The Unbreakable Engine Breaks ? Honda Civic Type R Engine Failure
Can you help? I need advice and information.
I have a Honda Civic Type R, 2004 Plate with full service history (last serviced April 2006). On the 28th May on the M54 the engine suffered a major malfunction. Travelling at 70mph I changed down from 5th gear to 4th gear for better acceleration, the engine went bang!!
The main dealer has been in touch with Honda UK and they are saying that the damage is the result of an over rev situation. They are suggesting that I missed a gear, which I STRONGLY deny. I can not prove that I went 5th to 4th and they can not prove otherwise!! Honda will not cover the damage under their 3 year, 90,000 mile warranty. We have had an independent engineer look at the damage and he has concluded that the damage sustained was more than likely caused by an over rev situation; but can not rule out that something else could have contributed to the damage; examples which he has suggested are collet failure or dropping a valve. The damage is so great that no body can say what 100% caused it.
We have visited 2 other Honda garages under the same main dealer control at both of these garages we enquired about purchasing a Honda Civic Type R, asking several pointed questions. Such as can you at 70mph go from 5th gear to 2nd gear? We have received answers such as: ?Yes, no problem. The engine comes of song and you will run out of bottle before you run out of revs?. We have a 23minute tape recording of two sales executives at one of the dealerships answering our questions. We have confronted Honda and the main dealer with this information and they are unwilling to discuss the matter.
Trading Standards are unable to help us as the purchase price of the car was over £5,000 (£14,995). Honda seems to be calling our bluff and forcing us to go to solicitors. This could prove very expensive. Can you help? Any suggestions or information would be welcomed. Honda is suggesting that the replacement cost for this engine is nearly £8,000.
This is just a brief run down of events. We have a lot more information and details upon request.
Please help.
I wait in anticipation of your response.
Regards,
Ryan Guest
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When we had the timing chain on our CR-V (same basic engine) replaced due to streaching and a rattle, the service manager at our dealership said that it was the first time he had ever seen it happen on a CR-V but had seen it happen on several type R's. It may be worth talking to a service manager to see if he/she has come across any problems such as this.
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It might be useful to work out what revs it was pulling at 70 in both gears..lot to be said for double de-clutching !
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Have you got Legal Cover as an extension on your HOME insurance?
If so, they'll take up your case, for you, if they feel a reasonable chance of a success.
VB
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certainly sounds like an overrev ,honda are usually very helpful so they must feel pretty strongly about it to dismiss you.
Best of luck in court it may be a long battle........:)
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So who gave Honda the idea that it was an over rev situation then? ie how did they come to that conclusion? I wonder if the engine management system logs such events?
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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What condition is the gearbox now in?
What about the clutch too?
Have they given you a written conclusion of their findings?
What revs did you take the engine up to before changing gear? What speeds would this be in the gears (approx?).
Is it possible you may have got the wrong gear? Did you happen to notice rev counter when you changed down? If so what revs etc.
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I always thought that the EMS would log the # of times you
hit the rev limiter.
I also thought that Honda Type R's could be driven in 1st gear at 100mph, but maybe that is just my misapprehension!
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Even if they can, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't last long being changed into 1st from 5th at 100mph.
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Did you have the permission of the sales people that you were recording?If anyone recorded me without permission,the situation would soon end up with fisticuffs.
My money says that there is more to the story and Honda have made their decision on more of the facts than we are privy to.
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Adam. 1st to 5th wouldn't be a problem! It is 5th to 1st that destroys things!
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Indeed you did Adam - my aplogies! Note time of my post = up way too early and bored.
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Quite alright. Make sure you get an early night tonight!
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Sorry if this is a dumb question, but I thought rev limiters existed to stop this kind of thing, or is there only so much electronics can do?
I put a Ferrari 355 into 2nd instead of 4th from 5th at Thruxton and it survived. My female instructor winced and said something along the lines of "I said 4th, but 2nd will do" (it was a left hooker and the first time I'd had to change gear with my right hand, and I'm not Michael Schumacher by any stretch of the imagination)
In 1987 a mate of mine put a 5 speed Montego into third instead of fifth at about 90 and it got us home in one piece. We were glad we were wearing seatbelts though as the car didn't half stand on its nose!
I've gone from 5th to 2nd in my IS200 and I knew before I'd let the clutch up what I'd done - mechanical sympathy takes over and you go to the correct gear based on what the revs are doing (i.e. going through the roof/cylinder head).
