Hi,
After an interpretation on a restrictive covenant . . hope there's a legal eagle out there who may be able to help.
Have a Peugeot Avant Garde motor home on order for next year. Have had a few 'comments' from our neighbours regarding restrictive covenants. The offending section is contained in the Convenyance document between the original builders and the first owners, although I guess they also apply to me . .. ?
"No caravan house on wheels or boat or trailer or tent shall be placed, parked or allowed to remain on the property hereby conveyed or any part thereof without the consent of the vendor."
The question, I guess, is who is "The Vendor" now? The verse above is between the builder and the first buyer of the property. As we now own the property (and have no vendor), who is this passage referring to?
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hi , I am in the same situation ref covenant and as far as i am aware the vendor is you or in my case me.
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Usually - and you really should take legal advice on this point from the CAB - it's more complicated than that.
The vendor is usually taken to be the vendor and his successors in title from all the land that was split up into the various properties.
In that case, the vendor is you, and is also your neighbours. The RC may be for the benefit of some retained land, for your immediate neighbours, or for the whole of the development.
The restrictive covenant may not always be binding though, depending on how it is drafted, so take legal advice. £150 for an hour's advice is not a lot compared to £30k+ for a decent motorhome.
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Regardless of what the RC says it sounds like you could be heading for neighbour trouble.....
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I agree with David.
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Is a motor home a "caravan" within the meaning of the covenant, similarly it is not a "house" , on or off, wheels!
--
Roger. (Costa del Sol, España)
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Thanks for the info so far, I'm speaking to my solicitor tommorrow & will continue to post to let anyone in same position know outcome. When I ordered the motorhome my only concern was if it would fit on the drive & if I could afford it!!
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Not a lawyer, so won't give advice.
We kept chickens at a previous house where there was a covenant forbidding the keeping of "fowls, cockerels...." etc. Recognising this I spoke to the nearer neighbours who had no objections; had they done we would have complied.
We had another neighbour at the time who, contrary to another covenant that prevented him renewing his windows in anything but white, replaced them with brown plastic. Several neighbours complained, to which the response was "so what?" (they moved shortly afterwards).
Of course any of the objectors could have tried to enforce the covenant but none did.
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The sanctions may be minimal or non-existant (or breach planning laws in some areas such as National Parks, when the sanctions could be very real) but the grief it could cause between neighbours could be the real downside.
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There is exactly the same wording on a RC for my neighbours land-a large plot was split in 2 parts. I assume it is standard wording.
I questioned this phrase with my solicitor who stated that anyone owning that property could not allow those items to be parked there. Even though I cannot see any part of their garden from my property, I could(in theory) object if anything of that description was parked.
Depending on the size and position of your garden I can understand why neighbours would not be happy of have the view of a motorhome or caravan from their window.
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Cherries.
An Englishman/woman and his/her castle and all that........but, notwithstanding any restrictive covenant, I think I would have the hump if my neighbour shoved their Motor Home, Caravan, JCB Digger, rusty Jag Mk10 without wheels, speed boat & trailer, flat bed lorry (either 1 at a time or in any combination) on their drive way where I could see it from my front room window.
Call me a snob, tell me to mind my own business, but to be honest if there is anything destined to get up the nose of your neighbours (apart from renting your house to a load of coked up ravers), it is the question of what is on your driveway where it can be seen by you and all and sundry.
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I agree with 'tack'.
I lived in Germany for a while and there are a whole host of rules and regulations (local and national) about what you can and can't do. Even the exact days and hours you put your rubbish out for collection; types of vehicles in front of your house, times that lawns can be mown, stereos can be on etc etc.
I found it very tiresome at the time and longed for the 'freedom' of the UK. When I came back here I realised that the price to pay for this 'freedom' is often a poor and degraded environment and a lot of ill-feeling between neighbours. We seem to have lost the ability to empathise with others and have consideration for their rights.
Indeed, driving around many suburban areas these days is like driving around a small industrial estate with vans and work vehicles of all description parked all over the place.
If there is a RC stating that you can't park a motor home in the driveway then I think it is only reasonable that you should comply - presumably you were aware of the convenant at the time of purchase?
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Wow....my first post ever received an approval, not a criticism!
Excellent.
In fact it isn't just motors, I just think that everyone has a need to respect their living environment, including that of their neighbours.
The bloke opposite me has a blue van, a green 1970's Rolls Corniche, a Subaru Imprezza and a Land Rover. His Mum has a Toyota car. The Rolls takes up the whole drive of his terraced house, so he dumps his van outside my house. That is all I can see from my front window. I wouldn't mind if it was a car. Why doesn't he park HIS van on HIS drive where HE can see it from HIS front window.
