I do get the feeling that if Puppetland was writing his posts they would be in green ink however;
These threads seem to quickly descend in to violently pro and anti camps. Whilst I am not that fussed either way the pro camp do seem to come up with some strange arguements.
I owned a 216 VDP, now whilst the interior was nice (for the time) the mechanics were appalling and it was the least reliable car I have ever owned plus it had a potentially life threatening design fault with the brakes (lets not go in to that again). When pointing this out the replies I got stated that:
1. They were all perfect except mine
2. All my faults must have come from my lack of maintenance of the vehicle
Lets at least try and be honest. BMC made some of the worst cars ever to take to UK roads. Most were sold to fleet buyers who'se employers had a UK only policy. Once anyone had a choice they fled from these cars faster than the speed of sound.
Todays Rover cars MAY be better but the public PERCEPTION has never changed and sales ARE falling to non-sustainable levels.
Rover is reduced to continually tarting up ageing models and does not have anywhere near the funds to produce a new model.
Should we all go out and buy British? Perhaps we should but we all know we won't.
Will Labour re-nationalise? Not even they are crazy enough for that.
Towers and Co have seen themselves alright and when the BMW dosh runs out that it. We all know it.
Alchemy had the only viable plan for the long term survival of at least a rump of the company but Byers was never going to have redundancies on his shift.
And so the saga ends...
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Straight question then.. do you think sooner or later Rover will fold? YES or NO. no other comments.
Mine is .. NO ..
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Mixed feelings on this one. I owned a Rover 400 (96 - same shape as the current 45 but less plastic bits on the bootlid) and it served me well, running to close on 100,000 miles before boredom and a large injection of cash allowed me to realise my long held desire to own an Alfa Romeo (see numerous posts passim, ad nauseum. Try searching for "italian" and "tractor")
It did have its faults, but they were mostly due to my neglect or errors. Don't overfill the washer bottle if the last person to service the car hasn't refitted the water seal on the ABS pump plug and socket would be my top tip ::rollseyes::
If Rover had developed an estate version of the 45 I suspect I would have bought it given the incredibly good value they offer. As it happens if they survive and manage to produce a 45 replacement I may still consider it. Given half a chance I'll keep the Alfa forever, as a rolling museum piece if necessary, run a mid-market car for commuting and a Maser 3200GT for playtime. I'm working on the latter..... and Mrs Dosh thinks it's a cracking idea!
So I suppose that on the basis of desire to buy the product, yes, I'm in there. I felt truly miffed at the way Rover were treated by BMW but ultimately the Bavarians are in business and saw a good thing under their noses.
The UK press are the masters of truism. The coverage they have given would have sunk lesser firms but I hope Rover prevail (and suspect they will). The only fly in the ointment remains the CityRover, which, given the excellent value offered by the rest of the range, is an anomaly of epic proportions.
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Mine is a No. Seriously getting borrrrring.I wont post again on rover survival..Had its day I think.At the end of the Day no one can answer. time to let it rest!!
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Steve
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I don't have much experience of recent MG Rover cars. They looked OK and many people claimed to be happy with them. But now they're dating badly and there are no serious replacements on the horizon. I agree the facelifts don't look too good - the updated Rover grille isn't that bad but the MG one is. But very few facelifted cars improve on the original - an exception being the Fiat Multipla!
I don't suppose Rover are the only manufacturer with problems.
Jaguar are struggling because the cars don't look inspiring and their real Jaguar pedigree is all but gone, save for the retro styling.
BMW trod a risky path with their flame surface styling, seen at its worst on the new one-series. Yet it seems the BMW image has bouyed them up so far.
I'm surprised that Citroen aren't floundering, with a range of Peugeot-based cars that are less attractive than their Peugeot equivalents.
cheers, Sofa Spud
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I don't suppose Rover are the only manufacturer with problems. Jaguar are struggling because the cars don't look inspiring and their real Jaguar pedigree is all but gone, save for the retro styling. I'm surprised that Citroen aren't floundering, with a range of Peugeot-based cars that are less attractive than their Peugeot equivalents.
Sofa Spud Jaguar are doing well at the moment in Europe, its only the USA where sales are poor.
I'm not sure about you comment about the look of Citroen's range, they look better than Peugeot's to me. In any case both brands are losing sales in the UK at about 10% this year.
