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Will they be reducing the emissions threshold in MOTs? My XUD barely registered on the meter, (thanks to a new air filter, 3 tins of fuel system condition, Redex diesel treatment and an oil change...), but it'll be older and smokier in a few years time.
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What about all those disgusting, filthy emissions from diesel powered buses, trucks, lorries etc?
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What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
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What about all those disgusting, filthy emissions from diesel powered buses, trucks, lorries etc?
Ah, but the bus ones are healthy emissions as they are from Public Transport. Little known fact*: You can live in the exhaust of a bus and you will be fitter and healthier for it.
(* Or load of codswallop. Depends on your political affiliation)
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Ah, but the bus ones are healthy emissions as they are from Public Transport. Little known fact*: You can live in the exhaust of a bus and you will be fitter and healthier for it.
Maths, No Dosh :)
Which produces lower total emissions: double-decker bus with 70 people on board, or 70 cars carrying driver only? (someone of the, not even warmed up properly)
The bus would have to be pretty dire to come out anywhere near as bad.
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The bus would have to be pretty dire to come out anywhere near as bad."
Or have few or no passengers - which seems to be the case with most buses round here bar rush hours.
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Where are these mythical double decker buses with seventy people on board? Most of the ones I used to see running around London each day had three or four passengers, and belched out more smoke than the Flying Scotsman.
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Most of the ones I used to see running around London each day had three or four passengers, and belched out more smoke than the Flying Scotsman.
You should set up a website with details of where to find these enpty buses! On my weekly visits to London, it's a long time since I got one which was less than half-full, even at 10pm
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Eventually it will be state-acquisition of our property, including our cars, this seems to happen with any trotskyite state. Or if you work out how much tax you pay to drive maybe they already have?
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"where to find these empty buses"
Don't know if I'm reading it wrong but bus occupancy rates quoted here
www.transwatch.co.uk/transport-fact-sheet-1.htm
suggest that it is either 9 or 16 depending on how it is worked out. That suggests that it may be easy to find an empty bus virtually anywhere outside London. In fact, if they are as busy as you say in London perhaps every other bus in the country is empty!!
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Don't know if I'm reading it wrong but bus occupancy rates quoted here www.transwatch.co.uk/transport-fact-sheet-1.htm
What a strange site, that transwatch.
It's full of denuncuiations of the figures used by everyone else, but its own figures are mostly unsourced -- including those ones.
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The media were euphoric a couple of days ago that Mr Brown decided to postpose his proposed fuel tax hike. What a nice man. Like he is doing us a great big favour?
Maybe I've missed something, but where has 70% of my fuel cost been going?
Oz (as was)
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Two points:
1. It's not "the end" for diesel* as diesels still churn out less CO2 per mile than equivalent petrol engines.
2. Is it really from 1 Jan? Did he not even have the decency to wait until the new tax year?
* Sadly. I can't STAND the noise they make!
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I love the smell of diesel smoke, just about as much as I hate the rotten egg smell of catalysed petrol cars. Mind you, I hate reality TV shows and am probably in a minority there too.
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Where are these mythical double decker buses with seventy people on board? Most of the ones I used to see running around London each day had three or four passengers, and belched out more smoke than the Flying Scotsman.
I'll second that, a large proportion of the buses I see in London have eight to ten passengers on board.
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Where can I get the CO2g/100km values for buses? It wiuld be interesting to work out the CO2 output per passenger mile from a bus and compare it with the CO2 output per passenger mile from a diesel car. One would have to get an average number of passengers travelling on a bus though. It might make interesting reading!
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Where can I get the CO2g/100km values for buses?
*v0n is pulling old notes from some article*
The rough figures are:
1400g/km for Volvo B7TL doubledecker
1300-1450g/km for older Trident DD Cummins
1280-1350g/km for Leyland Olympians
1230g/km for DAF DB250.
Biggest poluter - Mercedes Citaro bendy bus at approx 1585g/km and average fuel consumption of 4.5 mpg.
