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Are high-tech cars putting off older customers because they're too complex to set up and use?
I'm in the market for a high-end SUV, so I've looked at Range Rover, Range Rover Sport, Mercedes-Benz ML-class so far and have a few others to look at - but I'm totally lost with all this high-tech displays I don't understand and electronic gadget options that I've no idea if I need or not.
All the manufacturers seem to rely on online configurators but often all they tell you is the option name, the price and a yes/no box.
In Range Rover's case they cannot give/send a printed brochure which to an oldie like me is appalling for a £60,000 plus vehicle.
I understand why younger people want high-tech, or at least I accept they do, but surely there needs to be a simple alternative for those who don't embrace the "all-new and different every 2 years" - especially if we have the money !!
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For basic You have just missed out on Range Rover number 1! It has a basic radio bolted under the dash to the right od the steering wheel and thats about it.
www.silverstoneauctions.com/1970-range-rover-chass...1
I suspect owners rarely use most of the functions on over specced cars.
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We have a microwave oven at work. I can barely use it. I bought a portable music player 10 years ago, awful, exchanged it for an ipod, much easier to use.
There is a huge difference between something with lots of features, and good design. Sadly many products are designed to sell on the basis of features, good design costs more, because you have to spend more time improving it.
Edited by Leif on 06/09/2014 at 09:56
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For me yes, not just older people either I guess. Stands to reason any device on your car can go wrong, less devices less to go wrong....simples. This has been covered somewhat earlier with what don't you need on a car.
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Waiting for the ultimate - a self-loading driverless hea*** (edit - technology again - apparently it has to be a "funerary vehicle")
Edited by colinh on 06/09/2014 at 13:48
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In Range Rover's case they cannot give/send a printed brochure which to an oldie like me is appalling for a £60,000 plus vehicle.
Brochures give very little useful information now, printed or not. Even the owner's manual is more likely to obfuscate than illuminate.
We recently bought a DSG equipped car, but you wouldn't know from the brochure or the handbook how the gearbox and clutches work (in principle, not detail) or how best to use it.
There's a separate problem that the use of microprocessors to control everything means that manufacturers put a lot of features on cars just because they can - in some cases this is just software. No surprise that many remain undiscovered, not just unused.
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Dacia Dusters are basic/low tech...
www.dacia.co.uk/vehicles/duster/configurator/
or just put some time into learning but I do think as people get older, the effort of learning something new outweights the benefit so they can't be bothered.
Edited by Hamsafar on 06/09/2014 at 17:51
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but I do think as people get older, the effort of learning something new outweights the benefit so they can't be bothered.
That's certainly true in my case, and I think many others too - I'm fine using Excel and Word, and I could manage their Win 96 versions - but twice I've had to upgrade my PC as MS don't update security on old systems and each time the new version of Office is quite unlike the old one.
Others of my age will recognise that learning ability decreases with age, what was easy to absorb at 20 is harder at 40, difficult at 60 and impossible at 80 - there may be businesses out there trying to take advantage of that but trust me, we don't lose any ability to assess the value we get for our money!
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I humbly suggest you look at Toyota, Amazon 200 is the obvious contender for the sort of budget you are looking at.
If that's too complicated then privately import one of the 70 series they're building for Japan only (recent thread here), still the same as they were in the 80's, you may never need another vehicle because a 70 series cannot be broken.
We'll probably never buy another new vehicle, only bought one and that was a Hilux, bought for its simplicity, we'll stick with 90's designs as long as we can, the new stuff and its complication (bland too) holds no pleasure for us.
Edited by gordonbennet on 06/09/2014 at 18:05
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GB - I've a self-imposed limit of 200 g/km CO2 to keep my fuel costs as they are now but both the Amazon and Land Cruiser are over than - and HJ's Car-by-car Reviews aren't very kind!
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Dont pay any attention to the official co2 figures. You cant assume 2 vehicles with the same co2 from the EU test will do remotely the same mpg. Its a test with hugely flawed results.
Furthermore any differences will be irrelevant next to the depreciation on any £60k car. Again, any road test will only tell you what the roadtester likes, and thats probably very different to what you or I like in a car.
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Any car which forces you to go through a touchscreen menu more than one step to adjust the aicon, or anything you need whilst driving is inherently unsafe,
Explains why BMW and Ausi drivers often act like muppets.
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When I was looking at Subarus with a view to replacing my Outback the salesman went through all the features as though I was impressed by bling. One of the features was that the car refused to obey if it thought the driver was reckless. By devious clever means it braked one wheel if the car was in danger of going out of control. I don't drive like a joy rider, so the most interesting thing was what I discovered in the small print of the sales brochure. There was a switch to shut off all the clever stuff.
