Confused - second hand diesel or petrol estate | Motoring discussion | Back Room Forum

Tue 21 Feb 2017 10:09

Confused - second hand diesel or petrol estate - Julie Adams

I'm confusing myself now. I think I need a diesel due to the mileage I travel to work, 62 miles round trip daily 75% of which is dual carriageway and motorway. I'm now worried about DPF and how it's been driven previously obviously affects that. It has to be an estate because I have dogs and it has to be reliable because I can't have a car that's in the garage every five minutes as this would not only cost money but result in time off work. I currently get an average of 60 mpg from my 03 astra estate and if I drive carefully can squeeze that up to 65 mpg.. I'm primarily looking at the ceed 1.6 cdri but have also had a look for petrol versions of the same car. According to HJ the quoted mpg for the ceed is not even close to the reality although these figures obviously depend on how the car is driven. If I use these figures as a benchmark the petrol version will cost approx £7 a week more in fuel so I'm still leaning towards the diesel. Cruise control would be nice as I have worn cartilage in my right knee, I also drive for a living so the less stress I put on it the better and obviously this too would affect fuel economy.

So now I'm looking for other suggestions apart from the ceed. I'm hoping to trade in the astra although it obviously won't be worth much. Budget is £5000, may be able to squeeze another couple of hundred onto that. Seat Leon has just been mentioned on my other thread but seems to be well oup of my process range. so far we have

KIA ceed 1.6crdi estate

KIA ceed 1.6 estate

Astra 1.7 cdti Sri (stick to what I know)

Edited by Julie Adams on 21/02/2017 at 10:17

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Tue 21 Feb 2017 10:31

Confused - second hand diesel or petrol estate - skidpan

Why not start another thread asking the same question.

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Tue 21 Feb 2017 13:27

Confused - second hand diesel or petrol estate - Julie Adams

Sorry. I didn't realise I'd actually done that. I'm not great with forums. Can this be linked into the original? :-/

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Tue 21 Feb 2017 10:57

Confused - second hand diesel or petrol estate - SLO76

The Cee'd didn't have a DPF until early 2011 but the petrol model is only going to be approximately £350 a year worse on fuel yet you'll get a younger lower mileage and thus less in the way of problems. You may even be able to stretch to the much improved newer model which will (if it has a full Kia service history) still have some of the excellent manufacturer 7yr warranty left which is well worth paying a bit extra for. Auto Trader #DrivenByMe
www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/20170203194...6

I'm not sure exactly when in 2011 the Diesel received a DPF but if you can find a late non-DPF car with full history again it will have some warranty left. Just remember though, no matter what the salesperson tells you it is almost impossible to claim on that warranty without a full Kia service history so regard it as void if the car hasn't got it.

The Astra is a good bet with the 1.7 Isuzu diesel but avoid at all costs the three Fiat diesels 1.3/1.9 & 2.0 all of which can be trouble. But DPF issues are common on all of them sadly. The Isuzu engine itself is fit for massive mileages and DMF problems are relatively rare.

Edited by SLO76 on 21/02/2017 at 11:01

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Tue 21 Feb 2017 11:05

Confused - second hand diesel or petrol estate - heartattakjoe

i find with cruise control the car uses a lot less fuel unless going uphill as it will try to hold the speed.

kia is a strong brand afaik and with your motorwat driving you shouldn't get much ash buildup in the diesels dpf, just let it rev over 2k for a bit of the journey should burn it off.

when you test drive the diesel, find a clear road and floor it once engine is hot to let the revs climb up, watch the rearview for black smoke that is usually ash from the cat/dpf burning off.

you can always get it cleaned out (dont use additives in fuel) my wife had hers done as she made short trips all the time and the car would go into limp mode with dpf warning light on. when parked and engine off, the sound from the regeneration would run for ages (first sign of blocked dpf next to black smoke) local garage took it off soaked it in some cleaning agent for dpf's and pressure washed the ash out. cheaper than a replacement by more than half, but we were going to sell the car shortly afterward anyway so didn't warrant a change. regardless, dpf problems were gone and can be kept under control by your daily driving anyway

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Tue 21 Feb 2017 11:17

Confused - second hand diesel or petrol estate - skidpan

I'm not sure exactly when in 2011 the Diesel received a DPF

I am, ours was the first to arrive at our dealers, mid September 2010. All deliveries into the UK from this time were MY11 cars and had a DPF fitted but there was some dealer stock of MY10 cars and some CRDi's were sold without DPF's right to the end of December.