Another bloke a few doors along has a Mini Cooper. Everyday, he empties his ashtray and cans of coke, sweet wrappers and empty fag packets into the gutter outside his house. In fact, he drives from his house 200 yards to the shops to get his fags and paper. He doesn't even get out of first gear! On his mobile with one hand, lighting up a fag with the other. I didn't realise that Mini's came with auto pilot! He has a rotten rusting white van with half flat tyres dumped in the road. We nickname him "Thrush" because he is an irritating ...t!
Just 1/2 a mile away from my house, another bloke has what looks like a fishing smack on a trailer on his Bungalow driveway. Outside my Mums house there is a car up on bricks with a polythene cover over it. Been there for months and months, taking up someone else's parking space in a small cul-de-sac. And, incredible as it may seem, there was once a bloke who had a small aircraft without wings on his driveway 1/2 mile the other way. What's that all about then?
We only live in 1930's terraced and semi/Det houses. Not worth a fortune, but worth even less with these inconsiderate pink fluffy dice.
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Blimey tack,
All we want to do is put a brand new motorhome on the drive!! Perhaps our neighbours should think themselves lucky we're such considerate people.
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Cheries,
You know this is going to cause a shedload of trouble with your neigbours. you said as much.
If they make your life unbearable then frankly you cant whinge and whine
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If only we could all live somewhere without neighbours!
One of my neighbours complained about how low (!) I cut my privet hedge ~ it was over 11 feet high when I moved in and I have reduced it to 7 feet , which ( in view of the fact that both our properties are bungalows) I think is very reasonable. Because I stood my ground and wouldn't let him browbeat me, he broke off diplomatic relations and declared that he never wanted to speak to me again. He's kept it up for well over 18 months, and if I try to heal the rift and bid him "good morning" when I am gardening at the front and he is passing with his dog, he just ignores me. Effectively he has shot himself in the foot, because it means that he can never complain to me again about anything ~ because to do that would mean that he would have to talk to me!.
If you have whingeing neighbours, and you know that you are in the right and are being reasonable, don't argue with them ~ just stand your ground and carry on with your plan. You can't let neighbours rule your life.
--
L\'escargot by name, but not by nature.
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Another issue to think of here is the burglars view. Motor home normally on drive means people in house. MH gone people are away in it, therefore house empty!
Jim
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What about mobile burglars who may follow you in your van to Jaywick, then burgle it when you are in the chippy?
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Cherries & All
Hi, excuse me for acting as "agent provocateur" stirrer in chief of opinion, grand apoplexitor and teeth gnasher. I have tried to synthesise the reaction you can expect from your neighbours into its purest form of 100% bile. I am honestly not as much of a rabid Osama Bin Laden as I sound. I just love people watching and puzzling over lifes rich tapestry. When you think of your neighbours who are about to put up the equivalent of a "mental" Berlin Wall, you can see how wars start. It is all about territory and what you can see from it, what is encroaching upon it, who is going to spoil it. If you lived in Tajikistan, you'd have to hope your neighbours didn't have AK47's.
Not liking change, it is mans oldest enemy and manifests itself in many ways.....even down to having a caravan or motor home or a Sherman Tank parked on the drive of your neighbours house, putting up cladding, having a green slate roof instead of a red one. Remember the guy who had a 20ft plastic shark sticking out of his roof as a "nose thumb" to his neighbours who objected to his plans? Nice!
Personally, if you want a Peugeot Motor home, go for it. Not like you are setting up a Gypsey encampment are you. Just remember that in making this innocent purchase, your neighbours are already putting this purchase of yours into that mould.
Best of luck.
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Remember the guy who had a 20ft plastic shark sticking out of his roof as a "nose thumb" to his neighbours who objected to his plans? Nice!
Ah that would be the Headington shark.
If you have not seen it
www.headington.org.uk/history/misc/shark.htm
It is still there.
But what a mess it is now. I have been past it several times recently.
www.thisisoxfordshire.co.uk/oxfordshire/archive/20...l
If you approach Oxford from the East via the M40 /A40 just after the Headington traffic lights you can see it in New High Street on your left.
I wish you all good neighbours.
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Rubbing your neighbours up the wrong way will always cause long term trouble. Have you considered a secure compound to keep your motorhome? Yes it will cost a few pounds a week, but it should be more secure than your driveway. Most that I know of have a 24 hour security guard and cctv, and you will probably have a reduction in your insurance for the motorhome.
Both my parents and a friend had Restrictive Covenents on their new homes and had to comply. My parents used to have a caravan and the friend had a large white van (no commercial vehicles restriction). Both used a secure compound and found them good.
Hope this helps.
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Cherries, I'd be inclined to take seriously the difficulties that arise from falling out with your neighbours. It's really not a good situation to get into.