I didn't buy new because the complexity of it all was not worth the effort. Added to that, they discontinued the torque converter gearbox and the 2.5 litre real fuel engine. I never liked smelly diesels. So, I am keeping my old car in top notch condition. When Iast took the car in to a distributor, for a recall, I showed the service record book and the man suggested that I had the car 'over-serviced', and I said no.
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I showed the service record book and the man suggested that I had the car 'over-serviced', and I said no.
Spot on Hillman, what he meant was...going to be difficult to sell this blighter a new car because his one is going to last for ever.
I drove lorries for many years for probably the best maintained fleet in the county and one of the best kept in the country, they were overspecified new so on top of the job at all times (mind you we had transport men back then correctly specifying British lorries bought for the job, not foreign stuff rent/leased by the fleet), they were overserviced too, engine oil and filters every 15k, gearbox and axle oils every 45k, they ran generally trouble free at far higher speeds than todays elephants, they were sold on at 7 years on average and there was a queue of small hauliers and owner drivers to buy them.
My old boss, not a man to chuck money away, always said oil and good servicing is cheap, engines drivertrains and downtime are not, not much has changed far as i can see and i learned a lot there.
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When I was looking at Subarus with a view to replacing my Outback the salesman went through all the features as though I was impressed by bling. One of the features was that the car refused to obey if it thought the driver was reckless. By devious clever means it braked one wheel if the car was in danger of going out of control. I don't drive like a joy rider, so the most interesting thing was what I discovered in the small print of the sales brochure. There was a switch to shut off all the clever stuff.
I didn't buy new because the complexity of it all was not worth the effort. Added to that, they discontinued the torque converter gearbox and the 2.5 litre real fuel engine. I never liked smelly diesels. So, I am keeping my old car in top notch condition. When Iast took the car in to a distributor, for a recall, I showed the service record book and the man suggested that I had the car 'over-serviced', and I said no.
I loved my Outback 2.5 Auto although the fuel consumption hurt as the price of fuel rose - it'll never happen but if they introduced a Tribeca replacement (without the hideous styling) with a 3.0 H6 diesel and conventional slushbox I'd be first in the queue for one - but right now they're not even sure about selling the new Outback in the UK.
Part of my selection criteria is that the car has to handle respectably for a SUV - once you've had an Outback it's hard to go back !!
Edited by RT on 06/09/2014 at 21:43
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"I loved my Outback 2.5 Auto although the fuel consumption hurt as the price of fuel rose - it'll never happen but if they introduced a Tribeca replacement (without the hideous styling) with a 3.0 H6 diesel and conventional slushbox I'd be first in the queue for one - but right now they're not even sure about selling the new Outback in the UK."
I can state that paragraph identically except replace 2.5 with 3.0Rn. I look at ten year old examples of the Outback and think that they still look good.
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I think I have to realise and admit that I am now an 'older driver' (46). It makes me despair that car adverts now lead on headlights,customisation and Bluetooth; what happened to "cor, what will she do mister?"
I get exposure to new cars as rentals at work, with their warning screens, stop-start and soft touch interiors. But I can honestly say I can't wait to get back my 13 year old 3-litre six and drive home again. I can't pair my phone with it (so it stays in the boot), I can't connect my iPod (oh, I don't have one), it has no satnav (maps and phone?) and it doesn't have LED headlights or any warnings. OK, so it drinks faster than Peter Barlow, but it's bought and paid for and nothing new under £30,000 interests me. What will I do when she finally gives up the ghost?
Edited by Wukl on 06/09/2014 at 21:58
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Wukl, you must be my long lost brother...i would have said twin but i've got far too many years on you..:-)
We have pool cars at work, Fords, always a complete disappointment, and i drove a car transporter for 20 years until 5 years ago so am thoroughly steeped in the horror that is the modern car and avoid at all costs.
I still drive lorries but a tanker now, it has the compulsory (cos too few can drive lorries any more) automated manual gearbox from hell and that my friend endeth the lesson, the gearbox ruins what could be a half decent lorry if it had a Cummins engine too.
When i clock off i get into one of either of our petrol sixes with slush boxes, one 12 year old Outback, one 18 year old Benz, comfort quiet smooth driving bliss...but, and i commend this to the house, within a few yards both our cars click over to LPG so as cheap to run as a tractor engined medium saloon...see you can have your cake and eat it..:-)
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I think I have to realise and admit that I am now an 'older driver' (46). It makes me despair that car adverts now lead on headlights,customisation and Bluetooth; what happened to "cor, what will she do mister?"
