If a driver accumulates 6 or more points within 2 years of taking the test, they have to start again from the beginning. (ie, theory and practical again).
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Apols, yes, I knew that, but forgot.
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No passengers at all? Some of you are being quite ridiculous. That would mean we'd have been unable to use my car on the numerous family trips we've taken with the obviously dangerous (According to some) combination of me, a young driver, my parents and my sister (Until recently I had the only family sized car - parents had a bike and a coupe).
I often carry passengers and it makes no difference to my driving style.
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No passengers at all for a year. Yes,yes,yes, thats a good idea. For a newly passed young driver I think they can be a distraction and packed in a small old car (because as said these are what the kids are driving) make it handle far worse.
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So they've got to drive totally alone for a whole year after passing - thats handy, they'll miss out on various tips etc from their parents if they are not able to drive a car with their parents in.
Honestly some of these suggestions are utterly ridiculous, and they sound like they are being suggested by over 50's who've forgotton what being young is like.
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I also disagree with passenger limits. You wonder why we have gridlock all the time when a group of 4/5 similarly aged friends all have to travel on their own, in their own cars, when they could all have climbed into one?
As I mentioned before, car age/size should have nothing to do with it. Its all down to the driver, and I can imagine that a huge majority of accidents are down to human error. It all points to 2 things. Poor training and attitude, the latter being very difficult to deal with. Let?s face it, all of these ideas that 'old' cars are utterly unsuitable and seemingly outright dangerous is a bit extreme. They are no different in normal driving situations than these newer ones your suggesting they should drive. Its only when things get very messy, that ABS and traction control etc comes into play, and even then, these aren?t guaranteed to save you. If however, these drivers had been trained correctly, they would know the hazards and adapt their driving accordingly, not getting into these messy situations in the first place.
This partly stems from driving schools insisting on teaching candidates to pass the test, not to drive.
Reading through this thread has been quite enlightening and some good ideas are put forward. Although it also suggests that its a miracle I?m still alive. A 17 year old, in a ?93 polo, 1 litre with a 4 speed box, taking a car full of friends to the cinema every week or taking the family to Scotland in a blizzard. Seems like I?ve been living the past two years on the edge!
Probably just cursed myself now ;-)
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Most acidents round my way are caused by excessive speed when cornering, exacebated by hard brakeing whilst in the corner.
i cannot understand the floor it for the strait (upto or over the speed limit) slam the brakes on for the bend philosofy. For starters this uses more fuel apart from causeing the riple breaking phenomon in folowing cars and or skids/ loss of control (the driver).
I always try to avoid breaking in all drving situations by anticipation and use of the gearbox /engine ie if bend coming up/ red light by takeing foot off gas/Change down a gear. Why is this method of driving not encouraged. I find it ironic that using the method mentioned I can usually drive most bends (very tight) at a comfortable 40mph (dependent on conditions) (far faster than the floor it slam the breaks on mob.
Paul
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The solution is so obvious. Castration !
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The solution is so obvious. Castration !
Ouch!!. But the main problem is indeed "boys will be boys".
But perhaps with alcohol as too often a contributor.
A much lower drink drive limit for under 25's would be atart.
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But you could argue a youngster is more perceptive after drinking.
I mean, my Mum could have two glasses of wine and be gone. I go out all night and drink pints with a few scotches to round the evening off and still have my faculties.
Nothing to do with age. Lower the limit for all or don't lower it at all.
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Adam
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Sometimes though Gard, driving can be fun.
I know I know - crazy idea.
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Adam
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At least three people have mentioned about people being taught to pass their test rather than how to drive.
Can someone please explain how that is possible, because in nearly twenty years in the business I could never mange one without the other.
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Well, as you may have read above, not being taken out in the dark is a good one. Not the first time I?ve heard that.
Some instructors don't really go very in-depth with the hazards of simple things like rain.
Also, the mix of road/traffic/weather (granted, the latter is hard to do) can be somewhat limited. Students are taken to the nearest town where tests are undertaken and continuously driven around permutations of test routes.
Not forgetting that the UK test doesn't include motorways.
