Regular customer - Parking charge pain - oldroverboy.

SWMBO went out one saturday evening in may to meet some colleagues for an after work drink in a hotel where we have been regular customers for a few years. (I did not go as Docs talking shop bores me)

Hotel has put up signs to say give your vehicle reg at reception or you will be fined. swmbo did not see them in the dark car park and missed the ones in the hotel entrance. Have now received a parking charge notice for £60.. Called and explained, told "tough" so said ok, but you know us, you know we are regular, have paid, because need to pay within the timescale or charge goes up.. Told Manager that would no longer spend our money in their establishment as 1 mistake over such a thing for parking 1 hour when a customer is not acceptable. They will lose far more than the £60 as we spend much more than that on each visit. Told "That is a threat". I said refund and we will spend that and much and more with you or goodbye.

Now waiting for the phone call about the refund.... (But don't believe it will come)

Custom will be taken elsewhere...

Regular customer - Parking charge pain - FP

"Have now received a parking charge notice for £60.. Called and explained, told "tough" so said ok, but you know us, you know we are regular, have paid, because need to pay within the timescale or charge goes up."

I can't help thinking it's a pity you paid. I assume the car park is being run by one of these charming parking companies and it would have been interesting to see if they were prepared to go to court when their signs are not illuminated after dark (I assume, from your story). If the signage is inadequate their case would be thrown out of court.

That way, you would have had £60 to spend somewhere else.

I don't know if you think it worth making the point to the hotel.

Edited by FP on 06/06/2014 at 20:54

Regular customer - Parking charge pain - daveyjp
And if the hotel don't see sense you are now either faced with paying it, or going through the motions for 3-4 months to win against the scammers.

Plenty of good advice online how to win at appeal and the bonus is it costs the scammers £30 to lose.
Regular customer - Parking charge pain - Armitage Shanks {p}

OP has already paid so appeal not possible (?) and refund highly unlikely.

Regular customer - Parking charge pain - daveyjp
Sorry, missed the part about payment. The issue over the charge increasing is no issue if you appeal, but too late now. If the establishment is part of a larger chain contact the Chief Exec and see if he can see sense to maybe reimburse you.

Tripadvisor is also a good way of getting a message across.

As you have said you will never go back I'd send the manager details of money you have spent elsewhere instead of his establishment a few times a year!

Regular customer - Parking charge pain - bananastand

For future reference, if anyone gets one of these horrendous scamming tickets, or invoices (please, let no-one use the word "fine") if you follow the very simple advice on MSE, the success rate is an astounding 100%!

My thread on this subject was closed down, probably rightly, by the moderators, because some contributors seemed to be mentally ill.

If anyone feels unsure about the subject, or intimidated by the highly immoral scare tactics the parking companies use, I am happy to help. In fact I run a facetious FB page devoted to the issue.

Regular customer - Parking charge pain - colinh

Car + "after work drink" - sorry, no sympathy

Regular customer - Parking charge pain - bananastand

Colin you are the type of "contributor" who gets these threads shut down. Your comment is irrelevant, self-righteous, and in a word "snippy". Now stick to the point because nobody likes a troll.

Regular customer - Parking charge pain - Bobbin Threadbare

Car + "after work drink" - sorry, no sympathy

You mean a diet coke? Or a lime and soda? Lime and soda is eye-wateringly tart I grant you but to lack sympathy...!

Regular customer - Parking charge pain - bananastand

oops try again

Edited by bananastand on 07/06/2014 at 10:30

Regular customer - Parking charge pain - bananastand

This is the letter you want. BUT - take advice from MSE, they are very helpful. NEVER TELL THE SCAMMERS WHO WAS DRIVING.

forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4816...2



Dear {company name of this member of ''PPC World''},

PCN number xxxxxxx
As the registered keeper, I have received your parking invoice which of course, I decline your invitation to pay. I wish to invoke your appeals process, since all liability to your company is denied on the following basis:

1) The amount being claimed is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss to your company or the landowner
2) Your signage does not comply with your ATA Code of Practice and was not sufficiently prominent to create any contract
3) You are not the landowner and do not have the standing to offer contracts nor to bring a claim for trespass

Please issue your standard cancellation letter or a specific, detailed rejection letter. If you choose to send the latter, it must state:

- the legal basis of your charge (i.e. breach, trespass or contractual fee?) as your signage was not seen/accepted by the driver and your recent Notice failed to make the basis of the charge clear. As keeper, I cannot be expected to guess the nature of the allegation.