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I thought Jaguar had just been read the riot act by Ford and that the X type was selling badly.
Citroen styling is a matter of taste - always has been! So is Peugeot's. Maybe some of the latest Peugeots blur the issue - the 307 isn't all that pretty, though it does look much better as an estate.
Cheers, SS
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I think Rover are in a no win situatiuon - like a football manager appointed as the last one was sacked, but told he has no money to buy new players.
Their products are so long in the tooth, the 25 was originally the 200 and came out in N reg IIRC? Their only new product has been the City Rover and I have only ever seen one of them on the road.
I don't think we should rejoice in their perceived failure; at the end of the day that is people's jobs that we are talking about. And, like most jobs, whether you are a good worker or not, your future is in the hands of bosses, shareholders etc.
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I think Ford want to reduce the number of factories they have, this years poor sales of Jaguar in the USA allow them to do it. The UK press hyped the poor sales for them without actually looking at the figures(UK sales are up 16% this year).
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alot of the management at halewwod is being removed.
around 120 on one single line.
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I have to agree with Mark\'s comments here.
I am getting fed up with the presumtion \"Rover\'s going to fail -let\'s all have a good laugh while it happens\".
Rover are potentially a very good producer of cars.
56 years ago after WW2, they did something radical to rekindle post war sales - they lauched the Series 1 Land Rover!
This was the ONLY alternative to the Jeep and was an instant success all over the country.
BMC and Rover BTW were never the same company until BMC and Leyland merged to become BLMC. BMC were a complete disaster that nearly took Leyland under, had it not been for government intervention.
It is time that Rover showed the same spirit of recovery and lauched a few models that people actually want to buy. I mean come on - we have a market for Mini MPVs, sit up and beg micro cars (the ones that do 28mph along country lanes), and quirky 4x4s. OK so rover could not launch a 4 x 4 and call it a land rover, they would have to think of a completely different strategy for this. However, I would think positively about buying a 4x4 from the same company that originally made the 200 tdi disco.
I say the BR have a certain duty to will this company to survive. Please don\'t scoff and laugh as we brits lose our last big car manufacturing company. Instead - lets have some serious debate as to how this car comany can be kept alive.
Rover, in return should be looking to supply cars that the public actually want - I mean even Porsche have launched a 4x4! Rover has to invest in new models. They are not leading the market, not even following it but simply doing what most of british manufacturing stopped doing 25 years ago - thinking \"if we build it then they\'ll buy it\".
H
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BTW Puppetland
In case you haven't been watching the news lately, BMW sold the Rover group (minus the new MINI) to Phoenix Manufacturing several years ago.
So if you WERE BMW and started asking for your money back you'd look pretty silly now wouldn't you :)
H
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So if you WERE BMW and started asking for your money back you'd look pretty silly now wouldn't you :)
I thought that BMW gave Phoenix a large soft loan at the time of sale. Maybe that's the money which Puppet is referring to?
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There are probably too many car manufacturers competing for the existing market, and Rover are not the only ones to be going through a tough time. Their problem is lack of money to develop new models and how to overcome the problem of a poor image, whether deserved or not. It took Skoda almost two decades and VAG expertise and cash to shake off their reputation as a joke company, and that at a time when the major economies were om a long upward spiral and people had increasing amounts of ready cash.
Rover may run out of time as people are getting nervous about their economic future, and they desperately need a wealthy buyer to bail them out. Unless they get an established car manufacturer to do this I can't see much hope of survival, as the record of non motoring conglomarates who buy into motor manufacture is not a good one.
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I say the BR have a certain duty to will this company to survive. Please don\'t scoff and laugh as we brits lose our last big car manufacturing company. Instead - lets have some serious debate as to how this car comany can be kept alive. Rover, in return should be looking to supply cars that the public actually want - I mean even Porsche have launched a 4x4! Rover has to invest in new models. They are not leading the market, not even following it but simply doing what most of british manufacturing stopped doing 25 years ago - thinking \"if we build it then they\'ll buy it\". H
I totally agree with you that it will be a shame if Rover go under. We seem to almost take delight in seeing British companies struggle like this. It didn't happen in France with Renault when they were in dire straits. Bernie Ecclestone's attitude to the British Grand Prix is another example. He should be doing all he can to keep it going instead of trying to bury it.