I really hope the problem gets resolved to your advantage.
Good luck and all the very best,
CV
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Sorry if this is a dumb question, but I thought rev limiters existed to stop this kind of thing, or is there only so much electronics can do?
Rev limiters only work from the throttle. They can't stop the engine overrevving if going straight from a high gear down to a low gear - unless it's a modern autobox, in which case the electronics will prevent too low a gear from being selected until the speed has dropped sufficiently.
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"Rev limiters only work from the throttle. They can't stop the engine overrevving if going straight from a high gear down to a low gear - unless it's a modern autobox, in which case the electronics will prevent too low a gear from being selected until the speed has dropped sufficiently."
Very good point DD. It's the nut behind the steering wheel syndrome again isn't it!
All the best,
CM
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Normally Honda bend over backwards & go well beyond what they legally have to do to help owners out who have problems with a car.
Replacing failed auto gearboxes well outside the warranty period comes to mind.
Ive not heard of Civic Type Rs having a engine problem, There must be a Honda forum you can ask on to see if other Type R owners have had the engine go bang!
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It may be worth trying to test drive one at a different garage and see what speed you can do in second gear. Although 70 sounds a lot for 2nd these do rev quite high. my old 1.4 Rover does over 60 in second before the limiter cuts in so even if it was 1000revs over the red line I cant see it doing too much damage.
Having said that, are you sure it was 70 when you changed gear and not 70 after the engine started to die? 10-15 mph may have made all the difference!
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Reckon a Type-R would do 70 in 2nd, IIRC the redline is 8500, 8.2mph / 1000 would give 70 at 8500, not sure about the ratios though 8 to 9 mph / 1000 is about right.
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dont forget the type r has a close ratio 6 speed box
Gear Type 6 Speed Manual
Final Drive 4.76:1
1st Gear Ratio 3.27:1
2nd Gear Ratio 2.13:1
3rd Gear Ratio 1.52:1
4th Gear Ratio 1.15:1
5th Gear Ratio 0.92:1
6th Gear Ratio 0.74:1
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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I think I petrol heads should take an important lesson from this thread: buy a diesel..!
It's no good having a car with all it's power squashed at the top end when you cannot use it (or if you try to use it you risk destroying the engine).
BTW I once put a car in reverse at 50mph, it did not sound too healthy but I often wondered what would have happened if I had released the clutch.
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BTW I once put a car in reverse at 50mph, it did not sound too healthy but I often wondered what would have happened if I had released the clutch.
A traffic policeman I know was investigating a Jag XJ which overturned (fatal). The biggest clue was a following car which saw the reversing lights come on followed by lots of tyre smoke.
They thought the driver moved the car from drive to reverse accidently. They found out the driver had a habit of pressing the button on the autoshift handle even when it wasn't needed.
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Ryan
Are they really saying that you "missed" a gear? If so; the rev limiter would have cut in. If you accidentally got second instead of fourth and thus forced an over-speed, the ECU should have logged a code for "rev limit exceeded."
Did it?
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You do not really mention what damage was done. You did mention dropping a valve but unless that smashed a piston and a rod came through the side then why is the engine so badly damaged. I don't think we have the whole story. Regards Peter
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When I had a go of a Type R I took it to 115mph in 3rd gear, just about hitting the red line. This engine is designed to be revved, no way would 70 mph in 4th overrev it.
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It's abour balance of probabilities, the engineer thinks it was probably overrevved, the manufacturer thinks you overrevved it and the evidence points to it having been overrevved.
Are you looking for evidence of other things that could lead to catastrophic engine failure ? In any event, you will have to do more than simply make things smell a bit - you will have to prove on the balance of probabilities that this new event, not overrevving, caused the failure.
I have to say, in the absence of other evidence (and maybe tainted by my experiences of how I see many TypeRs driven), I have to think the engineer's right, but that's because it's what it looks like. You need to raise something else tangible.
I should also suggest that, as I am sure you are not, going loco at Honda UK will get you less than nowhere - any percentage of goodwill you could get from them will go out of the window if you put toys out of pram, so no matter how cathartic it may be, resist the urge.
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And BTW, my old 1.4 Civic 3 door would do an indicated 68 in second, and did so more than once a week for 5 years and 70,000 miles.
It also did 92 in third.
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Speaking as an owner of a facelift (04) CTR, it does sound very much as if you accidentally got 2nd rather than 4th on changing down. I've done it myself once, very briefly, at a similar road speed and consider myself very fortunate not to have done any damage.