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The motorway thing is stupid but as regards to everything else, my instructor took me everywhere. In fact, most of my lessons were in the dark after I'd got back from school. We went in the rain, and even a bit of ice!
I'd have no qualms about recommending J.M.S. Atkinson to anyone whatsoever.
That's J.M.S. Atkinson. You'll pass your test no problem with him.
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Adam
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We can all name a good one, but you'll be surprised at how many naff ones are about.
I too, think its about time motorways were included, but not after good acquaintance with all the other roads first!
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I still have fun BUT i do not need to slam on the breaks entering every corner. Nor do I rigidly stick to the speed limits or another of my pet hates drive very slowly speeding up if anyone tries to overtake. I drive at speeds apropriate for the road conditions eg country roads v bendy average speed of 45-50 busy motorway 60-80 deserted motorway 80- 100 or maybe the speed limiter(autoban!) however I do not drive in a fashion were by my jugment of the road is so poor that I constantly rely on the breaks to haul me out of every situation.
Overreliance on the breaks is proably responsible for a lot of the cars that lose control on snow and ice.
Paul
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Not so much over reliance but thinking they will stop you as normal in the ice, coupled with not knowing how to control a skid is a bad mix.
That being said, older people crash in ice. Come to think of it, I don't know anyone my age who has but 3 older people who have.
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Adam
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Why not have a DVLA or inshurance company backed scheme were by those drivers who have undegone skidpan training get lower inshurance. I found my skid pan training invauble - the best day coures Ive ever done.
paul
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As I've said before, train youngsters to do a controlled skid and that is exactly what you will see them doing. People who think you can teach teenagers in a way that will reduce their desire to show off, drive very fast and take risks that would horrify us older types have forgotten what it was like to be young.
About as effective as Tony Blair's "Hey, kids, drugs aren't cool".
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when I was a driving tot.
I learned to do rear wheel drifts.....
and bigger rear wheel drifts.....
and more lurid rear wheel drifts.........
Toms right.
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It is amazing how much fun you can have in a rear wheel drive car .....and an abandoned industrial estate.....just when your tyres are due for replacement.......
......so I'm told.
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Adam
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I can imagine that a huge majority of accidents are down to human error.
IMO there are very, very few "accidents" on the road - a
vanishingly small amount, in fact.
It all points to 2 things. Poor training and attitude, the latter being very difficult to deal with.
The training is fine. Bear in mind, please, that the original
question was "How do we protect young drivers?".
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R-e-a-d the reply, concentrate on "except".
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Tom: You're a driving instructor right?
It really is the trianing that is the problem.
I fully accept that kids WILL be kids, but when they get into dodgy situations (which they still will), if they have had experience of them, they may be able to avert a crisis due to that knowledge.
Teaching controlled skids does sound like a silly idea, i agree with you there.
The issues are trying to give kids experience of driving in the dark, in bad weather conditions and on NSL multi-lane roads (not necessarily motorways though).
I fully understand also that if a kid you teach starts and finishs learning during the summer months (March til June like i did for example) and has their lessons after school each week, they may avoid having to drive in the dark or in bad weather completely. However i don't think that you would argue with me that ideally, a lesson or two in the late evening in the rain would do your students the world of good once they get out on their own.
The only way i can think of to implement this would be to include a requirement in the test to use a dual-carriageway (therefore it would have to be taught to pupils), or perhaps having a compulsory 1 year between receiving your provisional license and being permitted to take a test, in order to give pupils the opportunity to drive in all seasons.
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Dual carriageways are part of the test.
What would happen if you made a rule that you had to have a one year gap between getting your provisional and taking a test is that people would wait till they had held the licence for nine months and then start ringing round for driving lessons.
The provision to learn at night, in all weathers and on all types of roads is already there, and indeed to take further training after your test.
If you are prepared to pay. Few are.
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The test is now more stringent than it's ever been isn't it?
There was talk on here some time back about re-testing for all every 3 or 5 years. Maybe that's a way forward? After all, bad driving isn't confined solely to youngsters.
