And then what does your extra 50% buy you?
A '92 Granada estate will cost you £700. A '92 Audi 100 estate might cost you the same. Not a lot of choice in it is there?
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why for example does the new vectra have cam belt when the old model was well know for breaking up?
Maybe because IMHO belts are quieter running & cheaper & easier to replace than chains; which don't last forever either.
I don't think disintegrating cambelts causing expensive damage are unique to Vauxhall/Opel either.
Trouble was IIRC GM decided to increase the service interval on the belt system from 40 K to 80K, whilst at the same time fitting engines with idler pulleys from a second supplier which only lasted 20-30 K.
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I'm not entirely sure they have got cam belts. Vx seem to be moving over to chain driven cams on their engines with the latest models.
Regards
John S
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My missus owns a new fiesta and i am impressed with the general feel of materials inside. The doors certainly are not "tinny" in any way, in fact i was struck by how heavy they are and how solid they and the rest of the car feels.
At the end of the day all mass produced cars these days have interiors that are just a cheap plastic dash and its down to the buyer to decide if one company has "quality" plastics or not.
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Well, its a big area for debate and one could probably write a book about it.
Things have certainly changed whilst I've been in the industry. Go back to 1989 and there was a big gulf between a Ford Sierra and a Mercedes 190E. They were both fundamentally similar cars, but the build quality of the MB was undoubtedly better. There are still lots of smart G-plate 190E's about; not many Sierra's of that vintage though :-(
Mercedes and BMW both compete for the same customers and, indeed, there is a flow of knowledge between the companies as engineers swap jobs etc. They also use many of the same suppliers too. MB always had 'traditional' values of great longevity and relatively low-technology. Most MB's up until the mid-1990's used KE-Jetronic electromechanical injection and not much in the way of complex cabin electronics. BMW pushed ahead with complex electronics from the late 1980's and was keen to be seen as having a more progressive image than MB and appeal to younger customers.
In both cases, R&D was concentrated into one facility and both companies essentially produced a range of cars based on the same design; e.g. look at a W201 (190E), the W124 E-class was a more or less identical design, but bigger; the W126 was in turn a similar design, but bigger still. The same applied to BMW's range.
By keeping to the same basic design and just changing the 'scale' the manufacturers were able to refine the basic design. To some extent both companies still trade on this past reputation.
Contrast this with Ford and GM. Global companies with disparate R&D facilities and a very diverse range of cars; from v. small FWD to large US/Aus rear wheel drives and 4x4. The current Mondeo has a gasoline engine designed in Hiroshimo; body/chassis designed in Germany; engine management designed in US and so on.
Of course things have now moved on. BMW and MB both have a more diverse range of cars and MB has adopted electronics in a big way. Moreover, the use of CAD/CAM has made engineering tasks like body/chassis FEA almost trivial - complex design work can be done on a PC platform and so engineering expertise has been 'commodified' and 'almost anyone can do it' (exaggerating a bit, perhaps, but not too far from the truth).
In terms of driving experience the MB C-class and the current Mondeo are quite closely matched.
Another factor is that becasue of increasing levels of technology most manufacturers are having to 'outsource' a lot of their vehicles' content and are becoming assemblers of other people's subassemblies. In the early 1990's a car plant typically used over 2000 suppliers; that has now fallen to about 200 as increasing levels of component integration (supplying complete ready-made sub-assemblies) has become the norm. I am going to visit Kostal in a couple of weeks. Kostal make eletrical/electronic assemblies (e.g. rain sensors, power window controllers etc etc) - they sell fundamentally the same units to MB, BMW, Fiat, GM etc etc. Similarly Bosch technology is to be found on most German cars; ditto Siemens, VDO, TRW......
I suppose what I'm saying is that prestige manufacturers are finding it increasingly difficult to differentiate and put 'clear blue water' between the Ford/GM's and themselves. Increasingly I think the 'prestige' element is expressed through the 'ambience' of the vehicle - the textures and tactile qualitites of plastics, attention to minor trim details and cosmetics etc.
Whether the extra ambience is worth the extra money is up to the individual. In any free market only one supplier can be the cheapest. Everyone else has to offer something extra to justify the extra money. What's for sure is that when you buy prestige you are definitely into 'diminishing returns' - i.e. paying twice the money probably gets you are car that is, say, 10% better.
I am in the fotunate position of having a good income. I don't have to work terrifically long hours and I could go out and buy pretty well any new car that's on the market without having to borrow money. However, I work in the industry and for me cars seem rather a waste of money and certainly not something I see a lot of status in. I'd sooner buy something cheaper, but well-designed and reliable. I work a few less hours because I'm not spending so much money, and I use the extra free time with my kids and enjoy several long and relaxing holidays every year. I reckon that when I'm on my death bed that's what I'll think back on - not the fact that I once had a new 7-series parked in the garage.
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A very interesting post, thank you Dr A. One question:
In your opinion, at what point chronologically did the difference in engineering quality between the mass market and premium brands become much less significant?
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Well, I don't wish to set myself up as some sort of expert on this subject - these are just my opinions and observations.
