Insurance When Keys Stolen

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Wed 31 Mar 2004 15:10
Insurance When Keys Stolen - pdc {P}
I know that a few board members have experience of working in the insurance industry and I also know that each situation is different, but I would like your thoughts on the following.

On Monday night a friend was visiting a friend in Blackpool. When she got up in the morning she discovered that her 9 month old 206cc had been stolen. The thieves had broken into the house and taken the keys, and nothing else. The police told her that the thieves would have just been after the car and nothing else.

Obviously this has inconvenienced her no end, but her policy states that if the car is stolen / written off before it is 1 year old, she will get a new replacement, so long as the car is not recovered within 2 weeks.

The spanner in the works is the fact that the keys were taken. They have told her that they will now investigate before deciding whether or not they will allow a claim to go ahead. The thing that is bothering her is that the husband of the friend had left the back door unlocked, but closed. The police know this, and she gave the insurance company the whole story.

I guess the question that I wish to ask is, do you think that she is going to have a fight on her hands to get the insurance company to pay up, given that the back door to the house was left unlocked.
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Wed 31 Mar 2004 15:17
Insurance When Keys Stolen - pdc {P}
Blimey, hadn't noticed smokies post. Not a good week for 206 owners eh!
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Wed 31 Mar 2004 15:27
Insurance When Keys Stolen - NowWheels
When I was akid, my dad always told me that our house insurance wouldn't cover us for anything stolen if the door wasn't locked -- if entry had not been forced any theft was larceny, not burglary. This was his way of reminding me of the importance of locking the door.

Not sure if it was accurate then, let alone still accurate, but perhaps the distinction might be relevant.
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Wed 31 Mar 2004 15:40
Insurance When Keys Stolen - pdc {P}
This isn't a question about claiming against house insurance though. The keys to the car were taken from a table inside a house. Maybe the thieves would have passed on by if the backdoor had been locked, then again they may have broken in had that been the case.

I would imagine that had there been a forced break in that the insurance company would pretty much have to pay up, but given that the entry wasn't forced, what view would they take? Would appear that in Smokies fathers case that they are happy to pay up even though the keys were left in a jacket pocket in a public place. Was my friend negligent in not checking that all the doors and windows were locked at her friends house?

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Wed 31 Mar 2004 15:52
Insurance When Keys Stolen - daveyjp
Were the keys stolen at a time when you would expect the back door to be locked i.e in the middle of the night when everyone was in bed, or was it during a time when people were in the house, but awake and in a different room?
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Wed 31 Mar 2004 15:55
Insurance When Keys Stolen - pdc {P}
During the night, when friend expected the doors to be locked.
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Wed 31 Mar 2004 16:43
Insurance When Keys Stolen - RichardW
Oooooh that REALLY annoys me! It's MY house, Johnny scroat has no right to be there whether or not he has to bust the door to get in or not. Weasel insurance companies. Grrrrr. I think my insurance says that you can leave slept in bedroom windows open, and the main exit door (or something) - big deal.

I agree that in Smokie's case they might have trouble with the insurance co as a jacket pocket in a public changing room is not really 'reasonable care'......

Oh, and since when was offering half retail price for a written off car 'reasonable care'?

Rant off...

Not much help to the original thread, but makes me feel better!


--
RichardW

Is it illogical? It must be Citroen....
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Wed 31 Mar 2004 17:17
Insurance When Keys Stolen - was8v
Similar thing happened to my mum a while back, some scroat walked into her workplace in the middle of the day, opened a cupboard in the staff room, stole her handbag (with car keys), walked out and were seen driving off.

I don't think she had any probs with the insurance, maybe because the scroat was seen driving off. The investigation is probably just to make sure you havent stolen the car yourself!
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Wed 31 Mar 2004 18:08
Insurance When Keys Stolen - Canon Fodder
her policy states that if the car is stolen / written off before it is 1 year old, she will get a new replacement, so long as the car is not recovered within 2 weeks.

The spanner in the works is the fact that the keys were taken

But surely the car was still stolen, regardless if the theives had the keys. They took it without permission - that's stealing.

