My Mrs is involved in something similar at the moment. Bloke reversed into her on a garage forecourt. Damage didn't look much so he said forget insurance, he'd pay. So she got a quote. It was a lot - split bumper etc - pobably £800 - £900 or more, I don't remember. She kept calling him but only ever got his wife. Getting no reply, she put it in the hands of her insurers (Direct Line), without thinking twice about it. She knew the guy was insured through Saga, but had no policy details from him.
Direct Line as usual were efficient - car was booked in and repaired, but she had to pay the excess when she collected it. She has made it clear on a number of occassions (including in writing) that the other party had effectively admitted liability to her (although he could now be denying I suppose...).
She is struggling to get Direct Line to understand, and try to recover her excess. Apparently they haven't even followed up for his insurance details yet, and this happened in Oct/Nov time. Don't want to hijack this thread, but ..any thoughts?
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>>She is struggling to get Direct Line to understand, and try to recover her excess.
An excess is an uninsured loss - essentially you receive a discount for excluding that amount from your insurance. This is designed to make it less worthwhile for people to claim.
Therefore an insurer will have no interest in recovering it for you.
Typically the knock for knock agreement and other similar agreements have meant it is frequently either not worthwhile, or not a priority for an insurer to follow up on the TP insurer in an vehicle AD only situation, once they are satisfied that no counter-claim is coming their way either.
Therefore an insurer will have little interest in chasing this up in line with your schedule/time-frames.
An exception is, of course, where part of the deal includes uninsured loss recovery or legal expenses cover. These typically deal with admin very well, but aren't much good in the event of a fight since they cave in rather too easily.
You may also find that when renewal is due they have reduced your NCD because you have not recovered your uninsured losses.
How much is the excess ? If you can, get it from the guy yourself and send a copy of the cheque to your insurer.
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How much is the excess ? If you can, get it from the guy yourself and send a copy of the cheque to your insurer.
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Yep..as one who's been caught in the middle of this, you wont get your NCD back until you can prove to your insurer that the other party has reimbursed your excess.
Send receipt for repair to Saga, giving as much detail as you can, holding their insured responsible. Ball is then in their court to investigate and reimburse you. No need to involve your insurance company in this bit, and as Mark says, they wont be interested in doing it for you as they will have already recovered their own costs or be in the process of doing so.
Once the cheque comes (it took only a week in my case) photocopy it and send to your insurer as proof that the other person has admitted liability, and ask them to reinstate your NCD.
In my case the final bit of getting the NCD back took months and months, but it was the photocopy of the cheque that clinched it.
(The postscript to this story is to make sure you have legal cover so that the next time someone drives into you, you can just leave everything to the accident management company appointed by your insurer using the cover and not have to involve your own insurer in repairs at all, therefore not having to pay an excess in the first place - it's all handled through the other person's insurers by the management co.)
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From PoloGirl
"(The postscript to this story is to make sure you have legal cover so that the next time someone drives into you, you can just leave everything to the accident management company appointed by your insurer using the cover and not have to involve your own insurer in repairs at all, therefore not having to pay an excess in the first place - it's all handled through the other person's insurers by the management co."
Legal cover (CLAS) and Insurer are same company (Churchill). Dont they do this automatically?
I just reported the accident. Should I have done something else?
Thanks in advance
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Sit tight and wait for the third party statement. I am assuming that when you asked for this that they committed to send it ?
When you get that, then you can assess which approach will work (and we can offer opinions if you wish);
1) Accept loss of NCD and get over it
2) Push Churchill Legal Cover to recover your excess
3) Recover excess yourself, create enourmous stink, insist on return of NCD and refund of CLAS premium since it was worthless.
There isn't much else to do at the moment, so keep progressing the statement.
Hassling CLAS or the TP might help, but given that you'll have the statement in the next day or so, probably better to wait until you know what you're dealing with.