I get exposure to new cars as rentals at work, with their warning screens, stop-start and soft touch interiors. But I can honestly say I can't wait to get back my 13 year old 3-litre six and drive home again. I can't pair my phone with it (so it stays in the boot), I can't connect my iPod (oh, I don't have one), it has no satnav (maps and phone?) and it doesn't have LED headlights or any warnings. OK, so it drinks faster than Peter Barlow, but it's bought and paid for and nothing new under £30,000 interests me. What will I do when she finally gives up the ghost?
How I sympathise!
When I looked at the M-B ML-series, the first thing the salesman highlighted was the Bluetooth phone pairing - my phone is older than Bluetooth, it stays in my pocket for emergencies only - if it rings I ignore it until I can pull over legally and safely and then ring back
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Touch screens or any system that require visual attention e.g. rotary knob controlled menus, are, by definition dangerous in a car environment and likely to increase the probability of road accidents.
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One word.... Infotainment !
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One word.... Infotainment !
Two words - infotainment off.
My cars are set with radio volume on zero but Traffic Announcements enabled - I occasionally play CDs while I'm waiting in the car.
I don't have any real issue with buying secondhand so maybe I need to look for "older" reliable luxury SUVs - I guess I'd better revisit the Toyota LC.
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I don't have any real issue with buying secondhand so maybe I need to look for "older" reliable luxury SUVs - I guess I'd better revisit the Toyota LC.
I've had mine from 11 months old (it's an 07).
Average service bill (incl MOT) has been about £220. Which is less than I pay for my Mazda MX-5, despite the L:C taking rather more oil etc.
I've had to pay out for one set of new tyres, and for an air conditioning pipe. That's it.
I've added a reversing camera, an Xcarlink (allows me to connect my mp3 player), and a parrot car kit.
It's handling is very old-school 4x4, but it copes very well with my 100-mile daily commute.
Edited by Marlot on 07/09/2014 at 10:25
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I'd like to know what happens when one of thse touch screens, which has the controls for so many things, ceases to function. And how much will the bloomin' thing cost to repair/replace.
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I'd like to know what happens when one of thse touch screens, which has the controls for so many things, ceases to function. And how much will the bloomin' thing cost to repair/replace.
I bought a landcruiser LC4 rather than the top-spec LC5 for just that reason. The LC5 has the controls integrated into the screen, whereas the LC4 has separate switches.
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Last year, when my wife wanted to replace her Honda Jazz, she fully expected to buy the same make/model again - she'd been very happy with the first one (bought from new, 05 reg).
Her old one was a delight in ergonomics - few switches, easy to control - especially on the move.
The replacement Jazz has loads of switches and additional functions, so she looked at others. She rejected the Fiesta for similar reasons, and bought a Toyota Yaris - which was easy to operate.
Our conclusion - newer isn't always better, but neither is older always better. Many gadget makers are so keen to add in percieved functionality that they forget that the car has to be designed around the user to be truly effective.
We've just moved from cable to non-cable broadband. Very sorry to lose our Tivo, which was well designed. The Humax we've bought instead is pretty good, but not quite in the same league.
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All this is music to my ears.
Do you really have to go through a menu to operate ventilation controls?
I'm one of those people who would still want manually operated windows, even for the passenger side, but then I do have arms like an orangutan.
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Just a thought... Years ago people used to change the engine in their car for some other type. In South Africa they used to put a Granada engine into a Cortina, for instance. Then again, in the UK they used to put a V6 engine into a Land Rover. If you chose the engine sensibly the only requirement was to make a new metal plate to match the engine to the clutch / gearbox housing. The rest was easy. Imagine the problems one would meet now, with the complicated ecu and electronics.
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This thread reminds me of a joke current during the change-over to decimal currency. "Why don`t they wait `till all the old people are dead" If we all took this attitude we would be still driving a horse and cart. The difficulty arises with new or newish technology. Most of us learn to adapt. The past is behind us!
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Just a thought... Years ago people used to change the engine in their car for some other type. In South Africa they used to put a Granada engine into a Cortina, for instance. Then again, in the UK they used to put a V6 engine into a Land Rover. If you chose the engine sensibly the only requirement was to make a new metal plate to match the engine to the clutch / gearbox housing. The rest was easy. Imagine the problems one would meet now, with the complicated ecu and electronics
Not that difficult. My Caterham started life with a X-Flow engine fitted with a Weber carburettor and a clockwork distributor. The most complicated electrical device on the car was the intermittent wipe.
Now its got a Zetec engine that should have been fitted in a 2004 Focus with all the usual electronics.
Stripped the engine back to its basics keeping only the sensors mentioned later. Basically I had to buy an aftermarket ECU and an underbonnet wiring harness, fitted some throttle bodies, high pressure pump and pipework and away it went. All done in my own single garage over about 2 months. The only sensors on the engine that needed connecting were the one on the flywheel that sends the signal for spark and fuel (it also sensors engine revs) and the one for water temp which controls warm up enrichment. Its got a throttle sensor on the throttle bodies that send a signal for throttle position.
