I've always been a Michelin man. Until now, anyway. I am, however, thinking of getting Toyo tyres for my Ford Ka.
They came with Kleber Viaxer (165/65R13) as oem. When the front tyres needed replacing, I put on Michelin Energy, without giving the matter much thought.
However, I've always felt that the braking on the Ka was pretty poor, and I reckoned that one way I might improve the braking was to put on tyres which had better braking. I looked at the Auto Express tyre test 2005 (see their website) and Toyo seemed to come top for braking. (3rd for wet braking, 4th for dry braking).
So - should I go for it and put on Toyos this time?
Edited by Pugugly {P} on 14/11/2007 at 22:50
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No you should not. You know perfectly well Michelin are much better than Toyo.
Pirelli, Goodyear, Continental are better as well.
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Have toyos on my car, never had a problem with them and substantially cheaper than other brands. Got mine for 50 quid a corner fitted.
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Tyro here is a good tyre for highland roads in all seasons
www.tirefactory.net/NRW.htm ,I fitted a full set to the old volvo the last time and am very happy with them and would say they have better grip than most and they are quite good price wise at less than £40 fitted for 195/60x15
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After reading so many good reports on them I standardised our cars on Toyos some years ago helped by having a Toyo agent locally. Havent been able to fault them for all conditions. Braking good, very quiet and good wear rate.
Also well priced.
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The people criticising Toyo need to remember they make more than just one tyre.
Sure, the regular Roadpro's are dire, but the Toyo Proxes T1-S and T1-R range are actually very well performing tyres.
And the Michelen Energy are, infact, very poor compared to the competition - something which the Autocar tyre test highlights.
Personally I think the best mid-range non performance tyres are the Goodyear Hydragrip for their exceptional wet performance becuase lets face it, if you are ever going to approach the limits of your car in breaking etc in a regular car its more likely to be in the wet.
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Thanks for all answers so far. Keep them coming!
I have a subsidiary question. The AutoExpress tyre test looks at Toyo Proxes, whereas a Ka would use Toyo 330s. Similarly, tyre tests tend to look at Bridgestone Turanzas, whereas a Ka would use Bridgestone B330s.
Does this mean that the AutoExpress test (and for that matter the latest ADAC test - which, btw, doesn't even include Michelin Energy, let alone a Toyo tyre!) are no use to me - or would I expect Toyo Proxes to have the same characteristics of Toyo 330s)
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It's of no use to you, there is a world of difference between Toyo Proxes and Toyo 330's.
It's like reading a review of the SL55 AMG, finding its amazing, and using that opinion to buy an A150 Classic.
I read last years Autocar report, I'm sure its on their website - both Toyo and Michelen Energy came out poorly.
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Agree with comment about each tyre manufacturer making more than 1 tyre type.
Comparing michelin to toyo without specifying tyre type could be like comparing a corsa 1.2 to a mondeo 2.0; totally different!
Also remember that Ka's have a reputation for poor braking; cured I have found fby putting in better quality pads like Delphi/mintex or Ferodo. I do not rate Fords own pads in the Ka. See honestjohn comments about brakes too on ka's; they even suggest ebc brakes.
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I have found fby putting in better quality pads like Delphi/mintex or Ferodo. I do not rate Fords own pads in the Ka. See honestjohn comments about brakes too on ka's; they even suggest ebc brakes.
Thanks - that's very helpful. I had missed that comment ("Replacing standard front pads with uprated aftermarket items, such as EBC pads greatly improves feel, stopping distances and most importantly reduces brake fade under heavy braking") in the CBCB - though I had spotted the one that said "Either replace front pads at 18,000 - 20,000 miles or expect to have to replace discs every 25,000 miles."
Since I've done 17,500 miles, it looks like I should think pretty seriously about getting EBC "upgrade quality" pads on both front wheels. (I notice they cost twice as much as EBC "original quality" pads - so I guess they must be significantly better.)
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Do Goodridge do car brake pads? I have them on my mountain bike and they make a world of difference over the stock pads.
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"Michelin or Toyo?"
Neither. As mentioned above, read some auto tyre tests.
Also beware of assuming that a 185/60/14 test will mean that a tyre of 205/55/16 will have the same results. It won't.
The design and testing required to qualify each tyre size is prohibitive. Within a size range, say, 185 - 205, a wider tyre is created by stretching the profile without necessarily redesigning from scratch.
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No Goodridge purely a hose manufacturer AFAIK.
Just fitted EBC Greens to the Porsche, bit early to say as still bedding in but seem much better, main reason for fitting is to stop the black muck on the alloys!