As to when the difference became less significant is hard to say, because these things don't progress in a linear fashion and some manufacturers are better at some things than others. It also depends on what you mean by 'prestige' - was the engineering quality of a late '80's Jaguar better than that of a Ford at the time? (Ford engineers certainly didn't think so, once they'd found their way into Browns Lane!).
For example, if we go back to 1990 there is no doubt that the quality and reliability of Japanese automotive electronics was better than that of, say, BMW in Europe. In the US there are loads of late 80's, early 90's, Nissans, Toyotas, Hondas still running around without ever having had an electronic failure. Virtually all BMW's of that vintage will have had an ECU or two repaired or replaced.
Overall, though, I would say the mid-1990's was a fairly critical time. The W202 C-class had a bit of a 'wobbly' start, quality wise, and Japanese cars were improving in terms of dynamics, styling and packaging, as were Ford with the 'Phase II' Mondeo which looked nicer and was of higher quality than the earlier version.
I remember around this time I was visiting a major prestige manufacturer and their 'Vehicle Analysis' dept. (the people that take competitor cars apart) were marvelling at the quality of engineering of a Honda Accord gearbox. They also had a Toyota Camry in there and were doing comparative tests against their own product - which said a lot, I think.
When one looks at the latest Vectra, Mondeo, Avensis etc. then they really are all very fine cars and don't trail, say, a BMW 3-series by much at all. Certainly when one takes cost into account they are all excellent VFM.
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I suppose the proof of the pudding ... is which cars will somebody be collecting and cherishing in 30 years time?
As someone (Lenin?) said of the affects of the French Revolution - it's too soon to tell.
I like your death-bed scenario Aprilla. You could apply that philosophy to so much in life.
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So Aprilia, what do you drive, and why?
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Agree totally with your rationale Aprilia and am doing just that myself.
Given what you say I'd be really interested to know what the various car makers charge punters for identical components. Got any examples? Who's at the top of the mark-up tree?
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Not trying to counter the Doctor's wisdom, but I wanted to express my views. I have never owned a "prestige" brand of anything before last October. The majority of my previous cars were US made and certainly not the high end of that market either. In October I bought a well used, 9 year old BMW 520i with 132,000 miles on it. My very first drive in that car had me amazed at how well it drove, particularly when I considered the age and mileage on it. Other cars I owned which approached that age and mileage were rattly and generally showed their age.
But I am not just comparing my old BMW to old cars. At the time I bought the BMW, I had an 02 reg Mondeo with 4 days left on a week's hire. While I had two cars at my disposal, I still chose to drive the BMW, even though the smarter option would have been to put mileage on the hire car and also enjoy its greater (diesel) fuel economy. Getting out of one and into the other really showed a difference in quality *feel* and I emphasize feel as it wasn't a perception. Driving them was also a different matter. The BMW felt solid, cruised smoothly and offered motorway comfort I had previously thought was only possible in a big American saloon. The Mondeo, while not bad, just didn't offer the same feel.
How much is that "feel" worth?, I have no clue and am not too concerned about, but I have to say this. If you drive both cars and cannot honestly feel a difference in the way they feel, drive and are put together, then obviously you should buy the one which costs less and not worry about prestige nameplates.
Far too many people think that BMWs, MBs etc are bought based on badge snobbery and I wonder how many of those people have actually driven them and decided for themselves that they are no better than the less "snobbish" option. I do honestly think that alot of the "snobbery" comes from those who don't own them deciding that those who do, are snobs.
At work I get comments along the lines of "We must be paying you too much cos you have a BMW", or "Wish I could drive a BMW instead of just a Fiesta" etc etc and while I don't put too much into it I find it odd the person making the comment about my BMW and his Fiesta negelected to take into account the fact that his 03 plated Fiesta cost over 4 times as much as my N plated BMW. Yet I am the one with the "posh" car.
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And my A plate MB W123 which cost me £400 including a full tank & 6 months tax & 5 nearly new tyres is far & away the nicest machine I have ever driven. For looks & style, it always brought a big smile to my face when I walked past it on the streets. For comfort. For motorway cruising it was just incredible. And for 30mpg.
Choice between a new Vectra, new Megane, new Legacy (other cars I've driven recently), or the 123 - no choice at all, sorry.
And as for taking it to pieces, as I've banged on previously, it was a delight to work on.
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And my A plate MB W123 which cost me £400 including a full tank & 6 months tax & 5 nearly new tyres is far & away the nicest machine I have ever driven. For looks & style, it always brought a big smile to my face when I walked past it on the streets. For comfort. For motorway cruising it was just incredible. And for 30mpg. Choice between a new Vectra, new Megane, new Legacy (other cars I've driven recently), or the 123 - no choice at all, sorry. And as for taking it to pieces, as I've banged on previously, it was a delight to work on.
I quite agree that the W123 are a marvellous old machine. If you get a good rust free one they are a great pleasure to own and you can fix them easily with a knife and fork (or at least a set of metric spanners). I believe that, incredibly, some are still doing duty as taxis in Germany - I last had a taxi ride in one in Mainz in 1998. There must be loads in the Middle East and Africa still toiling away in arduous conditions.
