(Thread moved from Technical Matters)
an awful lot of VW cars with problems in the Technical Matters forum ? If only everything in life was as reliable as a Japanese car :-)
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If you're selling way above average volumes of vehicles, and your complaints are a bit below average volumes....
YES,
I could be biased, as they pay my way...
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Can't really make judgements by looking at the number of posts here, but reliability surveys clearly show that VW group cars are slipping in the reliability tables, whilst Japs continue to dominate.
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Is it perception? VW's hav a reputation of being bullet proof like japanese cars. This means any problems are unexpected, and pee off the owners. This is bourne out by the recent top gear survey, which showed the best golf was a skoda, best sharan a seat, and best polo again a skoda (or seat)!
That said, my 2001 polo is not quite what I expected....
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There was a recent Which? publication which focussed on the declining reliability of German marques - it is not just a 'perceptions' issue. Moreover many dealer have sought to recover reduced profits on new car sales by sharply increasing servicing costs. At some point the customer starts to squeal.
My own view (working in the industry) is that about 30-40% of the value of a modern car is in the electronics and associated sensor systems. The quality of Japanese electronics continues to leave the Europeans behind (witness the VW coil pack and MAF gremlins), and the gap is widening. This is where the problem is.
It is not just that the German brands are becoming less reliable, its also that the Japanese are getting better. This is particularly true at the top end (Lexus, Infiniti, Accura etc.) where the Japanese haven't yet really made a big push into Europe. It they do (and this is what BMW/MB are worried about) then it could have a major impact the the German car industry.
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the problem is often not helped by the superior "we know it all" attitude of some dealers and the "take it or leave it" attitude they have..
madf
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Aprilla....
When my BMW 318i air mass sensor packed up after only 40,000 kms I received no sympathy from the dealer, this was after the climate control unit was replaced only six months earlier(at BMW's expense). I queried the relaibility of the sensor and the dealer said it was due to the heat and humidity of Abu Dhabi.
Speaking to some arab friends who drive MB and BMw as well as Lexus all say that they Lexus has superior reliability. The BMw dealer suggested that Jap electronics are simpler than german electronics and therefore more reliable...what a load of crap...
By the way I work for a major investment fund and we frequently speak to top management of European car co's..next question to ask VW...why is 30% of your factory space dedicated to rectifying production line faults.....
Rgds.....
Rgds...
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Aprilla I forgot to mention that the same BMw dealer mentioed to me that the new 7 series is so complex that it is curently receiving software upgrades on a monthly basis...
Rgds...
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Kal
I do some consultancy work for BMW (Germany) and am aware of a variety of 'issues', including software 'issues'. A problem that they have is that a lot of the electronics and software is being developed by external companies - so they are not masters of their own destiny. Outsourcing (of a kind) strikes again!!
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Hi Kal,
That is a superb question to ask......
I study manufacturing techniques as a hobby as I'm a bit of an industrial historian in my spare time (odd hobby I know)but it's always fascinated me. I've been saying for years that I'm surprised German cars have the reputation for reliability as their production techniques quite frankly are stuck in the 1960s with 'finessing' occuring after production. It's a very old-fashioned method of working.
The Japanese 'Kaizen' methods of stopping production lines and empowering the line workers to report faults immediately is infinitely a more quality approach with lower final faults.
And it's proved in the final results.
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I don't doubt what 3500S and everyone else is saying here, but if German producton techniques are stuck in the 1960s, why didn't this show until the '90s?
In say this because my impression of Mercedes' 1980s cars is that they were beautifully crafted. This is backed up by mega mileages of the 'three box' styled Mercs, as well as HJ's comments on the CBC breakdown.
My impression is that it wasn't until the late 80's that the Japanese defeated rust and caught up with the best German cars in terms of reliability - am I mistaken?
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I think you're mistaken about the Japanese not catching up with reliability until the 1980's. From the 60's on IIRC, most Jap cars have been much more reliable than most european makes and at least as good as the best. You're right about the rust though....
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Let's keep it in proportion; the German's are a very smart race of people and still produce better cars than most of the rest of the world. They still *make things* and are not reliant on call centres and McDonalds to prop up their economy (the trade deficit between UK and Germany averages over £1bn a month, I believe!!). The problem is that the marketing people have got a little 'ahead of themselves' and reputation outstrips reality.
I work in Germany a fair bit and ironically the Germans are much more realistic about their products than we are. Problems are highlighted by their press and the manufacturers take quite a hammering at times. The Germans are also (IME) a lot less snobbish about cars and so the 'image issue' is less of a factor over there - their approach is a bit more pragmatic.
Interesting one sees a growing number of Japanese cars on German roads and, horror of horrors, quite a few Japanese cars used as taxis!
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Why 'horror of horrors'?
If as you say the germans are less snobbish about cars and more realistic - wouldn't it make sense to purchase japanese cars to
use as taxis.
IMHO would seem to me you haven't quite got the german mindset?
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No, maybe not....
It a bit odd to travel to BMW FIZ in Munich and arrive in a Toyota airport taxi though! Especially when you know how patriotic about Bavaria the Bavarians are (they don't consider themselves 'German').
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I agree - Muncheners are nothing if not proud of their city, mind you they've got good reason too.
I'm going back in March for another crack at the Deutsches Museum which is just superb.
Taxi operators tend to be mainly of Turkish extraction, maybe they're a little more pragmatic than patriotic.
Still a lot of BM/Merc taxis though.
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This thread is going across to Discussion later today.
Mark.
(done)
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Munich is definately the best place to be at Christmas, it's just so beautiful. The annual conference I used to attend there in December is the one thing I miss most about no longer working for Siemens.
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.. Taxi operators tend to be mainly of Turkish extraction, maybe they're a little more pragmatic than patriotic. .. >>
There now seem to be an increasing number of Sri-Lanka Tamil regufees who are operating taxis, and they are tending to choose the Japanese cars.
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