Its simple stuff and in many ways far simpler than a dizzy and carbs. Much fewer moving parts for starters.
And I am getting old. A few weeks ago I got a cheap Senior Citizens rate without asking, didn't correct him. Made the wifes day.
Edited by skidpan on 10/09/2014 at 17:18
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This thread also should serve to remind people that they don't have to buy into the electronic dream, there are alternatives.
If they are happy to pay substantial amounts of money for cars that will most likely be uneconomical to fix by the time they're ten years old, then thats fine, fill yer boots.
I'll do the other thing thanks, the more complicated they make them the more certain i for one am of going the other way.
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TEN years old? Despite advances in materials, machining-tolerances and electronic component reliability, I thought most manufacturers these days weren’t much bothered about their cars lasting beyond the initial warranty period – especially what with the size of the fleet and rental markets and cars increasingly being considered fashion-accessories.
I seem to remember some thread from perhaps 2012 where a guy was told by the dealer that his 2007 diesel with 70 or was it 90 thousand miles on was ‘probably near the end of its economically-viable life’ – and that was a Honda Accord !
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If we all took this attitude we would be still driving a horse and cart.
Lovely and quiet, clean air and plenty of manure for the allotment!
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If we all took this attitude we would be still driving a horse and cart.
Lovely and quiet, clean air and plenty of manure for the allotment!
Plus, if you've had a skin full, then just go to sleep and those horses find their own way back. Who needs GPS?
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I just love the way the flat earthers have embraced the net but want to stop the clock with cars. All these predictions of doom and technological meltdown & yet cars just seem to get better, safer, genuinely more economical, more entertaining and I love that. Embrace the new, don't fear it. Oh and as for not learning in your 80's my 83 year old Dad would take great issue.
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I'm no flat earther I don't think; since starting to drive (at an illegally young age) I've heartly embraced fuel injection, fully electronic ignition, coil packs, ABS, cruise control, air-conditioning, traction control, power steering, ESC, electric windows, digital odometers, central locking, remote locking, trip computers, even something as simple as a radio since my first few cars. My gripe is cars now are more like moble phones, just an accessory to be personalised judged by the quality of it's touchscreen. The fact it goes and stops seems to be irrelevant, let alone how it does it. Combine with the dominance of the fleet market and their parsimonious fleet managers there seems to be little but swathes of miserable grey diesels on offer in increasingly bloated ugly bodyshells, unless you spend a significant wedge.
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BRs like Piggy are entitled to have their say, but if you were stuck in an out of the way place, and you're mobile couldn't get a signal, could you fix your car ?
I once stopped for a VW Beetle full of people on the road between Kitwe and Mufulira in Zambia. The throttle cable had broken. I fixed it so the car could be driven using a piece of 2.5 mmsq copper strand and an electrical connector minus the plastic insulation. That left the cable too short to install the throttle return spring so the driver, a girl, borrowed the flip-flop sandal of one of the passengers and rolled it up under the throttle pedal. I followed them back to Kitwe to make sure they got home (I was going there anyhow).
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Manged to 'pair' my mobile to the new Sportback/Bluetooth system in around 3-mins last Monday, without the need to refer to the manual, and I'm 63. Haven't made a call on it yet mind!...
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Manged to 'pair' my mobile to the new Sportback/Bluetooth system in around 3-mins last Monday, without the need to refer to the manual, and I'm 63. Haven't made a call on it yet mind!...
63?
That's not old.. spring chicken..
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That's not old.. spring chicken..
...with the body of a 45-year old, but that's plainly another story for another day!
Anyway, this Audi MMI malarkey/system – I'm liking it...
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Has anybody seen the latest article on data protection ? I assume that the kids in the back seats are the ones surfing the internet, but you never know !
www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/11093992/The-c...l
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If we all took this attitude we would be still driving a horse and cart.
Lovely and quiet, clean air and plenty of manure for the allotment!
London in the 1890s had a major health and safety issue with tetanus and the impact of horse manure on flies and water pollution...
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If we all took this attitude we would be still driving a horse and cart.
Lovely and quiet, clean air and plenty of manure for the allotment!
London in the 1890s had a major health and safety issue with tetanus and the impact of horse manure on flies and water pollution...
It was tongue in cheek.
But that's what you get when you have thousands of people living on top of each other in cities. They have modern problems with air pollution and fat from sewage blocking up the pipes underground now, you just can't see it.
Despite all the naysayers, I'm waiting for electric car technology to keep developing. Easy to drive, and instant torque.
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