If your friend had been negligent with the keys, or had left the car unlocked then the claim might be denied, but in this case the crooks broke in, stole the keys and then used the keys to steal the car.

I reckon she'll be fine.

CF
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Wed 31 Mar 2004 18:38
Insurance When Keys Stolen - Andrew-T
CF - if the thieves entered the house by the unlocked door, they didn't 'break in'. My guess is that any insurance company will at least begin by suggesting that inadequate steps had been taken to prevent theft of the key. After all, things taken from an unlocked car aren't usually recoverable, are they?
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Wed 31 Mar 2004 18:51
Insurance When Keys Stolen - Canon Fodder
Andrew - sorry I only read as far as....The thieves had broken into the house and taken the keys,...having read the whole post you may be right, but I'm not sure - after all it was someone elses house - they were negligent not PDC's friend?

CF
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Wed 31 Mar 2004 19:09
Insurance When Keys Stolen - Sooty Tailpipes
They could sue the person who left the door unlocked, and they would probably be covered by their house insurance's legal cover for civil disputes......(if all else fails)
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Thu 1 Apr 2004 14:14
Insurance When Keys Stolen - reynolds
I would have thought leaving the door open would be classed as gross negligence i.e. a very high level of ignorance/stupidity. I would have thought in this case they could refuse the claim. I know they refuse claims when people leave the keys in the ignition at a petrol garage for example. Most insurance claims are rejected where force has not been used in the act of the theft the policyholder alleges.

Good luck anyway
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Thu 1 Apr 2004 14:38
Insurance When Keys Stolen - pdc {P}
Backdoor was closed, but not locked, and was the negligence of home owner, not guest.

My point is, are you negligent if you assume that the householder of the house in which you are a guest will lock all doors and windows before going to bed?

They haven't yet said that they won't pay, but my friend is worried that she is going to have a fight on her hands.
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Thu 1 Apr 2004 16:50
Insurance When Keys Stolen - frostbite
Don't know if this counts for anything, but ISTR that doors etc. do not have to be locked for unauthorised entry to qualify as 'breaking and entering'.
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Thu 1 Apr 2004 20:06
Insurance When Keys Stolen - Simon
Something else to think about though, to do with insurance and negligence. What about the masses of people who are daft enough to drive through the deep flood water when we have some heavy rain who subsequently ruin their engines because they have sucked in a load of water? I know that a lot of them have successfully claimed on their car insurance for the cost of the repairs even though in my opinion it is through their own stupidity and negligence that the damage has been done. (Sorry if anyone takes offence to my opinion).
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Thu 1 Apr 2004 21:51
Insurance When Keys Stolen - BazzaBear {P}
I think someone answered a similar query quite well a month or so back: if there was an exclusion in insurance for negligence or stupidity, the insurance companies would be able to argue absolutely every claim ever made.
Any accident that occurs can be blamed on someones mistake to some extent, it would leave you with no meaningful insurance at all.
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Thu 1 Apr 2004 22:11
Insurance When Keys Stolen - Marcos{P}
A freind at work had his car, his Mum's Audi TT and his dad's Merc all stolen off their drive one night.
The thieves had apparently used a complex system of fishing rods etc to hook the keys from where they hung and nick the cars. The police said it must had been someone who had already seen where the keys were hung etc.
Two years later they have had no payout as the insurance company are stating the keys were left on display and not securely hidden.
Why do we bother paying huge amounts for car insurance?
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Mon 5 Apr 2004 09:34
Insurance When Keys Stolen - pdc {P}
Well we will never know what the outcome would have been because the police recovered the car on Friday, just 2 miles from where it was taken from. The thieves had even locked the doors. There wasn't a single mark on the car, and they only things the took were a few CDs. a parking ticket, and babys car seat.

Is with forensics now.

