Well there we go, have had the car 24 hours, noticed the light that comes on when you open the door doesn't work, one of the lights in the rear of the car doesn't work either, and the ABS ESP light has come on. I'm well slightly intoxicated off, and just don't know what to do. The car company are the classic salesmen not giving a toss about you. And to finish it off the manual is in Italian.
Can I reject it?
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My Mark IV Bora started with similar problems recently, including one door light not working and the engine stalling unexpectedly.
After cleaning the battery terminals, ignored for once because of the lack of winter weather, all the problems disappeared.
Another forum member, Peter D, informs me that this was due to resetting the ECU and the throttle idle servo motor, so it just might work in your case as well.
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Do nothing to it and take it back to the garage with a covering letter detailing the faults. Regards Peter
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sony
Looks like the battery went flat while it was sitting on the lot. The body-control ECU wasn't woken-up gently and has scrambled its configuration and the steering angle sensor in the column module has de-initialized and is sporadically setting an ESP code.
Off to the dealers for a full [on-line] CAN-network re-configuration.
[Disconnect, or flatten, a battery on a modern car and you'll enter a whole new world of grief.]
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Yes tell me about it. The Ran was a nightmare after the battery went flat and I got a jump start. The dash was lit up like a pub slot machine. To be fair over the course of the next 100 miles everything slowly reset back to normal.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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TVM
I'll bet you've still got 30+ assorted false fault-codes scattered among the various ECU's. Remember they'll still be there if you ever need to get it scanned.
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I fitted a new battery to my 1999 Passat 1.8t and the car ran like a dog afterwards. I was able to fix it by using VAG-COM and performing a "Throttle Body Adaptation" procedure. It seems that the throttle body stores all of its settings in volatile RAM. Very poor design in my opinion. As a software engineer, it isn't the way I'd do it. I hope the newer ones have a bit more sense.
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>>[Disconnect, or flatten, a battery on a modern car and you'll enter a whole new world of grief.]>>
Certainly not the case with my Bora - after reconnecting the battery leads it's back to normal and the Gamma radio/cassette/CD unit resets itself as its dedicated to the vehicle.
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Stuartli
You were one of the lucky ones; if your's is late enough to be CAN-BUS you probably still generated a whole raft of stored fault-codes.
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It's a November 1999 (2000 MY spec) 1.6 16v...:-)
I've disconnected and connected the battery leads several times over the past four years and, apart from the occasion I've mentioned earlier regarding cutting out, runs as sweet as a nut.
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Stuartli
Your ATN engine's ECU has certainly got CAN-Hi and CAN-Lo links to the ABS [for speed info] and the display ECU [for instrument data and immobilizer] but I think it's a bit early for the full CAN-BUS nightmare. They tend to get worse the later they get; '03-on is fully networked.
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Screwloose
Just been looking up the Haynes manual for my Bora and it obviously has numerous mentions of when to disconnect the battery.
One of the points made is that "the ECU is one of the "self-learning" types, adapting to changes in operating conditions and storing the optimum settings found (especially for idle speed settings).
"When the battery is disconnected, these "learned" settings are lost and the ECU reverts to base factory settings.
"After the engine is restarted it may idle and run roughly until the ECU has "re-learned" the best settings.
"To further this "learning" process, take the car for a road test of at least 15 minutes' duration, covering as many engine speeds and loads as possible, concentrating on the 2000-4000 rpm range.
"On completion, let the engine idle for at least 10 minutes, turning the steering wheel occasionally and switching on high-current draw equipment such as the heater fan or heated rear window."
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Stuart
Engine ECU's have been self-learning since at least the Ford Escort Mk III of '81. [Unless anyone knows of an even earlier one?] That's a rather different thing to corruption of the software of the body modules and the network linking.
I have discussed this very topic with friends at Haynes; they are part American-based, so have to be super careful of litigation, leading them to suggest battery disconnection for anything more ambitious than topping-up the oil.
H'n'T
Fly-by-wire throttle body re-adaption is very common after a battery change. If yours had ESP, I'm surprised that you didn't need your VAG-COM's steering angle sensor recalibration feature too. All this software is just too fragile and under-developed for the real world. You'd think that surviving loss of Terminal 30 feed would have been part of the design requirements?
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I'm aware that ECUs are self-learning - it was the overview that I was really trying to convey.
My Bora doesn't have ESP - it's the 2000 MY SE specification.
Thanks for your insight into the subject.