Numbers were from 2003 and route 25 in London IIRC
So, optimistically, using rough calculations, you only need average of 16 people on board every bendy bus at all times throughout the entire day for it to be less polutant than a typical mum + child school run in a Freelander. Now, the average number of passengers per bus in 2003 acc. to www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/ltr2003/overview-transport-tren...l
>TFL
data was 14.4, so they are just slightly below the required quota. :D
So, if I was to use Ken Livingstone's indoctrination propaganda tactics I would have to announce that based on availabe figures currently an average 6 mile travel by bus is more poluting, more time consuming, less pleasant and much more expensive than similar journey in nations most hated 4x4 vehicle. But I'm not that kind of guy, so I'll just say what certain member of Back Room keeps repeating from time to time - "bendy buses, aren't they comfy and pretty". ;)
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v0n, you are missing a few elements from your calculation.
First, the emission figures may not be fully comparable the www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk gives some explanations on the calculations, but it's fairly clear that the CO2 level figures used for tax purposes are based on a specific set of test conditions. Those conditions may not be the same for the cars and the buses -- I don't know which way that would skew the figures, but some caution is due when comparing.
Another crucial factor in comparisons is cold starts: the bus warms up its engine at the start of the day, and keeps going. A car-driver making 3 return trip in the city each days has 6 cold starts -- the car may never reach optimum operating temperature, and until it does, its pollution levels are much higher. Are the car emission figures you are using really based on a short journey from a cold start, which is the valid comparison for the car?
Then, average car occupancy is not two people, as per your example -- it's about 1.6; measures to increase bus useage will increase the buses' occupancy levels, whereas the more cars on the road, the lower the car occupancy levels.
The next mising element is the cost of production: there's a lot of pollution caused in building a vehicle. A London bus is likely to have a service life of over 500,000 miles, but I doubt many cars reach 200,000 miles before being scrapped.
And on cost, you're way out. The car costs about 50p per mile to run (see www.theaa.com/allaboutcars/advice/advice_rcosts_di...p ), whereas the bus fare for mum+child is £1.40 -- so on anything more than 3 miles, the bus is cheaper. Of course, if mum buys a saver ticket or a travelcard or a 1-day bus pass, the break-even point is less than 1 mile.
Taking the 6-mile journey you suggest, it costs £3 by car: the car would have to have three adult passengers to be as cheap as the most expensive bus fare for that journey.
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Another crucial factor in comparisons is cold starts: the bus warms up its engine at the start of the day, and keeps going. A car-driver making 3 return trip in the city each days has 6 cold starts -- the car may never reach optimum operating temperature, and until it does, its pollution levels are much higher. Are the car emission figures you are using really based on a short journey from a cold start, which is the valid comparison for the car?
I hope that this is no longer the case, but when I used to attend skid pan sessions at a bus depot on a Sunday morning, there would be buses stood around for hours with their engines running.
All apparently because either (a) drivers weren't allowed to start buses in the morning, it was a fitter's job, or (b) drivers were to important to start buses in the morning, it was a fitter's job, and being sunday morning, there would be only one fitter, and he had his fitting to do..
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Quoted after NoWheels
v0n, you are missing a few elements from your calculation.(...) Then, average car occupancy is not two people, as per your example -- it's about 1.6; measures to increase bus useage will increase the buses' occupancy levels, whereas the more cars on the road, the lower the car occupancy levels.
(..)And on cost, you're way out. The car costs about 50p per mile to run (see www.theaa.com/allaboutcars/advice/advice_rcosts_di...p ), whereas the bus fare for mum+child is £1.40
I agree with your points on bus emissions, however, since there is no manufacturer lab emission data, that's the figures we have to work with.
Fair point on occupancy levels, although in the example I offered we were considering typical school run. 4x4 vs. bus. And that brings us to the car cost per mile issue. You can't really use that figure, simply because most of the cost remains the same whether you use your car or leave it at home. What I mean is - the mother with kid on the school run in the example is not renting her car, she owns it. So, while she's trying to fork out that £1.40 in front of the bus driver and her kid is looking for a place to seat the clock on her car insurance is still ticking away, car tax is running out, the oil in the car on her driveway is getting closer to the 6 month service by the minute and the finance with APR remains exactly the same. So, as long as [b]her other car is a bus[/b] 0 :D ) most of the cost of the first car is still pressing on her wallet. So, all she does on her 6 mile trip is exchange the cost of 1 litre of diesel for £1.40 fare...