The way our motor industry has been allowed to drift into oblivion is appalling.
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"The way our motor industry has been allowed to drift into oblivion is appalling. "
So £hundreds of millions of Government money into BL was leaving it to sink into oblivion?
And Large Grants to Ford and Jaguar.
Dorry but that is utter ignorance of history.
The problems are:
1. we drive on the left.. in case you do not notice it most of the world drive on the right. So UK designed cars are going to be more expensive to export: lower volumes of different models.
2. The various UK governments effectively conspired to keep UK car prices 20% higher than they should be to subsidise UK manufacturers.
The impact of 2 was to delay much needed rationalistaion 20 years until it was too late.
The UK car industry has had a long and dishonourable history of overpriced badly designed and even worse built cars. To remedy that it needs:
better designs
clear value for money
100% quality ok from car no 1 of any model
and a model which screams "buy me now"
Instead we get a City Rover.
terrible design
overpriced
obviously poor vfm
poor quality
uninspired design
Say no more.
:-(
madf
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I agree with most of what you say madf; but would like to point out that the Japanese drive on the left; and their car industry is still in a relatively reasonable state.
FWIW my only direct experience of BL products was my wife's 1986 Metro, which we replaced with a Skoda Estelle - which outclassed the Metro in virtually every respect - 'nuff said.
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hello!!!
anyone tell me the cheapest new rover 25 and 45 they can find.
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I usually find that the loudest critics of MGR are those who have NEVER owned one. Strangely when those same people actually get to ride in one they like them. This has happened to us with R75's and the MGZT. I know MGR have produced some dodgy cars in the past and the CityRover is awful but give them a fair go!
As for reliability, ours have been fine. There have been a few issues here and there but no more than other cars we have had. And in some cases far less. You will always get some duffers. I could cite some real shockers that colleagues have had from Germany, France and Sweden. But I won't bore you.
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For your information I privately owned an early Cowley built Rover 75 V6 Auto which was a fine car until I came to sell it. Three years into Phoenix ownership, no Rover dealer would give me a decent price for it, nor take it off my hands, despite it having covered 30,000 miles with FSH and four new tyres. In the end I took a massive hit on the trade in price with a luxury car maker.
My father, having liked my 75, purchased a 75 estate for himself. He is very happy with but, like the rest of us, concerned as to the future of the company. He is unlikely to purchase another 75.
My father, like many other people, have always been a Rover supporter, but if he can turn his back on the brand, then less enthusiastic owners wouldn't give it a second thought. And that is just one of the many problems MGR face.
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"For your information I privately owned an early Cowley built Rover 75 V6 Auto which was a fine car until I came to sell it. "
It's still a fine car you Puppet ..... just because you didn't get back what you 'thought' you should, it doesn't make it any less a fine car.
What did you do ? Trade it in for peanuts and then start moaning about it afterwards ?
jd
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It's still a fine car you Puppet ..... just because you didn't get back what you 'thought' you should, it doesn't make it any less a fine car.
Hmm. I see your point, jd, but for many part of the definition of a "good car" is one that holds a reasonable portion of its value. Cars that depreciate vertically are simply more expensive to own and therefore their other features are judged against a higher standard.
Rover's problem is that people don't buy them new because they depreciate and the company might be gone in a few years. People don't buy them s/h because ... err.. the company might be gone in a few years, hence the depreciation. The company's prospects are uncertain because they have an old model range that not many want to buy. And the model range is old because they don't have the money, because ....err... not many buy them.
It is a circular situation for which past mistakes are to blame. Frankly, I don't know how I'd pull the company out of it; hence I am a pessimist. Whether the circle becomes a death spiral, only time will tell.
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I haven't owned a Rover, but I think it's fairest to say they have some quality products and some duffers. I have driven a few 75's as well as being a passenger in a couple, and enjoyed them all - by and large, they are very good cars. I'd choose an upper spec one over the Passat I currently run. I think I'd prefer the MG versions though, as I like a sharp ride and decent handling.
