I have decided to change the A4 TDi in the next few months.
We will be going for another A4 (know the dealer and are very pleased with the service from him).
The different engine and gearbox options we are considering are:
- 2.0 TDi 140bhp multitronic
- 2.0 TDi 170bhp manual
- 1.8T petrol multitronic
Our current A4 has gone through two clutches in the space of a year (!). I asked the Service Manager if he thought we were doing something to cause this. He has had quite a few clutch replacements on TDis that do a lot of city driving - so apparently not our fault. (We have a seven year old Golf that has never missed a beat).
We do not do huge mileage every year - about 20k - so could take a petrol as easily as a diesel. I like the low end torque of a diesel but my clutch experience is putting me off getting another manual diesel.
The 1.8T is an old engine now but could be an alternative to the diesels.
I would really value your thoughts on:
- Your expeience with the diesel multitronic?
- Your thoughts on the VAG manual clutches?
- Your thoughts on the 1.8T engine?
Thanks for reading,
DF
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Our current A4 has gone through two clutches in the space of a year (!).
That would be a lot even for a city-bound taxi. I suspect there is a problem which your car - possibly the dual mass flywheel?
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Two clutches in a year and 20k, and you want another one?
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If you can wait a few months DSG (S-tronic) will be available in the A4. Far better than manual and if auto is preferred it's better (IMHO) than multitronic. Couple it with 170 PS and it will be a flier.
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My wife did 70k in her last A4 1.9tdi and IIRC has done 20-30k in her current A4 2.0tdi and with mixed driving, a lot around town and she's had no clutch trouble. There are tons of these A4 2.0tdi in our fleet and I've heard no mention of clutch issues so Aprilia is probably right in that your car has had a particular issue.
The new multitronic has much better pickup than the original but TBH I still had misgivings even with the new one and always left it in Sport mode when exiting junctions or entering roundabouts. I suppose if your mileage is nearly all city then it may be a good choice. The old one had reliability gremlins but I think these largely stemmed from not being maintained properly.
The 1.8 is a decent enough engine but long in the teeth and showing it. The 2.0tfsi is better in every respect so unless you were getting a huge deal I can't see the attraction. Why aren't you consider the 2.0tfsi? The 140bhp is very strong and economical but not the most refined in the class. I haven't driven the 170bhp tdi but it looks good on paper and is apparently more refined; somebody on either Tyresmoke or UKMKIV has driven it in a Passat and rated it. No substitute for some test drives.
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I have a 54 reg 130 TDi multitronic (the gearbox with the steel bands / belts on cones). It's plenty powerful enough for me and maybe once a month the front tyres will give a little yelp of suffering if I'm too quick to put my foot down exiting from a junction. I think they lasted about 24000 miles.
The gearchange is so smooth and the car is never in the wrong gear - so to speak. I guess it's close to driving an electric car. In an ideal world I'd love to carry on with it and then maybe get another, but this one now (from 12000 miles) seems to cough / slip on rare occasions and naturally the dealer (2 actually) can't find a thing wrong. It seems like a flat spot or a momentary engine miss or more likely some sort of transmission jerk / slip. When it gets to 40000 miles it will need new transmission oil (apparently as a result of some past box failures) and the 3-year warranty expires around then too.
So fearful of big future costs (it's privately owned) I'm going to have to part company with it then.
I'm thinking about the newer DSG system with electrically / hydraulically (??) controlled gear changes instead. Am I right in thinking this new system will be more reliable and just as economic?
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I have an A4 1.9 TDI 130, and are very pleased with it. Having had 2 x Passats and the A4, I can say that I have never had any clutch problems at all. I do not believe that it is normally possible to wear out a clutch in this sort of timescale unless there is some other issues with the car. Was the clutch slipping when you had it changed, or was it just juddering ?
The only engine compination I can comment on is the 1.8T which is still a strong engine by any standards. I have driven the 2.0TDI 140 and it is a little bit more refined than the 1.9, possibly due to it being 16V etc, but I wouldn't have said there was a world of diference. I plan to change my A4 early next year for the 2.0 TDI, as I can't think of a better car to buy for the money.
ie Mercedes not very good these days and more expensive, BMW : dont realy like the new 3 series, and the equivalent estate is much more expensive than Audi. Plus the fact that having had both, I think the Audi is cheaper to run than the BMW or Merc and probably has the best build quality of all.