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Update
Still waiting for the TP?s statement so phoned Churchill for update. They tell me they are waiting for it from the TP?s insurers. Shouldn?t they have it already?
While on the phone I asked the guy about the ?blame? issue as the TP tells me she accepts liability. He told me that TP?s insurers do not have to accept the TP?s interpretation of the accident and who was to blame. The TP admitting fault at the scene or afterwards is irrelevant.
So out of interest while I wait as it now may be a while. (Forgive my ignorance)
Does this mean that the TP insurers can ?ignore? the TP statement or does it mean it can exploit a vague statement especially with no independent witnesses?
Does my insurance company base their stance on the TP?s insurers statement rather than the TP?s statement? (Since the insurers only deal with each other, Churchill tell me they have to trust the other insurer passes on the relevant info). This would make sense as they don?t seem to see the point of me asking for it.
If they haven?t seen the TP?s statement why do they readily propose:-
?Unfortunately the other party is continuing to hold you responsible for the accident. However, in view of the differing versions of events provided by both parties and the lack of independent witness evidence, they have proposed a settlement on a 50-50 basis. In the circumstances, we feel this is the best form of settlement we could hope to achieve?
Is this the usual practice?
Now, still assuming the TP is telling me the truth, why would my insurer not be interested in it?
.*********
So does ?me? seeing the statement and regardless of the contents have any relevance?
On the point of contacting the TP for the excess wouldn?t this harassment? I?m sure if it was me I would refer them to the Insurer. I wouldn?t pay. Isn?t that the whole idea of insurance?
Thanks
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Shouldn?t they have it already?
No. In the course of AD claims they believe what each other says.
Try these examples;
Two cars, both Comprehensive, both with £100 adxs, ignoring Uninsured Loss recovery insurance
Driver 1 at fault
Insurer 1 pays for driver 1 damage
Insurer 2 pays for driver 2 damage
Insurer 1 pays for driver 2 excess
Driver 2 at fault
Insurer 1 pays for driver 1 damage
Insurer 2 pays for driver 2 damage
Insurer 2 pays for driver 1 excess
See ? No difference except for who paid which excess. So what do they care ? It makes no difference for them and it costs far more money to argue the point and decide than simply coughing for your own insured damage.
How do they decide who is at fault so that one or other will lose their bonus. Easy.
You get your excess back, you're not at fault, no loss of bonus
You don't get your excess back, you are at fault, you lose your bonus.
Neither of you get your excess back, well, you'll probably both lose your bonus.
So what do they care ? Prove you recovered your excess, then keep your bonus. If not, then not.
Uninsured Loss Recovery insurance is different. They charge you a premium to recover your excess for you. They'll be successful when letters do it. If it needs going to court, or even seriously threatening going to court, forget it. Nto going to happen.
All of the above, and most of the stuff below, assumes that it is an accidental damage (AD) claim only with no uninsured losses other than ADXS. Although any other uninsured loss would follow the same logic, but it is quite different for non-motor or non-ad (injury) claims.
He told me that TP?s insurers do not have to accept the TP?s interpretation of the accident and who was to blame.
Not quite. Who was at fault (to blame) is not relevant. See above.
Until they get to the excess.
Anything they pay out is paid "without prejudice" which essentially means they're paying because they want to, they admit nothing, and might change their mind next week if any other amount arises. They are not permitted to admit blame on your behalf, and neither do they want to affect any potential future position. Imagine they told the TP it was your fault, then they found out that you were a professional driver, the TP was a friend of your boss who fired you for having a fault accident, you were penniless, lost your house, your wife walked out with the kids and Aston Villa lost yet again.
You then proved it wasn't your fault and sued them into the dirt.
Consequently "without prejudice" is the way to go.
The TP admitting fault at the scene or afterwards is irrelevant.
Not really. It is not 100%, but if the case ever gets to a court then the judge will attach some weight to it, depending on when it was said, how it was said, under what circumstances it was said, and whether or not he was sure it was said.