Our local dealer had one remaining and had to pre reg it. It was a car he had in July when we ordered and although it was the correct model and he was willing to give a good discount it was a colour we have vowed never to have again, dark metallic red. Looks great when new in the showroom but looks s***e for the rest of its life. Obviously we were not the only buyers with that prefference.

just let it rev over 2k for a bit of the journey should burn it off.

Nonsense. A car will only carry out a refgen when the ECU tells it to. Revving the car like this will simply waste fuel and create more soot particles.

when you test drive the diesel, find a clear road and floor it once engine is hot to let the revs climb up, watch the rearview for black smoke that is usually ash from the cat/dpf burning off.

To burn off the soot the DPF needs to reach a temp of 600 degrees, that is what a regen does. Flooring the throttle will do nothing to help. Back in the days of Euro 3 and before you got loads of smoke when you floored it but not these days unless the car has been doctored or is knackered.

If you have a dpf simply drive normally but try to learn when a regen is happening and avoid switching the engine off. Both our dpf cars would do regens at urban speed, no loads of revs or mega speed needed.

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Tue 21 Feb 2017 12:00

Confused - second hand diesel or petrol estate - gordonbennet

To be honest most of us are wary of suggesting anyone should buy a used Diesel with DPF, especially where the budget might mean teh car is heading to its time when the DPF itself might, despite a history of perfect use and perfect regens, need professional cleaning or replacement.

As an aside i wonder how cheaper non genuine DPF's are working out for people.

You've been given the latest registration dates you could buy a Ceed 1.6 Diesel estate above, and i have no doubt the posters above could also tell you how to tell if the car has a DPF or not before you travel to look at it.

A pre DPF Ceed is probably one of the newest Diesel cars you could buy that we could reasonably recommend, for bonus points it didn't have a DMF either, winner.

As always with any car, do your homework, check out the MOT history online and do crawl unerneath and inspect the subframes, whilst the bodies are well protected underside (i delivered these by the hundred when they first came out and was impressed by what i saw underneath) the subframes can like many other cars rust out of the previous owners were neglectful.

The problems with underbody rust are exacerbated IMHO by cars which found their way onto rental fleets when new, these like many other cars of the type did, what happened (may still be case) is that rental cars get lots of miles quickly, so when defleeted they often stand for several months, both to even the miles out and to sensibly not have a glut of one particular model in the market.

The results for the buyer are pot luck, if a car is used during a winter and gets defleeted in March say, it might then stand for 4 or more months with the winter salt baking into the undersides, brakes in particular suffer but so do chassis and subframes which don't generally get galvanised, a car defleeted in October after 4 months use and stood for another 4 months for example would be the better bet for this, a car used constantly would at least see spring and summer rain help to wash this crud off the underbelly even if the owner never thought to wash it off.

This applies to most makes not just the one in question, hence its always best going to view a car with suitable clothes, something to lie on and a torch, a bit of surface rust is expected on subframes and steel suspension, and if its only light then you can do something about it to help the car have a long life.

Edited by gordonbennet on 21/02/2017 at 12:04

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Tue 21 Feb 2017 12:25

Confused - second hand diesel or petrol estate - SLO76

"I am, ours was the first to arrive at our dealers, mid September 2010. All deliveries into the UK from this time were MY11 cars and had a DPF fitted but there was some dealer stock of MY10 cars and some CRDi's were sold without DPF's right to the end of December."

Had this debate before skidpan. Kia and Honda both registered some cars that had already landed in country without a DPF after Jan 1st 2011. So yes some 2011 registered cars do not have a DPF I'm just not sure how to spot it without physically looking at the car. A call to your local Kia service dept might help though.

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Tue 21 Feb 2017 13:29

Confused - second hand diesel or petrol estate - skidpan

Had this debate before skidpan. Kia and Honda both registered some cars that had already landed in country without a DPF after Jan 1st 2011. So yes some 2011 registered cars do not have a DPF I'm just not sure how to spot it without physically looking at the car. A call to your local Kia service dept might help though.

You debated the Honda Civic, not the Kia Ceed. The Kia you debated was the old model Rio which is a different car totally. It had an old school engine that was supposedly unsuited to having a DPF fitted.

So whilst there were Euro 4 Rio's registered in 2011 there were no Euro 4 Ceeds registered in 2011.

Easy enough to spot if a Ceed has a DPF. Open the drivers door, only DPF equipped cars have a sticker telling you what to do if the engine light flashes i.e. drive for 20 minutes above a certain speed (37 mph?) which should force a regen.