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Would it be that the clutch was changed the first time... then the dual flywheel failed which they then changed with another clutch while they were at it. Common sequence of events.
David
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I had a 2.5 TDI multitronic - never any problems in 33,000 miles but the dealer said there had been some cars with transmission trouble (but they had been able to spot the problem and repair it - this was Aston Green Audi of Slough). If Mercedes hadn't had a particularly good deal on B-classes I'd have the Audi still: I don't have all that many regrets in life but getting rid of the Audi is one of them.
I'd be very interested to know if anyone has experience of the DSG gearbox's durability. My next car will be either another Audi or if I can't afford it, an Octavia, probably with DSG.
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Of the three I'd have the TDI 140 Multitronic, having driven all of them.
TDI 140M - goes fine, very smooth and quiet. I know others like the DSG but I'd be suprised to see it in the A4 as its designed for a transverse mounted engine while the A4 is an inline installation. The Multitronic has no more hesitancy away than the DSG (i.e. there is a small amount) and is very economical. It's also rather quick at acceleration because it holds the engine on peak torque as you do it.
TDI170 - Nasty. Just nasty. If you drive hard i.e. like a petrol all the time then you'll be fine. At over 2200rpm the thing is ballistic. Below 1800 rpm though not a lot happens as the turbo is the size of a dustbin. Whereas a TDI140 Manual will pull from 1200rpm or less in 6th, trying to get meaningful acceleration from the 170 at the same speed means 4th or even 3rd. It's just not a relaxing combination to drive, too much lag for my lazy low revs using the low end pull driving style.
1.8TM - It's a very smooth combination, and not exactly slow, but it's nowhere near as punchy as the TDI140. It's relatively thirsty too - the 2.0T FSI is a much better bet for petrol economy, and also the quickest, but then it costs that much more.
If it were me I'd have a multitronic 140 with paddles added. They make all the difference and can really help you when overtaking and make it possible to enjoy backroads almost as much as a manual.
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Interesting comments about the 170bhp engine,who wants to drive a diesel like a petrol? I dismissed this option as it was not available with multironic and I think that 170bhp is too much for a 2 litre diesel to produce reliably for a long time.
I have just taken delivery of a Tdi 140 Avant with multitronic and am delighted with it. True there is some delay starting but then it is "electric" and amazing in sport mode.
My 1st tankful gave 43 MPG on a long run, very similar to my old 406Hdi 110 manual. I am sure the A4 will improve as it loosens up. The car is alsp extremely refined with none of te diesel rattle from the same engine in a Passat, I drove.
I just hope that the gearbox is reliable over the years, as I intend to keep it for a long time. I have always belived that a turbo diesel automatic was the way to go.
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1.8T is getting on in years and I found it rather course.
2.0T is faster, quiter and has a flat torque curve - something you may appreciate if you switch from a diesel.
Agree with the post re too much torque from some VAG 2.0 TDis at c. 2000-2500. I had a Seat like this as a hire car and I literally kept spinning the front wheels.
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Agree with the post re too much torque from some VAG 2.0 TDis at c. 2000-2500. I had a Seat like this as a hire car and I literally kept spinning the front wheels.
You could say the same about many diesels, it simply takes getting used to.
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Thanks to everyone for their really informative replies.
The comments on the 170bhp and others experiences with the 130bhp clutch are particularly interesting.
I shall let you know what I test drive and how I get on ... my gut is to go for the 140TDI multitronic.
Thanks again,
DF
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>> Agree with the post re too much torque from some VAG 2.0 TDis at c. 2000-2500. I had a Seat like this as a hire car and I literally kept spinning the front wheels. You could say the same about many diesels, it simply takes getting used to.
Absolutely, you have to be proportionate with the loud pedal and not just bury it in the carpet. Dont think its possible to have too much torque is it? ;o)
Re: VAG clutches, my Dad has a 52-plate A4 1.9 TDi 130, has done over 70k miles in 3.5 years. He has always had the annoying habit of slipping the clutch to hold the car on an incline at junctions/ traffic lights, instead of applying brakes. He is still on his first clutch, and it would still seem to have plenty of life in it.
Rich.
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My 1st tankful gave 43 MPG on a long run, very similar to my old 406Hdi 110 manual. I am sure the A4 will improve as it loosens up. The car is alsp extremely refined with none of te diesel rattle from the same engine in a Passat, I drove.