And it just makes it a little more difficult to show a jduge/recorder/whatever that they acted reasonably it not paying up not to mention what The Sun would make of it.
Does this mean that the TP insurers can ?ignore? the TP statement or does it mean it can exploit a vague statement especially with no independent witnesses?
Yes and yes, although go and wash your mouth out with soap for suggesting an insurer would ever "exploit" anybody or anything.
If they haven?t seen the TP?s statement why do they readily propose:- ?Unfortunately the other party is continuing to hold you responsible for
Because they don't care and have no vested interest and it justifies them doing no more about it.
Is this the usual practice?
Yes, unless like me you've got a big mouth and are persistent.
Now, still assuming the TP is telling me the truth, why would my insurer not be interested in it?
See above.
.*********
I don't know what you said, but the swear filter didn't like it; and since it nailed an entire sentence then it didn't like it a lot. Therefore neither do I. Don't do it again.
So does ?me? seeing the statement and regardless of the contents have any relevance?
Yes, because if the TP does think it was their fault, you just might be able to get your excess out of them, or a promise to pay it, before their insurer knows what's going on. Do that and you're home and dry.
On the point of contacting the TP for the excess wouldn?t this harassment? I?m sure if it was me I would refer them to the Insurer. I wouldn?t pay. Isn?t that the whole idea of insurance?
The insurer has no liability to you. Although he has a liability to his insured to cover his liability to you. Therefore, the insurer can tell you to stuff off if he so chooses, although typically that would be unwise and unreasonable.
Go for the TP. He, with luck will pay, with luck (but less) will promise to pay or that his insurer will pay, or worst case will send it to his insurer and ask them to deal with it.
Hwoever, it is up to you whether or not you ever contact his insurer, although it would be reasonable to do so.
Thanks
You're welcome, but I think that's quite enough from me until you get the statement. Retro is welcome to pick the subject up, he certainly knows enough to do so.
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Thanks Mark and thanks for the in-depth analysis.
Several parts made me chuckle esp. Aston Villa!
On the point of the swear filter I didnt know there was one. Sorry. I questioned whether the Legal Assistance (CLAS) was worth anything in these circumstances.
He told me this only comes into play for claims against me.
If you are still there how and when do they recover my loss of excess?
Again thanks Mark for all the superb explanations.
Cheers
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It depends what insurance you have; Legal Assistance could be anything.
Can you find it on the net or some reference to it ? If you can, point me at it and I'll have a look.
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Still waiting for the statement!
Should it take this long?
Churchill say they have had no reponse by phone and have sent a letter on the 15th Feb. They also say that the TP may not have taken a (written) statement as its quicker by phone?
First claim- didnt think these things were this drawn out.
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No, its a ridiculous period of time.
Firstly, since the TP is so slow at even sending a statement to say it was your fault, I am even more suprised that you were advised to accept a deal which involved you accepting 50% of the blame.
Its difficult to know what to advise when I'm not there and involved, if you see what I mean.
Excuse me if I have asked before, but;
1) Have you had your car repaired ?
2) Who paid ?
3) Did you have to pay your excess ?
4) How much ?
5) Do you have any other uninsured losses ?
6) Do you know what is the current state of your NCD ?
7) When is your next renewal ?
If you can answer those, then we can think about how best to handle this if that statement is not going to be forthcoming.
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Hello Mark
Just a reminder of previous....
Churchill say that they do these dealings with the TP insurers over the phone and 'believe' each other and therefore no need for paperwork. (They were surprized I wanted to see the statement). Also, I assume by TP you mean the Third Party (and not her insurer?). The TP told me she has sent the statement( written with sketch).
My insurer tell me they have had received no contact from her insurer since they requested the statement on my behalf, hence, having to write a letter. On this note my insurer seemed puzzled as why I would want to see it as it as it has no relevance anyway.