No sticker, no DPF (unless its had a new door of course).

Basically no mechanical knowhow required, just the ability to read.

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Tue 21 Feb 2017 13:33

Confused - second hand diesel or petrol estate - SLO76

"Easy enough to spot if a Ceed has a DPF. Open the drivers door, only DPF equipped cars have a sticker telling you what to do if the engine light flashes i.e. drive for 20 minutes above a certain speed (37 mph?) which should force a regen."

Handy to know and makes it easy to spot whether any 2011 Cee'd you look at have one but remember stickers can fall off so I'd double check either visually or by calling your local Kia dealer with the reg no.

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Tue 21 Feb 2017 13:39

Confused - second hand diesel or petrol estate - Julie Adams

Can anyone tell me if the hyundai i30 suffers with the same rust issues as the ceed? I know they're sister companies basically the same car with a different badge? Are they also DPF free up until 2010? I've just had a quick look and found a couple of 2009 cars within budget with low mileage it would just give me other options.....

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Tue 21 Feb 2017 13:43

Confused - second hand diesel or petrol estate - SLO76

They're identical under the surface.

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Tue 21 Feb 2017 13:45

Confused - second hand diesel or petrol estate - SLO76

Sent a wee message to Kia UK to get clarification on whether some post Jan 11 Cee'd diesels didn't have a DPF fitted as I believe. I'll post their reply if I get one.

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Tue 21 Feb 2017 13:44

Confused - second hand diesel or petrol estate - skidpan

Its one of those metallic type stickers that tend to last the lifetime of the car. When the door is closed you cannot see it, its behind the corner of the dash. Someone would have to physically remove it but why would they?

You could always look under the bonnet, on the Ceed the DPF is easilly visible, its bolted between the turbo and the exhaust. No fancy plastic covers in the way. No tools required, one pair of Mk 1 human eyes is sufficient.

Alternatively a look at the V5, Euro 4 no DPF, Euro 5 DPF. Again only a pair of Mk 1 human eyes needed.

makes it easy to spot whether any 2011 Cee'd you look at have one

Every 2011 registered Ceed will have one (or should have one). Its the late 2010 registered ones (Sept onwards) that can be in either camp.

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Tue 21 Feb 2017 14:10

Confused - second hand diesel or petrol estate - Julie Adams

OK. I've seen this on a few mother history's now "under trays obscuring components "

Can someone explain what this actually means? They don't all have advisories for it so assuming not all ceed have these fitted?

They're on this particular car for example

www.carbase.co.uk/used/kia/ceed/1-6-crdi-89-2-ecod.../

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Tue 21 Feb 2017 14:20

Confused - second hand diesel or petrol estate - skidpan

Its down to individual testers, some comment, some don't. Our Ceed had 2 MOT's while we owned it and has had 2 more since (all at the same garage).

In 2013 no comment

In 2014 "Under-trays fitted obscuring some underside components"

In 2015 no comment

In 2016 no comment

My BMW 118D had 3 MOT's whilst I owned it all at the BMW dealer, no comment.

Since I sold it 3 more MOT's and only a comment about undertrays on one.

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Tue 21 Feb 2017 14:28

Confused - second hand diesel or petrol estate - Julie Adams

So what are under trays for?

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Tue 21 Feb 2017 14:39

Confused - second hand diesel or petrol estate - gordonbennet

Help keep engine noise within the engine bay, secondary use is to aid through flow of air under the car, thirdly help keep road debris excess water splashes and muck from entering the engine bay, in some cases they also act as sump/transmission guards.

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Tue 21 Feb 2017 15:27

Confused - second hand diesel or petrol estate - Julie Adams

Thankyou. So not much for me to worry about when looking at mot history.

So basically given the limits of my budget is can either get an older diesel without the DPF, take my chances on a car like the one above that may well have a DPF and hope it doesn't die any time soon and leave me with a huge bill. OR I can go back to petrol and suck up the slightly higher fuel costs and have no concerns about a DPF at all...... strangely enough I'm currently sat in the waggon staring at a sign for a company that does DPF cleaning :-D

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Tue 21 Feb 2017 15:37

Confused - second hand diesel or petrol estate - skidpan

Strangely enough I'm currently sat in the waggon staring at a sign for a company that does DPF cleaning :-D

They simply rip people off. Only permanent cure is a replacement.