Driving them back and forth from Canterbury to Crawley I would usually get 52mpg (56+ on trip computer) unless traffic was bad.
I just hope that the gearbox is reliable over the years, as I intend to keep it for a long time. I have always belived that a turbo diesel automatic was the way to go.
Make sure you get the oil changed at 40k and they'll last. When I was working for a dealer as a driver we regularly brought in cars for service that had done 90k+ on a multitronic with oil changes like clockwork at 40k. Of course we also had a few where the box failed because the driver hadn't gotten the oil done until the 3rd variable service (usually around 54k)
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"I have just taken delivery of a Tdi 140 Avant with multitronic and am delighted with it. True there is some delay starting but then it is "electric" and amazing in sport mode. "
Frogeye, if your car is new then don't despair. These engines take a long time to loosen up - you don't get the best out of them until they've done 10,000 miles. It's the slowish start from rest that you notice most.
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Good news about the multitronics not all exploding at low mileages - I feel a little more comfortable now. But with 40000 miles coming up soon I am seriously debating keeping the car - it will need brake fluid, coolant change, cambelt and multitronic gearbox oil. I'll need a mortgage to pay for that service!
If I chop it in before then I don't suppose I'll get £1000 less for it at trade-in time.
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Oh yes - and no warranty either as it'll be 3 years old. I think it's time to look at some Skoda brochures.
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I think you've got the 2.0 multitronic, Dulwich Estate - how noisy is it?
I've been sounding off in another thread about the monotonous drone made by 4-cylinder diesel automatics like my B-class (as opposed to my previous A4 2.5 TDI which was very refined). But it may just be that the Mercedes is worse than most. There is soundproofing betwen engine and cabin, but none on the inside of the bonnet, which is possibly allowing the engine noise to reverberate.
I had a good test run in an Octavia 2.0 TDI with the DSG gearbox, which was very impressive, and I can't remember being particularly conscious of the noise level. Still hoing that someone will comment on the reliabiltiy and longevity of DSG gearboxes.
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I'm no expert on noise levels but apart from the expected clatter heard outside when cold, it's not noticeably noiser inside than my last 2.0 petrol A4. I sometimes get a surprise when say I get out the car with the engine still running (like to open a gate) and hear it's a diesel otherwise I don't notice a thing.
I too am hoping to hear positive things about the DSG - it might be time for an Octavia Estate then.
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>>it will need brake fluid
~£75 when I had that done on my A3 at Listers in Coventry (great dealer)
>>coolant change
Again not a huge one
>>cambelt
That should be 60k I think, it might even be 80k but when it comes it's painful, not half as bad as it was on some older cars though like the old A6.
>>multitronic gearbox oil
I can't remember offhand how much this costs.
>>I'll need a mortgage to pay for that service!
I'd guess assuming it's that plus a 2nd Variable around £6-700
If I chop it in before then I don't suppose I'll get £1000 less for it at trade-in time.
No idea... two months out of the trade and I'm out of touch!
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I could have sworn that the backroom advice was 40000 miles for a A4 cambelt change??
£700 is a lot, but not £1000 so I'll think about it and get a quote or two nearer the time. Someone told me they have to heat up the oil before they can refill the box - really? It certainly won't be an independent garage job.
PS Why am I nervous about the multitronic? I had a conventional auto box in my R reg A4 and it expired at 3 years 8 months (apparently, the same gearbox as Renault used - no wonder!). The bottom line was around £1600 for a recon one which was never right, so I sold it and bought my first multitronic. I'm on my second one now - I'm a glutton for punishment.
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I could have sworn that the backroom advice was 40000 miles for a A4 cambelt change??
I can't speak for backroom advice, only for the details printed on the service books and sheets. For a 2.0TDI engine that means 60k for Cambelt.
£700 is a lot, but not £1000 so I'll think about it and get a quote or two nearer the time. Someone told me they have to heat up the oil before they can refill the box - really? It certainly won't be an independent garage job.
In order to drain the oil from a multitronic you have to heat the oil to operating temperature and then drain immediately. I would routinely take cars out for a ten mile drive around town to get the oil hot, then straight on a service ramp, legs in the air and oil drained out the bottom. It needs care because the oil is hot but that's about it. Then you hang a can of fresh oil from the raised bonnet and it drains into the gearbox under gravity. Takes just over an hour or so in total for that bit.
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