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Interesting scenario this morning, an accident closed a main road in Tottenham.
The roads on the routes used by bendy buses have been re-engineered because they can't make the sort of tight turns you can in a double decker.
Trouble is, this morning they were having to use bits of road that haven't been straightened!
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What about all those disgusting, filthy emissions from diesel powered buses, trucks, lorries etc? - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
Not forgetting floating gin palaces, ships, and of course aircraft. All of which are infinitely bigger polluters than cars........but no fuel tax on them.
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What exactly is BIK relief and what is a Euro4 diesel, and have I got one? (96 Mondeo)
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and have I got one? (96 Mondeo)
Nope. There, that bit was easy :o)
ND
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Tom, BIK = Benefit In Kind, it's an inland revenue phrase for the way they assess for income tax, employees who are provided with (among other things) a company car that is available for private use. It's all explained in fine detail in Honest John's FAQs number 8.
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Benefit in Kind taxation is either:
A carefully crafted set of rules to capture the non-monetary benefits offered to employees as part of their overall payment package so that the total of that package can properly be subjected to the appropriate level of taxation
or
A golden opportunity for the taxman to push his nose into every aspect of a firm and its operations, thereby placing a completely pointless bureaucratic burden on the economy, any slips being punished by the fines and accountant’s fees that flow from the investigation founded on an inspector’s discovery of a undeclared but trivial payment.
“BIK relief” is a rule allowing less tax subject to certain conditions, thus translating as:
Carefully targeted rules to promote activity in line with the country’s long-term policy goals such as the reduction in automotive pollution and consumption
or
This week’s headline-grabber aimed at making Gordon look less mean.
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and of course aircraft. All of which are infinitely bigger polluters than cars........but no fuel tax on them.
Nope, based on say two people in a car and say 400 in a 747 the 747 produces less CO2 per person per mile.
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Hi HJ,
A 747-400 can do 7000 miles on 200,000 litres of fuel carrying between 400 and 500 people, call it 400 to be conservative.
200,000 litres = 44,000 imp gals divided by 400 people = 110 gals per person. 7000 miles divided by 110 gallons = 63.6 mpg per person.
Perhaps if I revised my claim and said based on ONE person in a car and 400 in a 747 then the 747 clearly produces less CO2 per person per mile.
However if the 747 is carrying 500 people then it = 80mpg per person, equivelent to a car carrying 2 people at 40mpg 4 people at 20mpg.
What I don't have readily to hand is C02 figures for RB211-524's or CF6's however high bypass gas turbines opperating at 40000ft burn their fuel very cleanly so over a long haul flight the CO2 would be low. Short haul flights where a large proportion of the journey is spent taxying, taking off and at low altitudes would result in higher CO2 due to the turbojet not operating at peak efficiency. A bit like short stop/starts in a car relative to motorway cruising.
Regards.
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Point of information: Its only Avtur (fuel for jet engines) that's untaxed. Avgas (for piston aero engines) is taxed, and currently retails at about 95p - £1.25 per litre.
Brooklands
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No, it's because there's higher demand so they can fill their seats at a higher price. Market economy at work.
What Cheddr failed to point out is that pollutants at 50,000 feet are somewhat more damaging to the ecosphere than those at 5 feet......
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No, it's because there's higher demand so they can fill their seats at a higher price. Market economy at work.
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Generally yes, though on occasions at quieter times the airlines know that there is a critical mass of people that will pay almost anything, business men, diplomats etc. Therefore if their breakeven is perhaps £8000 for the flight getting 100 people on a 500 seat 747 paying £825 covers the costs.
What Cheddar failed to point out is that pollutants at 50,000 feet are somewhat more damaging to the ecosphere than those at 5 feet......
Fair point, not quite as simple as that though. Really a different subject.
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