Just to paint the picture. In order to see past the trees on the edge of the pavement you have to have your head past them so your bonnet is half way across the carriageway. You can't see anything before the trees because of a house/box hedge.
The police on site said that it wouldn't go any further as it was clearly an accident (whatever that means!) and wasn't really a problem of due care and attention (but I suppose that comes down to interpretation).
Biker was a lady (of sorts) on a small Japanese thing - Yamaha I think - one of the small ones (def under 500cc) and not a crotch rocket. She had no light on and I think (as I wasn't there) that she was not riding near the centre of the road. She hit the front wheel of our car and rolled onto the bonnet.
Not making excuses as I admit SWMBO was in the wrong, but in a 30, shouldn't a biker be able to see a car pulling out and make the necessary precautions to avoid? As I have never riden a motorbike I wouldn't know, but from riding a push bike (which I know is different) I always expect cars to pull out so am prepared to stop.
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I was taught to ride just to the right of the middle of the road, in the middle is too slippery sometimes as it does not get friction from car tyres and so accumulates a coating that affects grip.
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i cannot believe the crassness of your comment, "shouldnt a biker be able to see a car pulling out and make precautions to avoid", words fail me they really do
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Seems reasonable, depending on the level of carelessness, injury etc. May make her think a bit about the other three she has. As someone says may be worth investing in a suitable laser/radar/scamera locator.
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If I see a car waiting at a junction I have in my mind 'what if they pull out' and I'm in a car. Sometimes the answer is 'crash into them' but you can find ways out of a possible impending impact if you think in advance.
There is a phenomenon called the looming effect where if a vehicle, particularly a bike, approaches you from a certain angle you just don't see it until it is nearly on you. If the road was at that angle, the view was obstructed then it would have been very tricky to pull out safely. Even creeping and peeping could have still been dangerous.
I'd probably be contacting the council/highways agency to see if they can put one of those mirrors up so cars pulling out can see if there is something coming. Ditto those on the road would be able to see if there is a vehicle waiting to pull out and move out to the crown of the road so they would be seen earlier. If your view is totally obstructed then there is no foolproof way of pulling into the road unless you can find someone to stand in the road and stop the traffic.
teabelly
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Can I ask why any motorcyclist would ever be so stupid as to drive without lights on? It does not cost anything, as far as I am aware the Safety bodies recommend it, so why not? If they usually do, but didn't this time, does this not hint at the motorcyclist not fully concentrating either?
If I was a motorcyclist and knowing that I would always come off second best, I would make sure I always had lights on and hi-vis clothing.
IMHO, by not doing this, they are as negligent as someone driving without a seatbelt on
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I think motorcyclists are well advised to use headlights all the time, but so many of them seem to use full beam which is not very considerate. I don't mind seeing them but I don't want to be dazzled by them!
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There's some discussion about the effect here, following on from an article about it in bike magazine:
www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1693
teabelly
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i cannot believe the crassness of your comment, "shouldnt a biker be able to see a car pulling out and make precautions to avoid", words fail me they really do >>
Agree absolutely, 100% !!!
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All:
Watch your language, don't let this get personal.
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3-9 points is the range for a due care and attention. So I would say you got a middle result.
As for bikers, a large number are irresponsible and drive far too fast with no regard for other road users. It also makes me laugh when they say they don't care about blinding people with their full beams because their safety is more important than a few irritated drivers. And all that as they pass you on the inside at twice the speed limit.
Anyway, sounds like the lady on the japanese hairdryer probably wasn't one of those. Nobody hurt, wife needs to pay a bit more attention (i.e. due care and attention) for a couple of years. Could have been worse.
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Bit late to this and you can probably guess what my response will be:
You live in a tree lined street you and your wife are fully aware of all the risks and yet your wife still pulls straight out in to the street. Luckily the biker was going slow enough that she was not maimed for life but as she had not done absolutely everything in her power to help you wife avoid potentially maiming her she must be culpable.
Your wife should have been instantly banned and forced to re-take her test with special emphasis on observation.
Unfortunately my friend was not so lucky after a myopic 75 year old woman pulled out on him, he lost his foot.
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Unfortunately my friend was not so lucky after a myopic 75 year old woman pulled out on him, he lost his foot.
Unfortunately my friend was not so lucky when a lunatic on a motorbike came screaming around a corner and mowed her down as she crossed the road. She spent years in a coma and eventually died.
It works both ways you see.
From what I can tell of the story SWMBO was just poking the nose of her car out of the junction in order to see what was coming when she was hit. If that's the case it's the design of the road that's at fault. Perhaps some of the self-righteous bikers here would like to suggest she should have got out of the car and peered around the corner on foot before proceeding.
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Anyway, sounds like the lady on the japanese hairdryer probably wasn't one of those.
So why the rant??
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Auxie, I think that you haven't really thought my point through. All I was saying was as my wife creapt out to see past the trees (rather than pull oput and go), I would have thought that for personal safety and self preservation the biker might have been able to slow down and stop. She actually said to my wife that she was going above the speed limit but that is hearsay.
Anyway, don't want to continue this thread any more as I have just seen the result of a biker being killed at a junction round the corner. Obviously someone jumped a red light and my guess would be that it was the car.
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Not making excuses as I admit SWMBO was in the wrong, but in a 30, shouldn't a biker be able to see a car pulling out and make the necessary precautions to avoid?
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From the description of the junction thus far, I'm guessing that the 'give way' was to your wife and not to the biker. Since it is your wife who has to adhere to the 'give way' the onus is on her to check and proceed only when safe to do so. Not the biker, not the traffic already in the road - but her. Thats what it comes down to at the end of the day. Thats why we have 'give way'.
