The discussion re "no car" lanes has sparked an interesting conundrum - when is a four wheeled vehicle a "car" and when is it not a "car"?
Now, clearly there are variants on the car such as coupe, cabrio, SUV etc and I'm not intending to address that, but it seems to me that there is a potential for confusion and that this could be significant.
For example, emergency vehicles are quite rightly exempt from most regulations. Paramedics often operate from large or modified estates. So what if a member of my family needs urgent medical help and I drive them to hospital in my (otherwise) identical large estate vehicle? Is it still a car or has it become an ambulance?
Taxis are exempt from bus lane regulations. Now, if I give my father-in-law a lift and he offers to cover the petrol cost, am I now driving a taxi? Clearly not - it is a private arrangement and I'm not offering a service to the general public. But what if it gets around that I'm helpful (don't laugh) and lots of people ask & I oblige? Am I a taxi yet? This one is more relevant than you might think, as my local resident's association lists people who are free to give lifts if needed. Are their cars taxis?
The defining issue seems to that of intention - but should only the intention at the date of registration matter? If there is a good case for exempting a vehicle from a particular regulation, and that case applies at the present moment, should it matter whether the case existed at an arbitrary point in the past?
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'...my (otherwise) identical large estate vehicle...' Sorry, Patently, but since when has a Porsche been an estate car, or indeed anything but a status symbol. Not sure it's even a car...
Now if you wish to drive a second hand Routemaster so that you can use the bus lanes, then I'm not going to stop you!
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Hello mapmaker.
I was speaking hypothetically.... and the 911 is not for everyday use anyway.
But what if I did buy a s/h bus for private use? Or perhaps a taxi - as did Stephen Fry and Terry Waite, IIRC. What then? It would seem that I could use bus lanes. Why should I be able to use bus lanes in my private vehicle that used to be a taxi, when I can't do so when carrying my injured child/wife/other relative because the vehicle that I am today using as an ambulance used to be a private car?
Hypothetically, still.....
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Your Porsche becomes a taxi not when you accept money from a passenger but when you register, tax, test and plate it as such. I imagine the same would apply to ambulances etc.
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So form overrules substance?
Understandable for taxis, but less so for ambulances, perhaps?
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Does this help P :-
The Bus Lane will have been brought in by Order made by Local Authority.
Within the Order will be the teminology of vehicles allowed/excluded.
IIRC Bus Orders come from the parent authority of Road Traffic Regulation Act/Road Traffic Act so one would need to go what that Act defines motor car as....
DVD
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"So form overrules substance?"
I would say so, I have yet to read or hear of anything which states that an ambulance must be capable of carrying a patient in a supine position so yes, your Porsche could be used as an ambulance. I imagine it would have to be legally registered as such if you wanted to exceed posted speed limits and display blue lights etc. When I worked as an EMT years ago, our shift supervisors drove Ford explorers that were marked as Ambulances, but were not equipped to carry a stretcher.
A quick look on dictionary.com turned up this:
am·bu·lance ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mby-lns)
n.
A specially equipped vehicle used to transport the sick or injured
Nothing at all about size or shape of said vehicle, but I will concede that the dictionary does not dictate local laws etc.
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Is an ex-ambulance still an ambulance? Likewise taxi, bus, fire-engine, etc?
I recall an argument I had years ago with the Dartford Tunnel operators, concerning the rate applicable to my then LandRover. After a lengthy correspondence about construction and use, sidewindows, etc, they finally said that it was the use alone that decided whether something was a commercial vehicle or not. So in their eyes a car driven by someone taking some paperwork home from the office was a commercial vehicle, but a builder's van being used on a bank holiday outing to the seaside was not.
Having finally manoeuvered themselves into reaching this nonsensical and unenforceable ruling, they then sent me a refund of 20p!
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Well done, CP!
Part of my motivation for asking flows from the occasion many years ago when I was taking SWMBO to hospital, in labour with our first (yes, the oldest one in the book, I know). We lived had to get to Hemel Hempstead hospital via the M1 and as I drove down the slip road I could see three solid lines of traffic.
Miraculously, these evaporated to let me through. However, I had by then decided that as the contractions were down to 4 minutes apart, if necessary I was going to have to hit the hazard lights and use the hard shoulder, pushing in as neceesary.
Dartford's approach seems to suggest that I could do so. I'm not sure others would take the same view.
The little patently would have been worth the fine, though..... [big parental smile]
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'I imagine [the Porsche] would have to be legally registered as such if you wanted to exceed posted speed limits and display blue lights etc.'
Funny, I thought all Porsches had this right... or is it only BMWs...
Mrs P expecting another one?
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No no no mapmaker.
Porsches are the only ones that can ignore speed limits, but they cannot display blue lights.
BMWs can do neither but do have exclusive permission to use the outside lane.
Blue lights can only be displayed on Citroen Saxos, in LED form.
Seriously though, the good Mrs P seems content with the current brood but one always worries that an urgent run to the hospital might be needed. I have to say that if then forced to choose between £60 and 3 points on the one hand and waiting 30-40 mins for an ambulance on the other, it might be an easy choice to make.
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"So in their eyes a car driven by someone taking some paperwork home from the office was a commercial vehicle, but a builder's van being used on a bank holiday outing to the seaside was not."
Those eyes are obviously not the same as those of the local council recycling station. I was put through the ringer because I showed up in a hired Transit with the contents of my cleared out garage. Their claim was that vans needed special permission as that location was not for commercial waste. My argument that the van was not a commercial vehicle (was hired by me for private use)and that I was not transporting commercial waste. There was a Vauxhall MPV (don't know which one) already there and I asked why they let it through and asked if the Transit had windows and rear seats would it cease to be a commercial vehicle and the waste suddenly become private.
They didn't have an answer, but the site manager probably got tired of me and said I could empty the van, but not to return with it again.
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Had a similar problem disposing of my old freezer. The local recycling centre refused to let me in as I was in a van, so it "must be trade waste".
I pointed to the logo on the side of the van (Liverpool Victoria - I had borrowed it for the morning) and asked the chap how long LV had been in the frozen food storage business. He refused to budge, so I went home, picked up the paperwork for the new freezer and returned to the site. I was begrudgingly allowed in but told I should have brought the freezer down in my car.
Now I'm not sure what car he drives, but has anyone here managed to get a 6' chestfreezer in their car without breaking it? (The car, not the freezer).
The problem seems to stem from each "Authority" (and I use the term in its loosest possible sense) defining new parameters and definitions to suit that week's agenda.
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