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sony Looks like the battery went flat while it was sitting on the lot. The body-control ECU wasn't woken-up gently and has scrambled its configuration and the steering angle sensor in the column module has de-initialized and is sporadically setting an ESP code. Off to the dealers for a full [on-line] CAN-network re-configuration. [Disconnect, or flatten, a battery on a modern car and you'll enter a whole new world of grief.]
This is progress?
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This is progress?
No, but it lets manufacturers save a few bob on wiring. We just have to live with the consequences.
Cheers
DP
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mss1tw
You said it!! I look 5 years ahead and I'm out of a job. [Good!!!] Cars will be throwaway items. Barely anybody can fix these things now. I spend a lot of my time in main dealers workshops fixing things that they're supposed to be the experts on!
All the good techs [the ones with IQs over 120] are getting out; it's just not worth the stress of trying to diagnose this level of complexity under time duress. If they get it right it's "Just how many 0.1s of an hour did you take - how can we charge for that?" - and if they make a quick "best guess" [and get it wrong] then they get; "That's coming off your bonus!"
The jobs not worth a light anymore - anyone know of a nice quiet spot on/around the Lochaber coast to build a "pottering" workshop just for "proper" cars?
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>>This is progress?
In terms of driving cars back to the dealers for servicing - yes! In terms of being good value for motorists, I'm not so sure.
I suppose that once the main teething troubles with Can-Bus systems have been dealt with, it will form a much more robust system in normal use. However, at the moment, it's a bit like the situation with CR diesels, in that there aren't too many who really understand them sufficiently to diagnose faults accurately. One problem is that even in a system which is nominally working OK, there can be lots of "quiet" fault codes kicking about, any of which could lead an unwary mechanic down the wrong path. I say "quiet", because they don't put the dashboard light on, but they do still exist on the system.
The Can-Bus itself is something new and strange to most mechanics. For those who have played about with SCSI systems on computers, Can-Bus can be a bit similar, with the possibility of unwanted signal reflections if the bus is damaged at some point, or isn't terminated properly. These reflections go on to produce a whole host of trouble codes, usually from each device on that particular bus - but, as the buses can be inter-connected, the problem isn't as well contained as it might be.
Number_Cruncher
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Just a sensor apparently and they will fix it. On the whole i thought modern cars were reliable? Please tell me they are, i just sold my mk3 golf as the old girl was getting on!
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sony
Do come back when they've fixed it and tell us which sensor it was that affected the interior lights and the ESP? What was their explanation for the handbook being in Italian? Was this once the Pope's car, by any chance?
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Well the interior lights were wear and tear so just replaced them- The italian service history and manual were the fact that an italian woman that bought the car new wanted them in her language. I now have an english one, but the service history book is still in italian (the car has full vw service history stamped (all english dealers!!).
So the sensor is just an ABS sensor which affects the ESP at the same time anyway, Car is a 53 reg GT TDI 150
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Enjoy it now - I have a friend who has one and she loves it.
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sony
So where's the original UK-supplied handbook and service book? Has this Italian service book got a paper label stuck inside the front cover giving all the vehicle details and equipment codes? Why would a lady want an Italian service book? Did she want to read-up about the PDI procedure? Very odd?
Just to make sure; ring up one of these servicing dealers and check that their computer records match the car's....
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Err - ok maybe I was wrong when I suggested in another thread that Toyota were no more reliable than the europeans.
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Screwloose- i did this on saturday, it has the sticker matching the sticker in the boot and main dealer confirmed it had been serviced there regulary. All above board!! Did find it more than a little odd myself this italian manual...
Pugugly- I had been wanting this car for so long- the 150bhp diesel feels so much faster than my vr, it really is amazing!! Newer car do feel so easy to drive!
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Well the interior lights were wear and tear so just replaced them->>
Wear and tear?
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I still think that the Japanese have got automotive electronics sorted much better than the Europeans. Anytime you take anything apart on a European car there is all this messing about 'recoding' the control modules. On a Japanese car you just plug it back together and it works! I'm sure this is why Japanese cars predominate in developing countries, they just don't have the time, money and expertise to continually nursemaid their cars, they just want them to work and be easy to fix when they go wrong.
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"I'm sure this is why Japanese cars predominate in developing countries"
In Afghanistan the Taliban use Japanese pick-ups, the PBI use Land Rovers. One side is struggling with unreliable vehicles. Guess who !
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i did this on saturday, it has the sticker matching the sticker in the boot and main dealer confirmed it had been serviced there regulary. All above board!! Did find it more than a little odd myself this italian manual...
I would imagine that supplying Italian manuals is actually pretty easy - the dealer just orders the relevant part numbers. However I'm totally amazed that these days, with generally unhelpful dealers, that they did in fact do this!
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