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"What would happen if you made a rule that you had to have a one year gap between getting your provisional and taking a test is that people would wait till they had held the licence for nine months and then start ringing round for driving lessons."
I know i wouldn't. I would still have started learning straight away, but probably spaced out my official lessons more/had less, and driven with my dad teaching me for a much longer time.
Perhaps some others wouldn't or couldn't be able to do the same (couldn't where learning with parents wasn't possible), but i suspect a lot of car 'enthusiasts' - a number of whom make up the more reckless young drivers - would do just as i would have.
Glad to hear that dual carriageways are part of the test. Unfortunately one of the largest driving teaching companies in the UK doesn't consider it important enough to teach it to my brother!
Re-testing is a great idea, but the result would be the collapse of the public transport system under the huge influx of people being failed!
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The problem is that most of these suggestions are either useless or just plain terrible!
A lower drink drive limit for those under the age of 25? Unless I'm mistaken it's actually older drivers who have the biggest drink drive problem, they are far more likely to commit the offence than young drivers, perhaps a reduced limit for those over 25 would be a good idea?
I passed my test in the summer 2 months after my 17th, after 10 hours of professional tuition and driving with my dad in my own car. I've had 3 accidents, which were all non-fault when I have been hit from behind, and one near miss that was entirely my fault and was down to lack of expereience (abject panic when caught at a junction with an ambulance behind me trying to make progress and I nearly pulled into the side of an oncoming vehicle) Before anyone questions how I got hit 3 times, one was in a stop start queue, one I was sat stopped at a red light and one was at roundabout. Now funnily enough it was older drivers who hit me, one of them simply because he was travelling far too fast in the wet and the rest weren't watching.
Young people will be young no matter how many driver training courses they go on, just accept that some of them are going to get killed, those that choose a careful attitude (and it is a choice that can be made) will be less likely to kill themselves.
The main thing that could possibly help is better levels of vehicle safety and handling, as in my earlier example, if that girl had been driving a decent car the situation wouldn't have been as serious as it was. Her inexperience got her into the situation, and ABS would have helped her to get out of it. Except it didn't, mine did.
Then there's the factors of overcrowding, small cars with 5 people in don't drive very well, if people could afford to drive bigger better cars this would pose less of a problem. I was most suprised when, with 5 passengers and no luggage, I once had my 3 series mudflaps ground going around a tight corner, god knows how the usual small car would have dealt with it, probably rolled over or something.
Even then, better vheicles will only help those who take a good attitude to driving, and that is entirely what it comes down to.
Oh, I still think that new drivers should be forced to watch a gruesome and horrific slide show of the aftermath of some accidents involving careless or stupid driving.
Blue
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RE: The big/small powerful/underpowered car debate
I was much safer on the road once i had my 306/Escort than i was in my mum's 1.0 Fiesta.
Firstly, although they were all old cars, the larger ones physical size and weight would have protected me more in the event of an accident.
In addition, their higher power output helps on a number of levels.
Dodgy motorway situations are often best accelerated out of - something the Fiesta just couldn't do.
The larger cars were less adversely affected by the number of passengers - an old Fiesta with 5 up isn't exactly nippy or agile.
In the Fiesta, momentum was everything. The faster you went round a corner, the less speed you needed to put back on to get back to 'cruise' speed. The result being that the Fiesta was always far closer to it's grip limit in corners than the larger cars, which had the capacity to slow down to a more appropriate speed, and then speed up again once clear of the corner/hazard.
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Hawesy - Agreed totally, I had one too and wasn't keen, the move to my Fiesta Ghia 16V was a revelation and then things improved again with my MK6 one.
Blue
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I was about to propose that all young people must progress gradually, from bicycle to motorcycle to car, with at least a year between steps, and attending training courses for each. Then I remembered how totally stupid I was both on bicycle and motorcycle. It's not that I was crazy, or a speed merchant, and I had nobody to impress, but that I was so thoughtless in my inexperience. There was no tuition available to me to teach me how to go about things, and much more importantly, to make me do things correctly. I am really luck to be alive. But, after a few falls off a motorcycle at up to 40 mph I am a more cautious driver.
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