- if alleging breach of contract, with your rejection letter I require a breakdown of the liquidated damages suffered, and by whom, and when this calculation was determined and how this particular 'loss' arose. Please also explain how/why you charge a fixed sum no matter whether the alleged contravention was trivial or more serious and how that can amount to a genuine pre-estimate of loss.

- if alleging trespass please enclose evidence of the perpetrator and proof of the liquidated damages alleged and the calculation of this sum.

- if alleging 'contractual fee' I require that you now send me a VAT invoice by return and explain the daily rate for parking and service provided for the fee. Failure to provide this information and a VAT invoice now that I have requested it, will be considered evidence that this was not in fact a genuine offer to park for a fee and is merely a penalty which is not recoverable in contract law (as found by Mr Recorder Gibson QC, on appeal at Luton County Court in the case of Civil Enforcement v McCafferty 3YK50188 (AP476) 21/2/2014).

Take formal note:

(a) Your unsupported, unsolicited invoice and any further letters if you persist, will constitute harassment. If you continue, your contact and that of any agent will be deemed a 'serious and persistent unwarranted threat' as found by Lord Justice Sedley in Ferguson v British Gas Trading Ltd [2009] EWCA Civ 46 (10 February 2009) and I reserve the right to take the matter further. You have been informed that I consider this to be harassment so any decision to send further letters rather than cancel the invoice will reinforce the evidence of your persistent unwarranted threat and you may be required to justify your actions in court.

(b) Any obfuscation on your part, such as pretending I have to name the driver, alleging I am too late or unable to appeal as keeper or requiring more evidence when clearly I have already set out my full challenge for this stage, will be reported to the DVLA and to your respective ATA, as a sanctionable breach of your Code of Practice.

(c) If you reject my challenge and insist upon taking the matter further I must inform you that I may claim my costs from you and my time at the court rate of £18 per hour. The expenses I may claim are not exhaustive but may include the cost of stamps, envelopes, travel expenses and legal fees as well as liquidated damages for distress arising from harassment.

By continuing to pursue me you hereby accept liability to pay my costs when I prevail and you acknowledge and imply full understanding of the above.

Yours,



{the registered keeper's name}
ADD A SQUIGGLE IF POSTING IT - NO NEED TO USE A REAL SIGNATURE

Regular customer - Parking charge pain - gordonbennet

Top man Bananastand, thankyou.

AVAAAANT he bellowed....'ows about a sticky linking Bananastands above post please.

Someone like ORB might already have had a poke nose and been able to metaphorically invite his no longer used hotel to do some poking when this invoice arrived.

Regular customer - Parking charge pain - Arbuthnot Sludgebucket

So is the gist of this that PCN's are unenforceable and if you follow this routine they'll just give up ?

Regular customer - Parking charge pain - Bromptonaut

So is the gist of this that PCN's are unenforceable and if you follow this routine they'll just give up ?

If they're the @Parking Charge Notice' sort issued as speculative invoices by private landowners or their agents there's a very good chance they will give up. Only golden rule is to keep a sharp lookout for any County Court Summons just in case they get serious.

Penalty Charge Notices issued by the Council however must be taken seriously.

Regular customer - Parking charge pain - Arbuthnot Sludgebucket

Thanks for that.

I tend to only park where I should, and I understand a parking free for all would be chaos, but I really dislike the way some of these companies operate

Regular customer - Parking charge pain - bananastand

Update - I have it from a real top expert on this subject that my notice to keeper letter, coupled with the outrageous wording on the car park signs, mean that the "contract", such as it is, is "enforceable" against the driver only. There is obviously no legal requirement to supply the driver's name - but oh, how they try to convince you there is! - so they have just about won gold silver and bronze in the ineptitude olympics. The NTK letter breaches the POFA 2012 rules about eight different ways!

The tragedy is, some will pay up.

No i do not advocate free for all parking but this situation is nothing short of a scam, luckily, this time, run by fools.

Edited by bananastand on 08/06/2014 at 17:00

Regular customer - Parking charge pain - oldroverboy.

Car + "after work drink" - sorry, no sympathy

For the "gentleman" (Colin?) who said "after work" and drink no sympathy...

The following applies.

When we (or indeed swmbo alone) goes out, Whoever is driving does NOT EVER drink. EVER EVER EVER...... alcohol. (And Swmbo rarely drinks alcohol at all) If we choose to go out before or after work for a drink (socialising) then we are free to do so.

I assume that your comment applies to those of the great british public who cannot go to a pub without getting poleaxed.