I speak from sad experience there: got into a tangle with my next-door neighbours about their extension, and it was hell for a few months until we sorted it. The nice thing is that we are now good friends again and it has become a sort of a standing joke between us: how on earth did we all get into such a silly tangle when I'd actually supported their planning application? (We all reckon it was because their architect was a clown, which is true but may not be the whole story, but at least it has allowed us all to get past it).
One thing to remember is that if you go down the legal route, you will have a dispute with neighbours which you would have to declare if you ever come to sell your house. That could be a very expensive situation. In the meantime, your council's planning officers might have something to say on it all.
Artful Dodger's suggestion seems to provide a way out which might not actually cost you much money (if the rent for the secure compound is offset by reduced insurance).
One compromise might be the idea one of my neighbours has come up with: they keep their caravan at a secure compound in the winter, and put it on the driveway in the summer when they have it on hand to go away most weekends. If I think about it, I suppose it's a bit of a blot on the landscape, but they are such friendly folks that nobody has any problem with it all.
Rather than end up shelling out money to lawyers, have you thought of baking a cake and inviting your neighbours around for a chat to see if you can all come up with something that would keep you all happy? If you showed that you respected their concerns and were keen not to cheese them off, I think it might not be too hard to find a way that you could all come out of it as friends.
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Its a pretty sad state of affairs when neighbours who are, for the most part, complete strangers have an opinion or even object to my chosen mode of transport. Is there some list of "acceptable" vehicles one can be allowed to park on their own property?.
I will be the first to admit that yes I would rather look at a Ferrari 360 parked next door than a rusty transit, but I'll die before I suggest that somehow one should be allowed to park there but not the other. There is alot to be said for mind one's own business.
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>>I will be the first to admit that yes I would rather look at a Ferrari 360 parked next door than a rusty transit, but I'll die before I suggest that somehow one should be allowed to park there but not the other. There is alot to be said for mind one's own business.
There's also a lot to be said for neighbourly consideration. Whilst I will defend your right to park your rusting heap outside my door, I would hope that you would show sufficient courtesy not to park your rusting heap outside my front door, whilst keeping your shiny BMW on your drive.
Cherries: if I were you, I'd find somewhere else for the Motorhome.
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Its a pretty sad state of affairs when neighbours who are, for the most part, complete strangers have an opinion or even object to my chosen mode of transport. Is there some list of "acceptable" vehicles one can be allowed to park on their own property?. I will be the first to admit that yes I would rather look at a Ferrari 360 parked next door than a rusty transit, but I'll die before I suggest that somehow one should be allowed to park there but not the other. There is alot to be said for mind one's own business.
It is nothing to do with a 'chosen method of transport', rather where to park their chosen transport.
If you buy a property that has certain restrictions, surely it is reasonable to comply with those restrictions; especially if non-compliance annoys neighbours.
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Its a pretty sad state of affairs when neighbours who are, for the most part, complete strangers have an opinion or even object to my chosen mode of transport. Is there some list of "acceptable" vehicles one can be allowed to park on their own property?. I will be the first to admit that yes I would rather look at a Ferrari 360 parked next door than a rusty transit, but I'll die before I suggest that somehow one should be allowed to park there but not the other. There is alot to be said for mind one's own business.
There's also a lot to be said for showing a little respect, courtesy and consideration for other people. This is the kind of mentality that says its OK for me to smoke in pub/restaurant; double park; have my stereo blasting out with windows wide open etc. etc. In otherwords its part of that selfish, yobbish attitude that is the curse of the British.
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This thread has made me laugh in particular Tack. Thanks a lot brighened up an otherwise dull Monday evening !
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These moral high grounds are great, aren't they?
It makes me laugh that someone who may not have been even contemplating having a motorhome when they bought their property are pilloried for not taking notice of this covenant ruling at the time.
I have such a list of covenants where I live and did not even pay attention to the similarly worded one as is in the first post. Should I choose to buy a motorhome/caravan/rust bucket it would probably not even have occurred to me until after the initial adrenalin rush that, maybe, there'd be a problem with some snooty neighbours.
Unfortunately, the world is full of people who have nothing better to do with their lives than ruin everyone else's fun.
It obviously depends on how well you get on with your neighbours in the first place, but personally, I'd now check out some of the secure storage places you probably have local to you.
Then concentrate on their windows, conservatories, driveways, etc. and report them.
LOL.
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I have a covenant on my home that I may shoot my neighbours if they breathe in an irritating manner, smack their lips noisily when they eat or go to Clacton for their summer holidays.
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Respect and consideration is what I speak of though. I detest tobacco smoke probably more than you do, but I respect a smoker's right to enjoy a cigarette or 50. I choose instead to stay away from smokers (I can count the amount of times I have been in a pub because I know smokers tend to gather there). I mind my own business as it were, rather than suggest that people shouldn't smoke (or drive whatever they like). I see it as showing consideration for the choices others make.