This is the first stolen car that I have ever heard of being recovered without it having been written off.
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Mon 5 Apr 2004 10:23
Insurance When Keys Stolen - davemar
I once had my car keys stolen from a house brake-in (they were in my coat pocket hanging in the hallway). They managed to move the car about 100 metres round the corner and left it there. Nothing was taken from the car at all, it was totally intact and the keys were left on the seat. I not sure whether they actually worked out how to start the car (I always had to show mechanics how to use the immobilisor) and just pushed it there; or whether they couldn't get it into reverse (it was a cul-de-sac). Needless to say I was rather relieved!
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Mon 5 Apr 2004 11:05
Insurance When Keys Stolen - Chad.R
Well we will never know what the outcome would have been
because the police recovered the car on Friday, just 2 miles
from where it was taken from. The thieves had even locked
the doors. There wasn't a single mark on the car, and
they only things the took were a few CDs. a parking
ticket, and babys car seat.


Glad to hear that the car is back with it's proper owner and undamaged, it must be a relief to all concerned.
I'm puzzled why the thieves would take a parking ticket though?

Chad.
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Mon 5 Apr 2004 13:40
Insurance When Keys Stolen - pdc {P}
Glad to hear that the car is back with it's proper
owner and undamaged, it must be a relief to all concerned.
I'm puzzled why the thieves would take a parking ticket though?


They just emtied the glove box, which included a pair of worn tights that friend had shoved in there !!!!
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Mon 5 Apr 2004 11:12
Insurance When Keys Stolen - Dynamic Dave
The thieves had even locked the doors.


But did they leave the keys? Might be worth asking the insurance company to have the locks and imobiliser (if a chip is fitted in the key) changed as the thieves might be back in the future with the same keys, or a copy of the keys.
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Mon 5 Apr 2004 13:41
Insurance When Keys Stolen - pdc {P}
Insurance Co want the car straight after police so that they can check it over and change locks etc. Have even extended the 48 hour courtesy car cover now until friend gets the car back. Suppose they are relieved at not having to spend £18k on a replacement.
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Mon 5 Apr 2004 17:59
Insurance When Keys Stolen - GrumpyOldGit
My bike insurance has a clause that says they will not pay out if the bike is taken using the keys. imo that's becuase of there being so much fraud. Give your mate your car keys, he gets rid of the car, you claim on the insurance and split the proceeds with him.
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Thu 28 Mar 2013 03:22
Insurance When Keys Stolen - vmturbo

Most insurance fraud is IMHO actually carried-out by insurance companies! For example I was talking to a locksmith who told me a horror story about an electrical retailers store-room being burgled and £20,000 worth of goods taken. AFAIK the locks (which were of high quality) were not attacked. Presumably they came in through the roof or through a wall.

Even though the locks were not attacked the insurance claim was rejected "Because the locks did not have the British Standard Kitemark". The begs the question "Are the Kitemarked locks the only ones in the entire world that are any good?" Of course not and if had been my store-room I would have sued.

Other insurance fraud is to do with No Claims Bonus. For example a yachtsman with full British NCB sold-up and sailed to Australia. He and his wife lodged with relatives and he bought a car. His British NCB was honoured in Australia and there were no accidents. He earned NCB in Australia. On his return to UK he discovered that his NCB entitlement was now zero! "What about my Australian NCB?" he asked. Their answer was "Queensland Insurance are not a multi national company therefore we cannot accept their proof of NCB."

Does this mean that telephones, Internet and fax machines are not able to contact Australia? SCAM SCAM SCAM! The bloke had to start his NCB again from scratch and all he could afford to insure was a Ford Ka 1.3

IMHO welching on a persons NCB entitlement is on a par with robbing them.

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Thu 28 Mar 2013 07:47
Insurance When Keys Stolen - skidpan

Even though the locks were not attacked the insurance claim was rejected "Because the locks did not have the British Standard Kitemark".

When I get insurance quotes for the house one of the questions is always "are the locks on your doors to British Standard". If they are say yes and you get a very small discount, if they are not say no.

If you lie any claim will be rejected regardless of the locks being involved or not.

Not telling the truth on a proposal form or on-line is a sure way to find yourself without insurance when yo most need it.

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Thu 28 Mar 2013 10:11
Insurance When Keys Stolen - Andrew-T

IMHO welching on a persons NCB entitlement is on a par with robbing them.

Ombudsman? That may not work, but my personal experience suggests that sometimes the threat is enough.

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