Given the brutal engine braking and high pitched scream that I know this generates, I find it impossible to believe that you wouldn't know all about it if you had got 2nd.
The only possibility I can think of is that the ECU logged an engine overspeed on another occasion; are you the first owner?
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Incidentally, I'm afraid the fact that some idiot car salesman tells you that the engine is just "coming on song" doing 70mph in 2nd has absolutely no bearing on Honda's liability in this case.
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"Travelling at 70mph I changed down from 5th gear to 4th gear for better acceleration, the engine went bang!! "
I doubt any court claim will succeed if the above is typical of the evidence...
Trying to break the legal speed limit sir?
etc etc..
madf
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I've little doubt that you could run a Type-R engine up to 70mph in second gear, never mind 4th. This is different to changing DOWN into second gear though. If you drop from 5th to 2nd and lift the clutch abruptly then the load on the engine will be very high indeed. Think of the inertia load of the cams on the cambelt etc (Type R has belt cam IIRC?). Given what your independent engineer has said then I think you're on weak group. Collet failure would be extremely unlikely.
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I would think Honda has a print out of the ECU showing excess revs ,speeds etc,before you go to court I would check this out because Honda armed with this info have you on a hiding to nothing and as it appears you were exceeding the speed limit at the time its a double whammy.
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....and as it appears you were exceeding the speed limit at the time its a double whammy.
Where does it say he was on a UK public road?
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>> ....and as it appears you were >> exceeding the speed limit at the time its a double whammy. Where does it say he was on a UK public road?
He says M54.
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While this points towards excess revs causing the damage I would have thought that it is up to Honda to prove this, be it in a court of law or simply as a justification for rejecting a warranty claim.
After all the car is warrantied by Honda against mechanical failure, as such if they decide to reject a warranty claim that clearly relates to mechanical failure then surely the onus is on them to prove that it was maltreatment that led to the failure rather than for the driver to prove that it was not?
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It's a fair cop! I should learn to read properly!
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And where is our OP?
I smell a rat.
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Espada III - well if you have a family and need a Lamborghini, what else do you drive?
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And where is our OP? I smell a rat.
May be though he only posted last night, perhaps he will be back tonight.
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As for Honda and courts of law, it's balance of probabilities, not reasonable doubt, they have an independent engineer's report to say it's probably overrevved and the best rebuttal of that is that he can't be 100% - he does not have to be. Case dismissed and costs against a vexatious plaintiff in my book [showing my age now by no doubt getting terminology wrong].
You should have to show on balance of probabilities it was something else that caused it which was covered by the warranty - you need the download from the ECU - I still think it's going to show it was buzzed and it was doing a lot more than 70mph at the time.
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Is that really relevant though? Honda couldn't possibly defend that their cars are built never to go over 70mph.
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"Is that really relevant though? Honda couldn't possibly defend that their cars are built never to go over 70mph."
If plaintiff is showed to be telling porkies on one item of evidence, court is going to judge everything else he says with GREAT suspicion..
"Now mR so and so" you are complaining that doing 5,000rpm in x gear - which equates to 90mph - on a motorway - you changed DOWN for better accleration...
Imagine the response. Of course it has no direct bearing on the case but destroys his credibility as a Truthfull witness.
I may of course be totally unfair and he was doing only 70mph and only wanted to accelerate to 90mph:-))
madf
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Not sure that the 70mph point is relevant, afterall he is presumably only being honest, he could have said "I was doing 50 and changed down to 3rd", who would know?
The fact is that the engine should not have failed IF the driver changed into 4th at 70.
The question is whether the actions of the driver caused damaged that lead to the failure, i.e. whether the truth is different that his version of the story. However, as I have said above, it might have been in his interest to be economical with the truth so as to not be seen as attempting to speed, the fact that he has not avoided the speeding issue in my mind lends credibilty to his story.
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Speeding has nothing to do with it. Honda specify the car as exceeding the speed limit so that is in no way relevant to the argument.
Only the speed/gear is of interest here.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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Incidentally, I'm afraid the fact that some idiot car salesman tells you that the engine is just "coming on song" doing 70mph in 2nd has absolutely no bearing on Honda's liability in this case.
Best response to this type of salesman is to request an immediate test drive to demonstrate the theory..!
Then after writing off the engine on the test drive tell him you like it, but "have you got one in green..?"
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