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I read last years Autocar report, I'm sure its on their website
Can't find it - if anyone can tell me where it is, (or if anyone has a copy lying around, and can tell me the results) - I'd be grateful.
(ADAC, Which, and AutoExpress I have seen.)
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You know perfectly well Michelin are much better than Toyo. Pirelli, Goodyear, Continental are better as well.
Does he? How? Is it purely because they're more famous and more expensive? I think you might be in danger of believing that something is true just because 'everyone knows it'.
For what it's worth, I have Toyo T1-R's on my Fiat Coupe, and I'll be replacing them with the same when they're worn out. Phenomenal grip in wet or dry.
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Swapped Dunlops for Toyo Proxes on my A2 - Toyo was a far superior tyre, much less road noise and better in the wet. Toyos were £70 a corner, Michelin quoted at £109!
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Does he? How?
The truth of the matter is that I don't know very much - and I'm beginning to think that no-one else does either.
Reading tyre tests is a good idea - but how many tests do you see for 165/65 R13 tyres? ADAC very helpfully do two summer tyre tests - one for 'ordinary' tyres, one for performance tyres. The 'ordinary' tyre tests (which are the ones of relevance to me) for the last three years are for 185/60 R14, 165/70 R14, and 175/65 R14 - which one would thought would not be very different from 165/65 R13. AutoExpress, similarly tested 'ordinary' rather than performance tyres - 185/60 R14.
However - while Michelin Energy are available in both 185/60R14 and 165/65R13, Bridgestone and Toyo do different 'ordinary' tyres for these two sizes.
Result: It seems I don't really have any objective comparative tests to go on - just the opinions of different people
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Had Toyos on both heavily laden and fast driven van and also volvo 850 glt similarly driven. Wears well and sticks like whatsit to a blanket. Highly recommended.
vbr...................................md
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Check out tyretest.com . Not tests as such, but drivers' opinions over thousands of miles of motoring and loads of tyres.
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You say the Ka has poor braking but why do you think it is due to the tyre. Do you mean you can lock it up but the car still does not stop. I'd be going after different brake pads not different tyres. Regards Peter
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You say the Ka has poor braking but why do you think it is due to the tyre.
I don't think the tyre is the real problem. As you say, pads are probably a bigger part of it. However, I do reckon that choice of tyre must make some difference.
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I use Conti Eco contacts on my Ka even though i looked up on black circles & they're the most expensive of them all, but im very impresed with them despite the wear rate is greater as i've had them fitted on the fronts about a year ago now & the tread is down to 5 mm already despite i regulary check my pressures.
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Its not what you drive, its how you drive it! :-)
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In my own experience with tyres I have found that you generally get what you pay for(which varies massively from supplier to supplier).I have had problems in the past with cheap tyres, including wearing out of round and rapid wear rates.Obviously the tyres you choose should suit the type and place where you drive ie.hacking along muddy country lanes,or short urban commuting or high mileage motorway(like I do).Tyres are about compromises,as a good tyre in the dry will often be poorer comparitively in the wet and vice versa.I tend to use Bridgestone,Michelin,Vredestein,Uniroyal or Continental,as for me good wear rate takes a higher priority than out and out grip.
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Thanks everybody. A lot of very helpful posts there.
I have ordered new brake pads - EBC, as recommended.
I decided against Toyo. I had a look at tyretest.com as recommended by John24, and discovered that while Toyo Proxes got good reports, Toyo 330s did not.
I took up defender's suggestion of an all year round tyre, but discovered that there are very few available in 165/65R13 and none scored particularly well on tyretest.com. And of course that is a problem. If one is buying 165/65R13s, there are a lot of good tyres that are not available.
So - in the end it came down to Michelin Energy again, or Continental EcoContact. I decided for Continental because
1) they tend to be marginally cheaper than Michelin
2) they did as well as Michelin in the Which? tests
3) they did a lot better than Michelin in the latest
Autoexpress test
4) they did marginally better than Michelin in the 2004 ADAC test
5) they seem to more of wet weather tyre than Michelin, which fits with the weather around here these days :-(
6) Frazer says so ;-)
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6) Frazer says so ;-)
That's ok Tyro, anytime ;-)
They're very grippy round corners compared to the budget rubber that was already fitted when i perchased my ka :-)
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Its not what you drive, its how you drive it! :-)
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i didnt realise you lived off poor roads tyro (i now know you do )if i had known i would have suggested anything but michelins.
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Tyro, would you mind posting the link to the Auto Express 2005 Tyre Test, cause I can't seem to find it and will be looking for new tyres myself soon?
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I have recently fitted Michelin Pilot Primacy tyres to my Mazda 6. They seem to be quieter than the original tyres (Bridgestone I think) and ride more comfortably, so I'm quite pleased. However, they have developed patches of brown dicolouration around the side walls. What's all that about?
