|
Motorway tolls is to be restricted like the central london congestion charges or not? please if any one would like to give me or discuss with me on this particular topic.
|
|
Those in the provinces and those nearer to London who were saying "Well I never come into London and therefore the Congestion Charge doesn't affect me, but it's a good thing if it stops people using cars in London" are now finding out that the knock-on effects WILL affect them and that soon they'll be paying every time they take their cars off their drive.
|
OK so its Friday and just to be devil's advocate.
Just to try and get this discussion focussed consider the following from "Paying for Road Use" Commission for Integrated Transport.
Extract from Chair's foreword para's 1 to 3
"A road traffic solution that reduces traffic, significantly cuts congestion nationally and delivers shorter and more reliable journey times without any increase in overall motoring taxation sounds like a dream for Britain's road users.
But when you larn that such a solution will become possible in the not too distant future and that it would offer major cost savings to some users, cut pollution and bring benefits to the economy, to bus passengers and to the road haulage industry you realise its development needs serious consideration.
These are the conclusions we reached after examining what could be achieved by refocussing the way in which we currently pay for using the roads, moving away from taxation by introducing a system of charging to drive in congested conditions. In this instance, without increasing overall what users pay. Such a move, however, could only happen once the public transport improvements promised in the Government’s 10-year plan have been delivered." (FiF note My emphasis here)
Other significant sound bites from the report are:-
"Letting congestion grow and spread is the only truly anti-motorist policy"
"When and where there is no congestion, no charges would be made."
"63% of vehicle miles would not incur any charge at all."
" this will not be possible until after the 10-year Transport Plan has been fully implemented"
(a repeat I know but shows how important this point is considered)
"scheme does not create an additional level of charges for the road user, but replaces the way we currently pay for road use with a new, fairer charging system."
Discuss//
|
|
|
|
Personally I see nothing wrong in the idea that those who use the roads the most should pay the most and that includes m'way tolls. BUT (and it is a big but) those who use the road the most are already paying more thru fuel duties.
Enough money is taken from the motorist for a decent road network to have been in place for years. No government seems to have sorted this out unlike certain other counties. Instead we always come back to there being too many cars on the road. What came first, the inadequate road system or too many cars? If we had a better road network there wouldn't be so many jams and therefore no talk of tolls and other charging?
One of the other reasons that tolls will be (re)introduced is due to EU laws on car manufacturers. As the government gets a significant portion of its "income" from the motorist, ever increasing MPGs (which is an EU directive) severely affects the coffers. There has to be another way to attack the soft motorist and tolls are it.
The government was talking of carrying out experiments on the M3 to see how it would work. If they insist on bringing charging in, which seems likely, I would be very keen to see something given back to us. Maybe scrap VED and change the MOT rules to cars over 5 years old, as well as seeing decent roads (and less tax on fuel).
|
I don't see how this is going to work. If drivers know they will be charged a fee after junction X, they will simply leave the motorway, drive through a town or two and rejoin at junction Y once the congestion charge has been lifted. This will not cure the problem, just move it elsewhere.
Alternatively, if the charge areas are not fixed, then how can a they justify charging a driver for driving into an area that was free flowing when they started their journey, but is now congested?
IMHO it'll never happen.
|
|
and it's exactly the reverse in France. Immediatley before the city limits autoroute becomes free, and for subsequent two (or more) junctions... so traffic comes out of town, along 2 or three junctions, then back in again. Discuss...
|
and it's exactly the reverse in France. Immediatley before the city limits autoroute becomes free, and for subsequent two (or more) junctions... so traffic comes out of town, along 2 or three junctions, then back in again. Discuss...
This will only work if the capacity of the motorway is sufficient.
The problem with the M25 is that too many people use it for short distances so that its primary function, of enabling long distance traffic to bypass London, is impeded.
|
|
|
|
|
Article in today's Daily Mail quoting Prof Begg to the effect that he felt motorists ought to pay to use the roads! Like we don't already!!
|
|
|
I don't see how this is going to work. If drivers know they will be charged a fee after junction X, they will simply leave the motorway, drive through a town or two and rejoin at junction Y once the congestion charge has been lifted. This will not cure the problem, just move it elsewhere.
as ever, its rather more complex than this. Your average driver has to weigh up the inconvenience of having to leave the motorway, go through endless roundabouts, get lost, taking more time etc etc, probably cost as much in extra fuel to do this than go through the toll.
IMHO it'll never happen.
that's wishful thinking! I think it will. As I've said before however, I haven't got a real problem with tolls provided they work in reducing congestion.