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Im not plain stupid, just a special kind of stoopid.
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[mod]I think the court has already apportioned responsibility between the immediate parties, hence this thread. Further "Judgements" aren't really of any great value and risk having this thread degenerate into a slanging match, which will NOT be tolerated.
[/mod]
Now my personal two penn'orth. The description of the junction suggests that Give Way or not, the lines of sight do not allow a driver to establish safe passage whilst keeping their vehicle behind the line. This indicates a flaw in the design of the junction or in the maintenance of street furniture and or vegetation. IF this is the case then a conversation with the local highways agency and police to establish the history of accidents at this junction may or may not assuage any liabilty on the part of the driver, but more importantly may ensure that action is taken to improve this junction thus preventing similar or more serious incidents in the future.
What's done is done, it's whether lessons can be learned that matters now.
No Do$h - Alfa-driving Backroom Moderator
mailto:moderators@honestjohn.co.uk
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Difficult to give a view without seeing the scene (as the range of responses so far illustrate!). But i have one thought.
How close in to the kerb was the bike?.
If the junction is one where drivers need to "creep and peep" then this accident tells a story about the need to for two wheelers (powered or otherwise) to keep out from the edge and raise their visible profile. Lights and hi glo clothing are no help everthing is lost in a sea of street furniture. The "security" of taking refuge in the gutter is completely false.
The pedal bikers handbook refers to the primary riding position (well out in the road) and a secondary position (closer to the kerb but still out of the gutter. I'd be pretty sure the motor bikers handbook says the same.
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Bromp,
More than likely she was a novice. They tend to ride hugging the kerb because it gives them a feeling of safety which is as you say false.
Advanced rider training teaches you to command your road space and look for your safe place in any situation. In this situation the safe place would have been out towards the white line looking out for cars pulling out on you.
As for the other incident car drivers now routinely ignore red lights where they know there are no red light cameras and in some cases even where there are (percentage of unregistered cars increasing daily). I wait until I can see that the other traffic stream has stopped before pulling aweay usually with some muppet behind me honking his horn becuase of the 1 second delay this causes. I ride defensively because I know its hurts.
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I wait until I can see that the other traffic stream has stopped before pulling aweay usually with some muppet behind me honking his horn becuase of the 1 second delay this causes. I ride defensively because I know its hurts.
Presumably then, you're not one of those bikers who comes weaving wobbily through the line of cars to take their place at the front of the queue of traffic just because they can squeeze though the gap, even at the expense of other motorists' paintwork. If someone does that to me I expect them to be long gone the second the light turns green. They are, after all, in such a hurry they've chosen to jump the queue.
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Please, think of me and offer me support. I am struggling very very hard not to make a joke of a lost foot and a myopic woman.
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Renault,
Up to you but you might want to add in the Oxford Air Ambulance, 72 hours in intensive care, being revived twice, a grieving wife and her two small children and the fact that he was a HGV1 driver.
E34 a biker moving to the front of a line of traffic is not 'jumping the queue' he is making the best use of the available road space I know that as a BMW diver you are amazed that anything is allowed to be in front of you but hey suck it up.
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Time at th4 bar, ladies and gentleman (there has to be one in here)
Can we cool it a little pleaee? RF, you should know better and Thommo, please don't rise to it.
The rest or you? Just because I haven't named you doesn't mean I don't know what you're up to.....
Now who stole the chalk? Simpkins, is that gum you're chewing, hmmm? Polo you say? Enough to share around the class, no? Spit it out boy, spit it out......
You get the drift.
No Do$h - Alfa-driving Backroom Moderator
mailto:moderators@honestjohn.co.uk
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cm, you appear mystified as to why the biker was inept enough to collide with your wife when she failed to see her and consequently pulled out in front of her, perhaps the simple fact was the biker was so close to your wife when she decided the road was clear that she simply had no time to avoid, why dont you just accept the fact your wife was driving with less than the required amount of care and try and educate her so that in future vunerable road users are a little safer, and just be thankfull the incident wasnt a lot worse
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Pssst No Dosh........ just let me throw this one in.
In the case of O'Connel v Fraser [1963] the High Court reluctantly upheld a conviction of a motorist that edged from a park onto a road when his full view was obstructed by parked vehicle.
The junction above doesn't compare does it???
Detention .... OK
DVD
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Auxie - Let it go.
Obviously you cannot be bothered to read what CM wrote to help you get a balanced view so we'll try this way instead. You;ve made your point. Don't make it again.
And anybody who wishes may send comments about freedom of speech, censorship and the rest by e-mail.
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I have to agree with auxie, a point well made!
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I have to agree with auxie, a point well made!
...repeatedly.
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Think this has ran the course, the bikers and non bikers ain't ever going to agree!
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It is not a matter of bikers and non bikers, that is rather like saying that all non bikers think it is OK to pull out on a bike!
The facts are clear;
1/ Mrs CM was in the wrong to pull out on a bike.
2/ It is lucky that the accident was not more serious.
3/ Mrs CM has been fairly treated by the court.
4/ It is in a bikers interest to make him/herself as visible as possible .....
5/ ...... though the responsibility is on all road users, bikers or otherwise, to ensure that no other vehicles are approaching, bikes or otherwise, before pulling out of a side turning.
Regards.
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And on Cheddar's well presented note, I think it's time to close the thread.
Thank you Cheddar for wrapping it up neatly and without some of the emotional frippery that has tainted other posts on the thread.
No Do$h - Alfa-driving Backroom Moderator
mailto:moderators@honestjohn.co.uk
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