being tracked in their cars 24x7. Or with those who believe they have a divine right to drive where they damn well please.
First though, Tony has to make some tough choices. Does he further complicate matters by loading the government?s IT systems with what millions will simply decide is spam.
Or will he turn to the fabled ?secret? email system at number 10. You know, the one that was allegedly used to discuss cash for honours, and, in defiance of all the rules of government IT projects, worked like a charm.®
Will Road Charging be a vote loser? - stunorthants26
He can stick any email where the sun doesnt shine :-) its not like the man knows the difference between truth and fiction anyway!

The problem is simple - nobody believes this measure will affect the enviroment, just the government coffers.
What annoys me is that the people making these decisions about charging me to use the frankly dire roads in this country have no idea what its like to live with £50 spare each month and how road pricing could wipe out that £50 in a week. The rich never were very good at making the rules for the poor.

The idea that the vast majority of people will pay less is a myth because nobody in their right mind would believe that fuel and road tax would be abolished - its simply another tax, not a replacement and Mr Blur might want to give the general public a little more credit. We are not THAT stupid.
Will Road Charging be a vote loser? - artful dodger {P}
>>What annoys me is that the people making these decisions about charging me to use the frankly dire roads in this country have no idea what its like to live with £50 spare each month and how road pricing could wipe out that £50 in a week. The rich never were very good at making the rules for the poor.

Well said stunorthants26. Many believe road pricing will be the Poll Tax that will break a government. Many people who have been greatly affected in their pockets will certainly become rebelious and probably bring the whole system down.

At present the figure of £1.28 per mile is sticking in peoples heads as what they will have to pay for all their mileage. They also believe this will be on top of all existing road taxes and nothing else will be done to the transport system, all money raised will go into the Chancellor's pocket to spend/give away.

Nobody likes paying tax, especially when they think it is unjust, but I doubt there is sufficient spare cash in peoples pockets that can be extracted without adversely affecting the general economy. Controlled economies do not work and restrict economic growth, and it looks more and more likely that is the way we are heading under this government.

The poll on road pricing is certainly beginning to bring home peoples feelings on this matter and must be making some politicians realise the depth of feeling. It was only recently that it was projected it would make, 250,000, then 500,000, then 750,000, well it has now reached 1,400,000. Certainly not a majority of drivers, but exceeding all projections. Will it reach 2,000,000?


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Roger
I read frequently, but only post when I have something useful to say.
Will Road Charging be a vote loser? - stunorthants26
>> Well said stunorthants26.

It most likely would given enough time. What you have to ask yourself is how many people, if the entire country was asked, would sign if it was there in front of them - think of the thousands of people who dont use computers or the internet who would sign if they could.
The fact that 1.4 million internet savvy people have signed up is a clear indication of public feeling and 1.4 million people would make a difference at the polls too - may be worth watching Question Time and This Week tonight to see if there is any discussion on it.

Heres something that I find amusing but a little scary in some respects:

"1. A BNP administration would abolish the road fund tax on all private and commercial vehicles. We view this as an over-bureaucratic and unnecessary method of tax collection, inherently expensive to collect and easy for the lawless to evade. In addition, it provides a spurious justification for the maintenance and extension of the surveillance state. We would replace the funding acquired from the road tax with an element built into taxation of the purchase of non-renewable fuels.

2. Congestion of our towns and cities must be eased by the provision of greater incentives to use rail, bus, tram and Urban Light Transport (ULTRA) scheme transport instead of private cars. The first step is to end the crime and squalor that puts so many people off public transport.

3. Our building plans for human-sized cities will also see a general ban on out-of town retail/leisure developments. They encourage car dependence and socially disadvantage pensioners, single mothers and non-car (poorer) families. Such projects need to make use of brownfield sites within towns, linked by public transport networks.

4. Motorists will be freed from repressive and restrictive legislation; we want to see overall motorway speed limits raised, and made subject to variable speed limits depending on surface/weather conditions and volume of traffic. A motorway may, for example, have a 40mph limit during heavy rain, but a 90 mph limit during a summer's night.

5. We are committed to the maintenance of toll free motorways.

6. Speeding and careless driving kills and injures but we seek to save lives by making drivers more responsible. A tougher driving test is needed as well as the introduction of refresher driving tests for those drivers who have held a licence for 25 years and again after holding a licence for 50 years.

7. Hidden speed cameras will be prohibited. Speed cameras in places other than documented accident black spots will be made illegal, in order to prevent motorists being used as cash cows. Local authorities and highway agencies will be encouraged to engineer solutions to deal with accident black spots. "

Copied from the BNP 2005 manifesto, BUT it makes more sense than anything Labour comes out with - in what world are we living that the BNP talks more sense than the Government?
Will Road Charging be a vote loser? - artful dodger {P}
>>Copied from the BNP 2005 manifesto

Sounds as if the BNP are listening to what the voters want. Many good ideas, but I still would not vote for them.


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Roger
A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well.

Will Road Charging be a vote loser? - stunorthants26
Neither would I short of a gun to my head, but its a shame that they are the only ones listening to what the people want - Labour's ignorance to the average motorist will be their undoing, along with any other party who persues similar lines.
Will Road Charging be a vote loser? - Hamsafar
I am Indian, and I would vote for the BNP if they stood in my constituency. They came to my house when it was the European Elections, they were very nice compared with the other parties. They are not punk rockers.
Will Road Charging be a vote loser? - stunorthants26
They have a reputation for underlying racism though and as much as I dont want to be priced off the road, there are higher principles at stake - as and when they distance themselves from it I will take them seriously as I like many of their policies, just not the management.
Will Road Charging be a vote loser? - Baskerville
Sounds as if the BNP are listening to what the voters
want. Many good ideas, but I still would not vote for
them.


Fascists are always populists. They always offer people what they want and they always position themselves as "standing up for" the ordinary people. It happened with Hitler, it happened with Pinochet. They always do it that way at first. And the price is always a lot higher than people expect.
Will Road Charging be a vote loser? - Brian Tryzers
Well said, Baskerville - it'd take more than a few clear motorways (assuming they could even deliver what they promised) to persuade me to sign a pact with that particular devil.