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I have ordered new brake pads - EBC, as recommended.
Couple of years back I enquired with my insurers whether fitting Greenstuff pads would make a difference to the premium. £7pa. Go figure.
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Why they are just replacement pads, not a modification & approved to Spec 90 europe wide? Just fitted them all round to the 944. Hurrah no more filthy brake dust all over the wheels!
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Were the EBC Greenstuff pads any good? I'd be interested to know. I tried some on a Punto and was not impressed. Continental Eco3 tyres (size 165/65X14) on the same car have done well though.
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Rab355
If that question was directed to me - and I'm pretty sure that my pads are greenstuffs, then I felt that they really helped. Not everyone agreed with me, but I am convinced enough that I will be getting them next time.
There is some discussion here: www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=45062
It may be that they make a difference on the Ka because oem pads were so bad, but make little difference to vehicles which have better oem pads.
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For the past several years I have always bought Toyo because I have two local stockists..close to where I live and work.
18 months ago I fitted Roadpro R610s to my Legacy estate(now sold). Cost was £170 for 4,(195x60R15 88H) fitted and balanced.
I thought they were excellent value for money, giving more than adequate grip and a good wear rate.To my way of thinking, by paying a bit less than ''other brands''I can afford to change them before they get anywhere near the minimum tread level.
My current VW transporter has recently been shod with Toyo HO8s (195/70R15C)at a cost of £55 per corner fitted & balanced.They are perfect for the job.
I live near Settle, NYorks so performance in the wet is important!
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Post script
Well, I did decide on Continentals. But, not wanting to be difficult, I told the fellow in the garage that if it was easier for him to get Michelins, then that would be OK. And when my car came back, Michelins it was.
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Having run my Fiat Coupe on Pirellis for the last six years and recently gone over to Toyo Proxy TI-R,I must say i am amazed and delighted with their performance in the wet or in the dry.
Believe me,tyres really get tested on Anglesey B roads.
At £50 a corner(which is what I paid)they must be worth a try.
Too early yet to have an idea about wear rate.
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Post post script
Needed new tyres again. This time I told the gent in the garage that I wanted Continentals. So now that is what I have on the back wheels.
(Still Michelins in the front, though)
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>>Swapped Dunlops for Toyo Proxes on my A2 - Toyo was a far superior tyre, much less road noise and better in the wet.
Exactly my experience on my (previous) Octavia vRS. I've found Michelin in general quite expensive although very hard wearing but a harder ride and noisy (never run Premacys) and the same with Bridgestone. I try to buy my tyres based on wet weather grip and braking and then noise as IMO in the dry most decent tyres perform more than adequately enough for my needs even with "spirited" driving.
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Michelins Energy's were replaced by Kuhmo's on my old Laguna .... wear better, ride better, economy better oh and they were £35.00 per corner cheaper !!
We use Toyo's on 12 Car Transporters at work, no problems. Once told by a Michelin rep this gem
"No two tyres are the same" he went to explain that whilst a Michelin might suit one car it won't suit another automatically therefore ask Ford KA owners not me a Volvo owner.
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My approach to replacing tyres is to see what Mytyres.com have to offer in the size needed. I then ignore the Chinese rubbish at the cheap end of the market, they have silly names like Happy Driver and Golden Sunrise (not real examples). I also ignore the top priced brands. I look at the links to tyretest.com for the mid range tyres and choose the best rated.
I buy on-line from Mytyres then get them fitted locally and save a fortune.
Example, my daughter needed to replace a nearly new Continental due to a puncture near the sidewall. Mytyres+local fitting, £69.49. The tyre fitters who are not slow, £119. That's a big difference.
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reckoned that one way I might improve the braking was to put on tyres which had better braking.
I've so rarely got near the limit of adhesion of tyres when braking ~ perhaps twice in 40 years ~ that I've never really thought about whether one tyre was better than another in this respect. If and when it becomes a problem I'll take a serious look at my driving/braking style.
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L\'escargot.
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In the last 25 years, I've been responsible for two collisions. In both cases, the car skidded before the collision. In both cases, the tyres were Michelins. Michelins do seem to be very hard wearing, but they have little grip in the dry and less in the wet. Needless to say, I never buy them now.
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That's a bit like saying "I've only had 2 accidents and both times I was driving a Ford. I'll never buy a Ford again." isn't it? Not entirely rational IMO.
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>>I've been responsible for two collisions.
Isnt the lesson that you should give up driving? Or at least have more training?
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Just a note of caution on the EBC brake pads - fit the normal road pads, not the "Green Stuff". The latter will wear your discs down faster.
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