Edited by oldroverboy. on 09/06/2014 at 18:51

Regular customer - Parking charge pain - concrete

Car + "after work drink" - sorry, no sympathy

For the "gentleman" (Colin?) who said "after work" and drink no sympathy...

The following applies.

When we (or indeed swmbo alone) goes out, Whoever is driving does NOT EVER drink. EVER EVER EVER...... alcohol. (And Swmbo rarely drinks alcohol at all) If we choose to go out before or after work for a drink (socialising) then we are free to do so.

I assume that your comment applies to those of the great british public who cannot go to a pub without getting poleaxed.

Well said Oldroverboy. Pity you paid though, it really goes against the grain that these speculative scammer can have your money for nowt.

Cheers Concrete

Regular customer - Parking charge pain - Avant

"....'ows about a sticky linking Bananastands above post please."

Good idea. I'll show it to HJ and our publisher Sarah in case they have anything to add or subtract.

Regular customer - Parking charge pain - oldroverboy.

Regarding the PCN received and paid, This morning I went to see the manager of the Hotel/Restaurant where swmbo parked and where we have been regulat customers.

It was courteously exxplained to me that the Hotel/restaurant make nothing out od the notices issued, So I pointed out that we wre normally regular customers and would withdraw our future custom. Manager said (repeating herself) that there were signs everywhere, etc etc, so I said regretfully if you are unwilling to do anything then our money would go elsewhere, and what are they going to do outside of the "tourist season" short as it is in west wales without the local population.

I also said it wasn't the point of the £60, it is paid, after all swmbo drove, not me, i wasn;t there, and so end of matter for me, and hopefully lesson learned for swmbo... (yes youngrovergirl)

Regular customer - Parking charge pain - FP

I'm glad you made the point to the Hotel; probably the only good thing that might come out of it is that they may eventually drop the whole idea of managing car-parking in this way, though I assume they started for a reason. If it results in lost custom, however, they will certainly drop it.

I notice that my local B & Q have dropped their parking management company; it was the result of adverse publicity, I am certain, like when their ANPR equipment made errors. One driver was logged entering in the morning, not logged exiting half an hour later, not logged re-entering when he returned to take back some faulty products, and logged exiting. They tried to claim he had been there the whole time. The local paper ran the story.

As the car park is never near full, there was never any point to it anyway.

Regular customer - Parking charge pain - daveyjp
Watchdog 11 June 2014 8pm BBC1 will be doing a piece on private parking companies.

I expect it will be a poor piece, with lots of nonsense spouted by the British Parking Association (aka cosey private members club who need members to issue tickets so they can pay vast amounts to the BPA and maintain the virtuous circle) in response to questions put by someone who knows nothing about the ins and outs of the operations of the scammers.
Regular customer - Parking charge pain Got a surprise - oldroverboy.

Absolutely AMAZED...

got a phone call to say "They had a meeting"

It seems that I am not the only one to "howl".

In view of the fact that I am/we are regular customers On this occasion only we have been issued with £60 of vouchers to use 6 x £10 on our next six visits.

I was not expecting this but have accepted, because I had pointed out that we would go elsewhere, (even though we like the establisment) the food is very acceptable, and apart from this 1 issue with the parking we were generally happy with thefood cost/quality side of things.

As I said before , lesson learned for youngrovergirl.

Regular customer - Parking charge pain Got a surprise - RobJP

I must admit ... in my position, I would be asking if they were still going to be using the same 'parking management' company ... if the answer is yes, then I'd tell them that I'd not be using the vouchers or spending money there until it changed.

Any company which is willing to treat a regular paying customer like that does not deserve your custom.

Regular customer - Parking charge pain Got a surprise - oldroverboy.

Any company which is willing to treat a regular paying customer like that does not deserve your custom.

Well.. one way of looking at it, but surprisingly hard to find acceptable food round here, (and when on a previous visit i drove i did give in details,) and i see their point about people parking and not eating/drinking and offing into the town.

The public car parks will shortly be paying from 0800 to 2100. (they are actually quite cheap anyway compared to many other places.

Given the volume of complaints they are receiving, I am sure that some change is on the agenda.

In between, I think that the conclusion is satisfactory for me hic..

Regular customer - Parking charge pain Got a surprise - FP

I am very glad to hear of the outcome. If you hadn't complained, however, you wouldn't have been on the list to receive anything - so it paid off to make that effort.

I'm sure you are correct in thinking some change to the Hotel's parking management is on the way.

Regular customer - Parking charge pain Got a surprise - Simon

Use the vouchers, then take your custom elsewhere!!!