1) Car repaired
2,3,4) I paid the excess only which was £150
5) No uninsured losses
6) As my policy was due two weeks after accident the new policy is based on a loss of 2 years NCD
7) 1st November 2005
Thanks
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Ok;
Option 1, drop it and write if off to experience.
Option 2;
Speak to the other driver. Get a copy of her written statement from her directly. When you've got that, assuming it says that it was her fault, then write to her and her insurance company enclosing a receipt for your excess, a copy of her statement and ask for remibursement of your excess.
If you get it, then forward proof of that (photocopy of check and letter) to your insurance company and demand resintatement of your bonus, refund of the excess premium that you have paid and an apology for their earlier ridiculous advice.
If you do not get it, then decide;
Option 1, drop it and write it off to experience
Option 2; small claims court
If you get the letter from her, and it admits it was her fault, I suspect that you will find that her insurance company will roll over so fast your ears will be ringing.
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>>Isn?t that the whole idea of insurance?
I guess the answer ot that would be to work out, if you can remember, why did you buy this particular policy and what is important to you about a motor insurance policy?
1) Price ?
2) convenience ?
3) breadth of cover ?
4) quality of uninsured loss recovery service ?
5) add-ons ?
6) reputation ?
7) driving restrictions ?
8) whatever.....
And then ask yourself how many of those you actually checked out at the time. Was it, by any chance, one ? Was that price ?
Think about that next time.
And from what little I know of Churchill they seem pretty good. But they are not going to insure something you are not paying them to insure (your excess) nor are they going to provide a service that you are not paying for.
By the way, if you wrote down everything you wanted, expected or would like from insurance and then sent it to a Lloyds underwriter for a price, you wouldn't like it, even in the unlikely event that you could afford it.
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Thanks Mark
Discussions only with y insurer(Churchill).
The car was repaired. I paid the excess.(£150.
No uninsured losses to my knowledge.
Yes the accident would be open to interpretation. It was on a bend on a residentional road with parked cars leaving single lane access with occasional car spaces. I stopped and the other driver didnt see me, continued and hit the drivers side front headlight/bumper.
As I said I phoned the driver who again admitted liability saying "I always cut that corner-I should've known it would happen one day".
Clearly if the other driver blames me on paper (speaking to me is one thing) then thats thats the end of it.
Just want to make sure the Ins. Co is being upfront
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Get the statement and then come back here if we can help further.
However, it does sound dodgy unless they are prepared to confirm it was their fault.
If you could get your excess from the other person, then that would be taken as proof the accident was not your fault and would protect you from any loss of bonus, irrespective of what the respective insurer's then chose to do.
In fact, try quite hard to get your excess back from the other guy.
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Can I catch you while you're in advice mode please Mark ;)
Ref the 'uninsured loss' / 'legal assistance' bit - Do you know if this is available as a standalone package rather than part of a normal policy. I ask mainly as a cost saver as I have three policies, car and two bikes and it would save a fair bit, also possibly give them more incentive if ever needed by being seperate from the insurer??
ta,
Martin
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Martin,
Yes it is available as a standalone package. Most insurance brokers would be able to help (try Bennetts).
Also, check your house insurance - you may already have it, or it may be available as an extra. Check also the AA and other motoring organisations, whilst I don't know for sure I would bet that they offer something.
But do bear in mind my comments that these policies, in my opinion, do a good job of following the steps and doing the admin - which is frequently productive.
But they cave in when it comes to a fight - not so much the legal eagles decision as the insurer being unwilling to back anything expensive and so deny authorisation.
Therefore, please see them as useful rather than an absolute solution.
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Hello again Mark.
Still waiting for the statement.
I have with my policy Churchill Legal Assistance Service(CLAS). Do I need to contact them? Isnt it automatic?
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hi, unisured losses. Some ins companies offer this at inception (spelling) But it may be something you could claim on a no win no fee basis. After all if you have already "won" the blame side of the accident it must be a forgone conclusion.
Clive.
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