Something that strikes me with this automatic tolling is that drivers will inevitably forget that they went through a toll(if the system is to be automated as in London). This will be true if tolls start springing up all over the place. Imagine a journey up the M3, round the M25, into London, out again. Drivers could go through several toll areas and forget which ones (if any) they needed to pay for...
splodgeface
|
FiF
As a very intelligent man you will appreciate that in the background to any announcement/action by HMG certain other wheels are turning. There is no doubt this is very applicable to the field of congestion/tolls and the future of road transport.
Not surprising then is it that very quitely on tne 2nd December 2002 The Road Traffic Amendment Bill was placed before Parliament.
tinyurl.com/674b
Now why in this day and age do they need this or are they with forward planning contemplating a return to basics?
Well as you say it is Friday.
DVD
|
"Now why in this day and age do they need this or are they with forward planning contemplating a return to basics?"
The ammendments for horse drawn vehicles probably included because these don't get CC'd in london, and maybe HMG expects a sudden increase in their usage
|
|
|
DVD,
I'll take the bait, paint brushes etc away for today.
Is it anyway connected to the chap who used to go to the boozer with pony & trap. No problem getting home pie eyed as the horse knew the way home. Maybe the DUI laws didn't cover driving horse & cart. Perhaps there was a low speed chase OJ Simpson style??
I dunno, you'd think there were more important things to do wouldn't you?
Off for my Sunday tea, still no answer about black hand gang BTW :-)
Cheers,
FiF
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
CM - you suggest a change to MoT cars over 5 years old instead of 3, as though it were just another means of raising money. I suggest that (a) the money raised is small [and I presume most of it covers the testing station's costs, as many of them offer cut rates] and (b) the MoT's real purpose is to ensure that owners check their cars for serious imminent faults. With many cars doing 25K/year, I'm not in favour of waiting until 125K is recorded before anyone takes a look.
|
When road charging comes it will be done electronically with a little box on the dash of your car that can be read by roadside equipment.Already happens in other parts of the world,most notably Singapore,the technology is not too complicated and can easily be introduced in the UK.
Have also heard that MOT is going to be introduced for all cars from 12 months old.
Wake up,Government wants to make motoring more difficult and expensive,and its easy to sell to the punters if you dress it up as 'safe and green'.
Five to ten years we will have national electronic road charging and top speed limiters fitted to cars,it's all too easy.
|
|
With regards to motorway tolls and the M25, I remember an article I read about charging for use of the M25. At first the idea seemed slightly bizarre and definitely counter-intuitive. The idea was that it was cheaper to travel further. The theory being to discourage short hops. Although nowadays who would use the M25 as a quick route to somewhere?
|
Let's not be naive.
Congestion changing is just another tax, disguised as being seen to be doing something constructive.
Find a captive market, where it's busiest, and extract money.
The holiday companies do just that at school holiday time. Maybe they could call it a "holiday congestion charge"?
|
|
|
That is the basic fault with the M25, it is trying to fulfill two functions: a long distance bypass for London and a short-distance bypass for inadequate local roads.
An official choice needs to be made between those two functions.
If it is to be a long-distance bypass then half the access points need to be closed and the north and south circular roads need to be upgraded to take local traffic.
If it is to take local traffic then an outer orbital bypass must be put in place with restricted access. (Some elements of this are either in place or under construction anyway)
|
If it is to be a long-distance bypass then half the access points need to be closed and the north and south circular roads need to be upgraded to take local traffic.
Was it Lord Birt (sp?) who suggested that the UK needed super-motorways with very few junctions? I think that the idea got shot down before it even took off which is a shame as I think that is exactly what we need. London>Glasgow/Edinburgh with a small number of exit points, perhas along the lines off
1. Oxford/Milton Keynes
2. Birmingham/Coventy/Leicester
3. Manchester/Leeds
4. Carlisle/Newcastle
5. Glasgow/Edinburgh
or is this unrealistic
|
Then why not Shuttle-type trains for this long distance stuff? Shuttle-type carriages would eliminate almost all the problems of typical MotorRail ones.
Billy
|
Good idea but I have doubts about capacity.
The restricting factors are line capacity and loading/unloading times.
As an optomistic estimate a train could carry perhaps 100 vehicles and could run at maybe 15 minute intervals.
400 vehicles an hour is a very small proportion of what the M1 and A1 carry.
|
Solution? Tarmac over rails and make them exclusive to PSV and Lorries.
When you think about it every freaign trtain journey requires two lorry rides anyway!
--
These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
|
|
|
Solution? Tarmac over rails and make them exclusive to PSV and Lorries.
When you think about it every freight train journey requires two lorry rides at each end anyway!
--
These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