I've also driven a 25 as a courtesy car - that I didn't like, particularly as it was a bottom of the range model with either a 1.1 or a 1.2 litre engine, so was very breathless compared to what I'm used to. The interior quality wasn't particularly bad, but I felt perched on the car rather than sat in it. Having said that, it still compared favourably with my next courtesy car, a 1.2 Ibiza - what a disappointment that was. Even more underpowered and lightweight than the 25, it certainly drove no better. I liked neither of them, but I'd have to say that the 25 had an edge over the Ibiza in terms of driving experience. Maybe I just don't like superminis!
Although I'm not British and have no sentiment, national pride or whatever you call it invested in the existence/success of MG Rover, I'd be sorry to see the company go under. Plus, when you think how narrow our choices are becoming (A3/TT/Golf/Bora/Leon/Octavia, Mazda3/Focus/S40, etc), it's good to have a genuine alternative. I think that by now, they've got a good idea of how to produce a decent car with fairly sporty handling, as well as an air of quality and reasonable (above average?) reliability. I honestly think that quality control is probably sorted for more recent models (mainly the 75, I guess) and this would make me hopeful that the replacement for the 45 would be a quality car with good VFM. To succeed, it'll probably have to undercut its rivals for price as well as equipment, but that seems to have been a successful strategy for Skoda, another company with a long motoring heritage which became something of a joke.
I say give them a chance to prove themselves with that - the Cityrover is just a bad idea best ignored.
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andymc
Vroom, vroom - mmm, doughnuts ...
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'this Rover will hold it's value like no other'
Well, in a sense, he was in fact right...... technically....
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I'm not sure why anyone would actively desire MGR's demise, unless you've had a particularly awful recent ownership experience with one of their products.
Probably their only hope of remaining a mass producer was ownership by - as opposed to an 'alliance' with - one of the really big fish - Ford, GM or VAG; which would anyway have rendered their products exercises in sticking some extra chrome and Viking badges on something that, in engineering terms, was almost entirely someone elses work. Somewhat like the old partnership with Honda then.
The concept of Rover as an independent manufacturer as opposed to a brand has long since passed - and the brand has almost entirely negative connatations these days. What's left?
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spent over an hour today
no good rover deals at all.
best i can find is from arnold clark surprisingly
rover25 1.1 3 door £7k
rover 45 1.4 club £9k
i would buy a new rover 25 or 45 diesel if the price was right.
any beat these deals?
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9k for a Rover 45 1.4?
9 thousand pounds?
Sorry but I think that's where the problem is.
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Adam
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EXACTLY
how old is the citreon xsara? similar to the rover 45?
i can get a citreon xsara 1.4 for £7.3 grand new - or a diesel one for £8.2 grand brand new.
ok, its not a great car - but as good if not more reliable than a 45.
the 45 for 9 grand! so expensive.
the 45 diesel for £10,500 - what a rip off.
if it was £8.5 - bit more tempting - maybe it needs to just under cut 8 grand - rover pricing policy is awful and out of touch.
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Rover need to get the 45 replacement out. In the meantime I wonder why they don't slot the 2.0 BMW TD in the 45, that would create a tempting car during its last year or so in production.
Maybe they've thought about it but the engine is too big or something.
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So £hundreds of millions of Government money into BL was leaving it to sink into oblivion? And Large Grants to Ford and Jaguar. Dorry but that is utter ignorance of history.
Never mind all of the millions that were poured into it (I am as aware of that fact as anyone), it was still allowed to drift into oblivion through appalling management at BL and in government too. Throwing money at something doesn't necessarily put things right, another fact of life that I am aware of.
However, we as a nation seem to have a different attitude to these kind of situations, compared with France or Germany say, were there is more national pride in their motor industry.
Also the comment about the Japanese driving on the left shows that this factor is not really relevant. If it was, all the manufacturers from countries where they drive on the right, would be finding it hard to sell their cars here and the Japanese would be having a hard time in Europe and in the USA.
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just rang arnold clarks - asked for a price on a diesel 45 new.
brand new bottom of range hatch - £10,695!
04 plate with 20 k - £9,495!
when i told him my job position i got ofered a further 500 quid discount.
he said himself - ' best pick one up in a traders only auction'
he reckons if i go to the one in brighouse this week - i can get an 04 diesel for around £6.5
maybe.... will have to think about it.
my hyundai days may be over!
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some people.
and its been quite of the rover front - no news for a while.
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no news for a while.
By the standard of past news for Rover, I'd say that was good news!
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