Live and let live, that what I try to adhere to and if that is considered a selfish and yobbish attitude then I respect your opinion even though I am completely at a loss in comprehending how you came to think that way based on what I said.
Of course this has nothing to do with rules, laws or covenants etc. It simply my response to posts where people took objection to the types or condition of vehicles their neighbours drove. Maybe I am taking it too personally as there was a time in my life when a nice house consumed almost all my income and an old car (rust free, mind you!) was all I could afford to park in front of it.
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Its a pretty sad state of affairs when neighbours who are, for the most part, complete strangers have an opinion or even object to my chosen mode of transport. Is there some list of "acceptable" vehicles one can be allowed to park on their own property?.
The intention of this sort of covenant usually seems to be to prevent large items being parked there.
I haven't heard of one which allows or forbids particular types of cars, but my own house has a covenant which basically bans large things from the front garden.
As far as I recall, the list includes:
* no caravans, boats or motohomes
* no hedge, wall or fence over 4' high
* no sheds in front garden
It all seems fair enough to me: the idea is to stop big things which block light or block the view, not dictate whether you can park a BMW or a rusty old Ford.
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I had this aggro at my last address. I bought a caravan and parked it in my drive which incidently was big enough for about 5 cars. Imagine my dismay when it was damged down the side by one of my neighbours who objected to it. Apparently there was a covenant similiar to yours Cherries. I would take legal advice if I were you - I didn't and learnt the hard way.
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\"Nothing less than 8 cylinders will do\"
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Until a couple of years ago I lived in a development with RCs preventing caravans from being parked in drives, fences in the front gardens etc.
Now in that development, there are stacks of commercial vans of all shapes and sizes as many people work in trades, at least 5 picket and chain link fences in the front gardens, one neigbour actually has a 6 foot fence dividing his garden with his next door neigbour, right up to the road!
The only time things ever got tetchy was when one of the neigbours kept parking in the culdesac meaning people could not turn in there. They had 4 vehicles and told me they were surprised at how 'small minded' everyone was wrt this. I didn't argue with him as it didn't really affect me that much. However, after one of the neighbours threatened physycal violence it was suggested that they should make maximum use of the fact theirs was the only house with enough parking for three cars in the whole culdesac.
When we moved out, he had developed the habit of parking only one car on the culdesac, which meant that usually it could be used.
And all this was achieved without a single caravan or motorhome in sight.
Well, that's Cornwall for you!
H
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Blimey, I'm glad I don't live near some of you guys.
I guess you think neighbours are being 'snooty' and 'small minded' if they complain when you have your stereo belting out with the windows open, or using an angle grinder at 11pm? Just so long as you're OK, eh?
Personally I always try to have consideration for others. Maybe this is the 'moral high ground', but I have always managed to get on with various different neighbours over the last 40 years. There is no way I would have inflicted a caravan or motorhome on them (RC or not), nor a works van come to that (even though we did run two at one time).
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Cherries,
the RCs were included in the transfer for specific reasons and your neighbours, who may have seen them as advantages when they purchased their own properties, are entitled to expect them to be adhered to. The fact that your motorhome is 'brand new' is irrelevant, it could just as well be a rusty, lime green, 20yo Winnebego with flat tyres and a leaking loo. Where do you draw the line?
Sanctimonious Pontificating Kevin...
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One of the many very good reasons that PU Towers are neighbour-free. (well not quite I can see the farm on the hill about 200 meters away.)
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I'm sure that Pugugly will agree with me on this one, but my suggestion to get legal advice is not to ratchet up the conflict, but so that you know:-
a. what you can do;
b. what the neighbour can do;
c. what the likely consequences are of getting the motorhome, or not doing so;
d. how you can get the motorhome with a minimum of fuss.
Ideally the CAB is a good port of call for free advice but a professional who charges for his (or her) time may be able to give a more detailed and practical answer.
Remember that lawyers like getting paid for their time and they're far more likely to get some cash for an hour's constructive advice than they are for a protracted neighbour dispute that achieves nothing and gives them no job satisfaction.
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Lawyers also give up their time to staff CAB Offices and can offer a detailed service. Totally agree with the above.
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>>Remember that lawyers like getting paid for their time and they're far more likely to get some cash for an hour's constructive advice than they are for a protracted neighbour dispute that achieves nothing and gives them no job satisfaction.
Very good advice indeed, and worth bearing in mind when dealing with any professional who charges by the hour - accountants, architects, surveyors etc. - and indeed plumbers, tailors & builders.
Clear simple instructions giving rise to job satisfaction and a happy customer. It keeps the fees down, too! (Which means you're more likely to pay, so the service provider is happier.)
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