However, MB could not manufacture such a car today. It would not meet safety and emissions legislation and would probably be prohibitively expensive to produce. Moreover, although they are 'nice' to drive that *is* a very subjective thing. The ride and certainly the handling would not be a match for most modern cars - let's not get on to the brakes or the fuel economy and emissions!
What the original question was really about is whether a modern prestige brand is really worth the premium over a middle-market car. You really need to be comparing a new C-class against the new Subaru Legacy you recently drove.
As to the poster with the 9-year-old BMW. Well, I have to say each to his own. The E34 5-series was never one of my favourites. My friend who runs a small service shop has sent me a lot of these over about the last 5-6 years to repair the instrument panel and/or CCU (the electrolytic capacitors fail in the panel and the CCU's suffer various dry joints, fractures etc. - I have 'pukka' soldering kit and test gear).
Your E34 may be a particularly well looked after example. I have driven a few with over 100k miles that were certainly the worse for wear. Most common is that the suspension feels 'clapped out' - rear bushes wear as does front lower control arm. When that's a bit worn you hit a bump or drain cover and the car does a dance - it can be quite disconcerting - amazingly quite a few seem to pass the MoT like this. I believe there are uprated polypropelene bushes available. I also don't like the autobox they fitted to those cars - if they go wrong they seem to be terminal - no one seems able to rebuild them to last. The 520's are not too bad engine wise, but the 518 was a dog and every one I've seen has been worn out (probably as a result of its sales-rep first owner thashing it within an inch of its life!).
As to what I drive - well, we have four cars at the moment. A 1990 MB 190E owned from almost new. A 1998 Nissan Primera 2.0i (wife's car) owned from almost new ('ex-demo'). 2000 MB C-class and 1998 Nissan QX (owned for 18 months). Prior to the QX I had a BMW 7 series E38 - bought it at a couple of years old (previously owned by a well-known TV executive and had been well looked after). A vastly overrated car that met with an untimely demise at the hands of an ill-trained BMW technician (a long story).
Being in the car industry and travelling to Germany a lot I do get to drive a lot of 'loaners' - mostly BMW or MB, sometimes Vectras or Mondeos. I usually have an auto (easier when driving LHD and you're not too sure of the city!). Last week I was in Germany and rather a nice new E-class - good car, so long as someone else is picking up the bill! Time before that I had an Astra convertable automatic of all things - rather noisy and it rained all the time so I never got to drop the roof.
Having been involved in the car business almost from birth (my father and grandfather ran their own independent garages) I've driven most things from A35 vans, through Hillman Imp, Rover 3500, Alfas and Citroens of various types, some of the first Datsuns and Toyotas that came into the UK (anyone remember the Toyota 1000 or the Datsun Cherry!), Mazda RX3 and RX4, Toyota Crown 'SuperSaloon with Toyoglide Transmission' they had a fridge in the boot as standard - I'd love to find a good one now LOL!, loads of old MB's and BMW's. MB W126 S-Class remains a firm favourite - still the transport of choice for despotic dictators everywhere!
The only cars I've not had much to do with have been Renaults and Fiats - mainly because when I worked with my father he wouldn't sell or service them on the grounds that he didn't like having to deal with irate customers! (i.e. they were more trouble than they were worth).
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Aprilia, is your QX a 3ltr?
My mother needs a new car. Presently she drives an old 94 Volvo 850 T5 auto. The car passed an MOT test this week, but i am concerned it will start to become unreliable and expensive. Despite only 75k miles, the top end rattles, and the turbo sounds noisy to me. Doesnt use any oil, unless its driven hard. Air-con is also on its last legs. It stopped working so i called a mobile guy round, he refilled the system and added some form of sealant and it has be ok since. However, he beleive the leak to be behind the dash, requiring the whole lot to be removed it the fault was to be reapired properly- ie very expensive and not worth doing.
She wants something big (safety is important to her), comfortable, automatic, with climate control. She does not do a lot of miles, and doesnt mind paying for fuel, so economy is not an important consideration, and she like good straight line performance.
I have suggested the following:
Nissan QX 3ltr
Toyota Camry 3lte
W124 320E 24v (i like them, not the sensible choice)
I tracked down a decent qx sel 3ltr at a BCA auction. Unforunately mother changed her mind that morning and pulled out as she did not want a red car! I thought it was great; a 97P with 46k, 7 stamps in the book, good condition, sold for 3100.
Does anyone have an experience with the newer model QX, the Maxima QX? I thought perhaps this would fit the bill perfectly (if i can find one!) My old 2002 what car magasine give it 1/5 poor. I will have to drive on if i can find one and compare it with the E39 BMW we have.
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'What the original question was really about is whether a modern prestige brand is really worth the premium over a middle-market car. You really need to be comparing a new C-class against the new Subaru Legacy you recently drove.'
I suppose I was comparing 20 year old technology against new technology - do you think that was unfair?!
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'I believe that, incredibly, some [W123s] are still doing duty as taxis in Germany'
Recent reported sighting of a 230TE doing service in Dorking. Croatia is apparently stuffed full of W123 taxis, and even the odd W115 is still doing duty there.
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