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Tue 21 Feb 2017 15:54

Confused - second hand diesel or petrol estate - Julie Adams

I guessed that. It just made me chuckle given the discussion

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Tue 21 Feb 2017 15:55

Confused - second hand diesel or petrol estate - gordonbennet

OR I can go back to petrol and suck up the slightly higher fuel costs and have no concerns about a DPF at all.

There is a third option, get a petrol car and get it LPG converted.

This opens up a lot of research, again for you to do, its a niche fuel which suits some engines and some maybe not so much, its not the right choice for everyone, used already converted car is a possibility too but you really need a mechnically minded person to check any potential purchase out for you, few people want to sell a car they had LPG converted unless its past its sell by date, great care must be taken if this appeals.

The first place you should visit is www.filllpg.co.uk/?page=home.php and see what the LPG filling options are in your area.

Hybrid is another choice and more mainstream, but the only practical estate for you is Auris, which will probably be overbudget but might be worth the stretch.

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Tue 21 Feb 2017 16:15

Confused - second hand diesel or petrol estate - Julie Adams

Auris is a non starter unfortunately. I already had a quick look at those and they're several thousand outside my budget. There is a local garage that sells lpg so filling up wouldn't be an issue would just be the cost of conversion to consider and also servicing? Would it still be able to go to a normal garage or would I need to find a specialist to do that? When I worked for DHL they had volvo tractor units converted to run on lpg and diesel and they were awful. Underpowered and endless problems with them not switching between the 2 but I'm assuming this wouldn't be the case with a complete conversion?

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Tue 21 Feb 2017 17:16

Confused - second hand diesel or petrol estate - Julie Adams

I would lose boot space with an lpg conversion and I need that for a dog crate. Therefore it would have to be a bigger estate than the ceed to allow for it. It would also take me a few months to save up the money....

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Wed 22 Feb 2017 14:29

Confused - second hand diesel or petrol estate - SLO76

Had this from Kia earlier to my query about whether DPF's were fitted to two 2011 registered Cee'd's I said I was looking at.

"Hi, DPFs were fitted during 2011 - we can tell you yes or no if you send us the VIN number and contact details"

I've sent them my email but obviously can't send vin numbers. If you're looking at 2011 car though they'll be happy to tell you whether it has one fitted or not if you contact them with reg and vin numbers.

Edited by SLO76 on 22/02/2017 at 14:30

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Wed 22 Feb 2017 14:40

Confused - second hand diesel or petrol estate - skidpan

DPF's were indeed fitted in 2011, that was the law. they were also fitted in 2010, we had one.

Kia would not be making cars for the UK market with a DPF fitted to some and not to others.

ALL MY11 Ceed CRDI's were EU5 and had a DPF fitted and those cars were manufacturerd form August 2010 onwards and delivered into the UK from September 2010.

Don't forget that the unloved 2.0 CRDi Ceed had a DPF fitted from its introduction in 2008. It also had a DMF fitted.

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Wed 22 Feb 2017 15:44

Confused - second hand diesel or petrol estate - SLO76

You said the same thing regarding the Rio and Civic Skidpan. I'm not saying for certain that any non-compliant Cee'd's were registered in 2011 but I believe some were and I'm currently waiting on Kia customer services emailing back to verify. They must have entered the country before your car did and sat unregistered in stock somewhere. I'll get back to you either way when they get back to me.

I understand why this extension was granted. It's very difficult to import the exact number of cars they'd sell by a specific cut off date so an extension was granted so that manufacturers weren't out of pocket by having to preregister non-compliant cars before 1/1/11.

Edited by SLO76 on 22/02/2017 at 15:46

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Wed 22 Feb 2017 16:43

Confused - second hand diesel or petrol estate - skidpan

I know of one Ceed that was pre-registered because it did not have a DPF, it was in our dealers showroom.

At this time new Ceeds were in high demand and most cars were factory orders, ours was. The only stock cars were unpopular colours. Kia did not (and do not) have a options list that enables dealers to fill their showroom cars with £1000's of options that no one with 1/2 a brain would want.

If Kia were allowed to register MY 2010 cars in 2011 then the law is an ass and the beaurocrat who allowed it needs prosecuting. DPF's are law for a good reason and should be present when required. EU5 said from Jan 2011 all new diesels should have one and any car pproven to have circumvented that rule should be taken off the road, crushed and the owner compensated.

You cannot have an MOT law that says you must have one and then have loads of Honda's on the road that don't.

It should not be one rule for one maker and another rule for others.

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